An article published today in the September issue of BIKE magazine has shown that windscreen pillars obstructing a driver's vision are likely to be a major factor in road accidents.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign, has joined forces with the editorial team of Britain's best selling motorcycling monthly magazine to highlight this serious, but largely unrecognised safety problem.

Road safety guru Paul comments:-

"This problem came to my attention way back in the early 80s. I was driving a car in London, turning right from a side road into a one way system. As I started to turn a motorbike literally appeared from nowhere. I managed to stop, but was intrigued and drove around the block again....it was instantly obvious that motorbikes were being completely obscured from view by my nearside windscreen pillar".

Rich Beach, News Editor of Bike magazine comments:-

"When Paul Smith raised the screen pillar issue with us, we were astonished by how little research has been done on the subject, but in the course of investigating and writing the Bike magazine feature, it became clear that it is a huge problem, and one that we need to draw attention to.

The research we have accessed indicates that a huge number of motorcycle accidents (almost 70%) involve a car, truck or bus, and that over 70% of these accidents were caused by "perception error" - all too often bikes are just not being seen".

The last official research in the UK into obstruction by windscreen pillars was carried out over 40 years ago in 1963. More recently, the Department of Transport studied "look but failed to see" (LBFtS) accidents, LBFtS being a contributory factor in 20% of all road accidents, however the possibility of windscreen pillar obscuration wasn't even considered.

Adam Duckworth, publisher of Bike feels that this is a massive safety problem, that has simply been overlooked

"Passenger protection is a obviously a priority for car manufacturers, but having looked at all the facts, we believe that accidents could be avoided in the first place if windscreen pillars were designed to allow optimum vision.

This is an issue that the entire motorcycling industry needs to get behind, as bikers are all too often the innocent victims. Indeed, the Motorcycle Industry Association (MCIA), and the British Motorcyclists Federation (BMF), are already taking our findings on board and have agreed to join forces with us to lobby the government and car manufacturers".

Volvo have displayed concept cars with "see-thru" pillars, although this was aimed at road safety in general not just the bikers.

I feel the bikers are a little selfish in this request for one mode of transport to adapt to them, instead of the other way round.

Driver education does help to get around most of the limitations in a car. How many people check their mirrors on any other occasion then when they want to overtake?

The pillars are quite chunky now, on most modern cars, but it isn't a hardship to just lean forward a little bit over the steering wheel, to get around the "blind spot"... I do it as a matter of course before most manouveres, just to check.

I'm no mathmetician, but there's got to be around 4" of "opaque" between the passenger window and the windscreen... I should think that without moving your head to realign the line of sight, that 4" would cover a damn big area of road/pavement/whatever when 100 yards away!

The pillars are quite chunky now' date=' on most modern cars, but it isn't a hardship to just lean forward a little bit over the steering wheel, to get around the "blind spot"... I do it as a matter of course before most manouveres, just to check.

I'm no mathmetician, but there's got to be around 4" of "opaque" between the passenger window and the windscreen... I should think that without moving your head to realign the line of sight, that 4" would cover a damn big area of road/pavement/whatever when 100 yards away![/quote']

Read the first paragraph of this, then check out the thumbnails down the right-hand side to see how big a blindspot a modern car can have... :(

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=103

Completely agree with all this. Modern cars and their pillars cause a major blindspot which I find particularly intrusive on roundabouts ... I have often found that they block out cars (not just motorcycles) :eek: . I guess i'm probably more aware of this than some of our youger drivers given that I have driven a lot of older cars which had much better vision all round (albeit with lousy crash safety for the car driver in comparison). I do think it is a major issue and well worth some research to find out its effects.

BTW - my wife's Ibiza is dreadful on this compared to my Octy ... I've quite often got worried when going around roundabouts with it - you can't even see the kerb in most situations :(

Many of the 'MPV' style cars suffer from this - even small cars like the Honda Jazz.

BTW - my wife's Ibiza is dreadful on this compared to my Octy ... I've quite often got worried when going around roundabouts with it - you can't even see the kerb in most situations :(

The cracker for me is turning right into my road where I live, because the road I turn off of, goes around a gradual right and downhill after the T. This is right in the pillar blind spot when I want to turn right, so I end up leaning over to the left to see down the road at whats coming, then leaning over to the right to check whats coming out my road, as I turn into it... Can be quite un-nerving but I guess I've learned to adapt to it.

BTW - I'd rather have the excellent crash protection in chunky pillars, as proven so well by myself back in January, than this be taken away and I don't need to move quite as much in my seat to be able to see. It really is such a small chore to move one's upper body around to see, compared to losing one's legs/arms/life in a nasty crash.

I feel the bikers are a little selfish in this request for one mode of transport to adapt to them, instead of the other way round.

Yes of course they are. Wanting to stay alive rather than being killed by some poor car driver who pulls out on you at a roundabout and gets his car bashed is clearly a very selfish point of view.......

Dear God.........

I have come across that problem on my octy, sometimes when I've been approaching a junction and the nearside pillar has completely hidden the car coming from my left at the right (or in this case wrong) speed.

Of course, in a few cases I have seen in the past, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with motor-bikers staying about 6" from the corner of your car waiting to overtake you. Or blatantly flouting the law and undertaking.

We've all seen it and I don't think any one party can be held responsible, we've all got to have more consideration for other road users. Except tractor drivers that is.

Of course' date=' in a few cases I have seen in the past, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with motor-bikers staying about 6" from the corner of your car waiting to overtake you. Or blatantly flouting the law and undertaking.

[/quote']

Correct. It has nothing whatsoever to do with that. There are good riders and bad ones just as there are car drivers. The issue is about a design flaw which creates a potential hazard for a very vulnerable group of road users.

Had an A2 as a hire car for a week last year, and found it terrible round london. Not only were the pillars quite thick, but being so far forward they became more of an issue as seemed to always be in the way of where I wanted to look when pulling out.

I thought it was just me at the time. Maybe not by the sound of it.

Yes of course they are. Wanting to stay alive rather than being killed by some poor car driver who pulls out on you at a roundabout and gets his car bashed is clearly a very selfish point of view.......

Dear God.........

I'm sorry, I didn't see the child step out from behind the car, I was still blinded by the oncoming bike with full beam on in daylight, and watching my mirrors for the nutter that keeps playing "peekaboo" between my left mirror, my central mirror, and my right mirror.

There are good and bad in all forms of transport, unfortunately I feel I see more bad bikers than good ones. It's a shame, as I'm sure there are many good ones, maybe the bad ones will listen to you?

There are good and bad in all forms of transport' date=' unfortunately I feel I see more bad bikers than good ones. It's a shame, as I'm sure there are many good ones, maybe the bad ones will listen to you?[/quote']

Why do I suspect that you've never ridden a bike.....?

Call this a gross over-simplification, but I'm sure a lot of motorcycle accidents would be prevented if 'filtering' was banned. AFAIK, it's actually a REQUIREMENT to pass your test. I know everyone wants to get from A to B as quickly as possible, but surely not at any cost. :confused:

While I'm on the subject, bad lane discipline by drivers of any kind of vehicle is really getting my goat right now!

Oop! Off on a tangent

Why do I suspect that you've never ridden a bike.....?

Because you see I have no desire to take the risks that a bike entails.

If I did ride (and I pillion with mates often enough, so I have seen this from a (safe) bikers point of view) I wouldn't play the aforementioned games, nor think the best time to enjoy a road is on a sunday afternoon when everyone is taking granny out to the countryside.

Also, I'd understand that even though my wheels are on the right side of the road, if I lean enough into a corner I can put my head in front of oncoming traffic, which those blasted car drivers should move to avoid.

Oh, double white lines don't apply to bikers, and overtaking must only be done approaching blind crests for that extra "thrill factor"...

Like I said, this isn't *all* bikers, but I see it too often.

Oh, and to finish off, there's nothinig like a biker that simply won't believe you are quicker than him and weaves side to side trying block your way.

The point Bike was trying to make was car manufacturers are exploiting a design loophole to make car 'a' pillars with a small non-opening window that is totally unnecessary other than to look 'more aesthetically pleasing'. The car shown was a people carrier style car, a new Seat I think.

I was nearly killed last month by some f**king moron car driver who decided to do a u-turn on the east lancs, on the blind side of a crest, and go the wrong way down it just to make his exit to the M60 he had just missed. Unfortunately for me I was travelling about 30 seconds behind him hit him head on as I came over the crest. His excuse to the police..."I didn't see him", he was going too fast" WTF

So yes Ian, even car drivers can be complete morons, and more so!

I think perhaps what is more noticeable is that most "morons" in cars are doing silly slow speed \ normal speed manouveurs, whereas most bike based "morons" are doing mach3 and hence have very limited scope for "emergency reactions".

Like I said in my first reply, many bikers come across as arrogant and selfish, they don't care if they blind you, or if you have to make allowances to save *their* hides, thats what winds me up more than anything. I'm of the same opinion of car drviers with main beam or cutting corners and making me change my line for them, but I see far less of them.

Don't know which part of town your from but I see boy racers zooming down the A6 all the time at silly speeds so that's the theory of silly slow drivers out, and as for blinding you with their lights, how many more f**ing times does someone have to say I didn't see you. Why can't they just admit they didn't even look!

M60 on a week day morning is full of cars cutting each other up and driving bumper to bumper. Funny thing though I haven't seen any bikes do that, just filtering like they are allowed to.

as for blinding you with their lights, how many more f**ing times does someone have to say I didn't see you.

And does main beam actually stop this kind of accident? I doubt it...the reason people don't see motorbikes is because of the size and profile, and that they seem to like sitting in blind spots.

All main beam does is dazzle other drivers in an anti-social manner, and makes it harder for other road users to concentrate and see what they're doing.

I also don't think these trendy blue/purple headlights which bikers seem to like are especially good for visibility...

Rob.

For your info I drive with my lights on full but dipped as do all bikers I know and pass on my travels. Yes having your lights on gives people a greater chance of spotting you in their side or rear view mirror and you are advised when taking you test to ride with your lights on full dipped.

Tinted lights I agree they are crap, along with tinted car lights and as for being blinded how many cars now have extremely bright xenon lights which are just as anti-social. You argument is deeply flawed

Because you see I have no desire to take the risks that a bike entails.

It's somewhat ironic that the majority of these risks exist because of the preponderance of deaf/blind/stupid drivers of cars/vans/buses and trucks on our roads.

Perhaps if it was mandatory that all road users, subject to being suitably able bodied, had to spend some time on two wheels before being demoted ( )to four or more, the standard of driving might be better. It might also lead to drivers having a much greater of appreciation of the needs of motorcyclists and perhaps even discriminating in favour of them as happens in some mainland European countries where large numbers of drivers commence their motoring careers on two wheels.

Yes there are bikers who ride to a poor standard, just as there are even more drivers who drive to at least an equally poor standard. That's no more an argument for discriminating against the relatively small number of motorcyclists on the roads than it is to discriminate against the much larger number of drivers.

I fear that your response to motorcyclists is an idiosyncratic emotional one, it would be more responsible and indeed honourable of you to discriminate in favour of a much more vulnerable group of road users and attempt to understand their needs and the risks which they face.

vulnerable group of road users .

Would those be the same "vulnerable" road users that hop on the road-going Superbikes every summer weekend and turn the roads of various parts of North Yorkshire (for example) into their own private race-track, thus turning various villages into effective no-go zones for pedestrians?

Frankly, a lot of bikers are as bad as the idiots who attend cruises, particularly the type that waits for the kids to leave home then spends his sudden windfall on a ridiculously fast bike, thinking that riding skills which have been dormant for 20 years will keep him in 1 piece.

Would those be the same "vulnerable" road users that hop on the road-going Superbikes every summer weekend and turn the roads of various parts of North Yorkshire (for example) into their own private race-track' date=' thus turning various villages into effective no-go zones for pedestrians?

[/quote']

As I already said:

Yes there are bikers who ride to a poor standard' date=' just as there are even more drivers who drive to at least an equally poor standard. That's no more an argument for discriminating against the relatively small number of motorcyclists on the roads than it is to discriminate against the much larger number of drivers.

[/quote']

Is it a "relatively small number of motorcyclists" though?

I see them in groups of 20+ on regular occasions and frankly they're a menace.

Fortunately the Police are stamping on them in a big way, and not before time.