Is it a "relatively small number of motorcyclists" though?

Since there are some 1.2 million motorcyclists in the UK, then yes, I suspect it is.

I wouldn't necessarily share your belief that those riders whom you describe as "a menace" are such. What criteria are you employing in making that judgement? Unless you yourself are a motorcyclists and have considerable experience of riding a high powered bike, you can have little conception of the performance parameters of todays bikes. What may appear to you to be a dangerous manoeuvre may, in fact, be an entirely safe and well judged piece of riding.

Overtaking on solid lines, bends, brows of hills.

Exceeding posted limits by stupid amounts.

I could go on...

Overtaking on solid lines' date=' bends, brows of hills.

[/quote']

I'll give you solid lines. However in a car you can't make a judgement of the sight lines available to an overtaking motorcyclist.

Exceeding posted limits by stupid amounts.

What do you classify as a stupid amount? I regularly see people quoting three figure speeds here on this site. Again, unless you're familiar with the performance capabilities of a superbike and indeed its rider, it's very difficult for you to make an informed judgement.

All the instances i posted are illegal and examples of dangerous driving whether it be in a car or on a bike.

Yes, car drivers break the limits too, but there have been countless accasions where i've been pushing it a bit only to be passed by a bike wanting to go even faster.

As for stupid amounts.

I've seen bikes doing at least 90+ on country roads (60 limit)

As for Dual Carriageways & Motorways, the sky would appear to be the limit.

I've seen bikes doing at least 90+ on country roads (60 limit)

Perhaps we're getting closer to the root of the differences in our opinions. If you think 90+ is fast on a country road then I'm not sure what you mean by "pushing it".

90 mph is little more than walking pace on a big bike.

90 mph is little more than walking pace on a big bike.

It's 30mph over the limit. Which is usually a ban if caught, and rightly so.

Just because your bike is capable of those speeds, it doesn't mean it's safe.

You are not the only people on the roads.

It's 30mph over the limit. Which is usually a ban if caught' date=' and rightly so.

Just because your bike is capable of those speeds, it doesn't mean it's safe.

You are not the only people on the roads.[/quote']

It sounds like you've bought the propaganda hook line and sinker. The equivalence between speed and safety is by no means as simplistic as that.

At the right time and in the right place speeds way in excess of that are entirely safe.

I'd suggest there might be an element of you making judgements about the performance capabilities of motorcycles and the abilities of their riders on the basis of the limitations of your own experience.

It sounds like you've bought the propaganda hook line and sinker. The equivalence between speed and safety is by no means as simplistic as that.

I lost an Uncle on a bike.

He thought he was the next Barry Sheene, just like all the others.

It's not a nice experience, so don't lecture me on "propoganda".

I lost an Uncle on a bike.

He thought he was the next Barry Sheene' date=' just like all the others.

It's not a nice experience, so don't lecture me on "propoganda".[/quote']

So we've established that your response is also an emotional one based upon your sad and untimely loss.

A less than rational appraisal of the balance between the joys of motorcycling and the attendant risks is understandable in the circumstances but I'd suggest that it's a view which should be kept to yourself and not foisted upon others. People die in trains, planes, cars buses trucks, on bicycles and horses every day. Are you so prejudiced against them?

I've been riding fast for the past 30 years and I'm still here.

It's based on a number of factors, the main one being that the majority of bikers seem incapable of using their machines sensibly.

It's based on a number of factors, the main one being that the majority of bikers seem incapable of using their machines sensibly.

And your empirical evidence for this is where?

And your empirical evidence for this is where?

2 things located in the front of my head, they call them eyes i believe

2 things located in the front of my head, they call them eyes i believe

How many of the UK's 1.2 million motorcyclists have you observed riding?

For how many miles and in what sort of traffic conditions have you observed them?

In which parts of the countries which form the UK have you carried out these observations?

How many instances per rider mile have you recorded of riders not using their machines sensibly?

How does this compare with control groups of drivers of specific groups of four and multi-wheeled vehicles and of a cross section of the driving public?

Who's definition of "using sensibly" are you applying in making judgements about the behaviour of these motorcyclists? If it's yours, how do you ensure that these judgements are free from bias?

I could go on.......

I lost an Uncle on a bike.

He thought he was the next Barry Sheene' date=' just like all the others.

It's not a nice experience, so don't lecture me on "propoganda".[/quote']

And with one comment, you've managed to eject yourself from the discussion, being demonstratably unable to seperate considered fact from a kneejerk emotional response.

If your uncle had choked on a peanut would you have stopped eating peanuts?

If he'd been killed in a car accident would you have stopped driving?

I doubt it.

FWIW, there are lots of bikers who ride like ****s. But then there are lots of car drivers who drive like ****s too. Come to think of it there are lots of ****s in all walks of life...doesn't mean you have to tar everyone with the same brush though.

How many of the UK's 1.2 million motorcyclists have you observed riding?

For how many miles and in what sort of traffic conditions have you observed them?

In which parts of the countries which form the UK have you carried out these observations?

How many instances per rider mile have you recorded of riders not using their machines sensibly?

How does this compare with control groups of drivers of specific groups of four and multi-wheeled vehicles and of a cross section of the driving public?

Who's definition of "using sensibly" are you applying in making judgements about the behaviour of these motorcyclists? If it's yours' date=' how do you ensure that these judgements are free from bias?

I could go on.......[/quote']

I am not a statistician, and to be honest i'm usually too busy watching out for muppets in their various guises to count.

Anyway, you're a biker at heart (obviously) and i'm not, so the chance of us seeing eye-to-eye is slim at best

As for "Mr Dazzle"..

First post and you jump in with both feet. Nothing like a polite "hello", is there?

Anyway' date=' you're a biker at heart (obviously) and i'm not, so the chance of us seeing eye-to-eye is slim at best.[/quote']

Indeed so. My perch is loftier than yours so I'm much more able to see what lies ahead. Which, I think, is where we came in..........

However, I've also been driving a car in a "brisk" manner for slightly longer than I've been riding a bike. I can tell you that it is possible to understand and appreciate both forms of transport and in fact doing so can enhance your enjoyment of both riding and driving.

The next time you're in Scotland drop me a PM and I'll take you out on my bike and scare the excrement out of you...... I mean induct you into the joys of motorcycling.......

I think we should all just agree to disagree on this. Those of us on this forum who ride bikes know the reasons for riding with lights on, how fast bikes accelerate compared to cars and how vulnerable we are when cars pull out on you. It’s all about making yourself seen and if any non-bikers were to try it they may understand why we do what we do.

But I think people should think before they criticise something they don’t fully understand and particularly when members of this forum arrange meetings to go and thrash their cars around various parts of the country, fit high powered bulbs in order to see further down the road, then criticise another group for doing just that, its called being a hypocrite.

I think we should all just agree to disagree on this. Those of us on this forum who ride bikes know the reasons for riding with lights on' date=' how fast bikes accelerate compared to cars and how vulnerable we are when cars pull out on you. It’s all about making yourself seen and if any non-bikers were to try it they may understand why we do what we do.

But I think people should think before they criticise something they don’t fully understand and particularly when members of this forum arrange meetings to go and thrash their cars around various parts of the country, fit high powered bulbs in order to see further down the road, then criticise another group for doing just that, its called being a hypocrite.[/quote']

I've been following this thread, and I must say there's never going to be any concensus, 'cos the trouble is, people base their opinions on their own experience. My previous posts highlight my thoughts on the matter, based on the one occasion I saw a near-miss. TBH, both the driver not checking over his shoulder, and the rider sitting in the blind spot were BOTH at fault.

I don't live in The Peaks or the Dales, so I don't encounter many Sunday leisure riders, but I can imagine that if you did, they might annoy you. Likewise, I don't ride a bike, so I'm not aware of the things that a rider would have to put up with.

:grouphug:, I think, and then time to slag off caravans, horseboxes, tractors, cyclists, etc. etc. etc.

Actually, no, please don't. The Briskoda server's already melted down once this last month :P

am joining this late....

but here is my 2p

I personally wont have a bike cos if i drove it like i do a car i would be dead... I have seen many very good bikers with broken machines/bones due to lack of care / consideration / vision by car/van/lorry drivers.....

equally i have seen a lot more really stupid manouvers (generally by kids / couriers) on bikes that deserved death but somehow got away with it...

blind spots do kill .. so does inattention and impatience..

and the 3 usually occur together... seem to recall a westfield at anglesey that was not spotted.... went off at 100mph plus and really frightened the driver.. but was a 50/50 incident in the cold light of day.... however if the car in fornt had been going faster the vehicle behind would never need to pass..

Tinted lights I agree they are crap, along with tinted car lights and as for being blinded how many cars now have extremely bright xenon lights which are just as anti-social. You argument is deeply flawed

No it's not, 'cos I think they're all c***s too...my argument wasn't car versus bike, it's people who don't use their lights properly. A lot of whom seem to be motorbikes and people in MPVs with foglights...

Rob.

I think we should all just agree to disagree on this. Those

You'll forgive me for disagreeing with you on this, but it's actually much too important for there to be disagreement. A large proportion of those people who only drive cages really need to raise the standard of their driving. The lives of motorcyclists are at risk.

Many drivers possess a minimal level of awareness of what is going on around them and have only the most basic levels of car control. A very large percentage of injuries to motorcyclists are caused by collisions with four wheeled + vehicles and in the majority of these, the fault lies with the driver.

Many drivers possess a minimal level of awareness of what is going on around them and have only the most basic levels of car control.

Many motorcyclists overtake dangerously, ride way above the speed limits and generally act like they have some kind of deathwish.

It cuts both ways...

Rob.

have you ever been to the "Ring"..

its a 13 mile educational course in why bikers do not live long.... however... i do agree that a great many die due to ignorance of other road users.. however you make it sound like this is directly aimed at bikers.... its not... they are the same ignorant c***s who cut me up on roundabouts and reverse in to me at tescos...

they need better training.. increase the cost of driving test to 5k make car tax 2k per annum.. keep all the untrained twerps in ****e slow cars off my road.

I know i am right so dont bother arguing with me....

Schtum,

It seems to me that you could easily transpose the words "driver" and "motorcyclist" in your post.

I would agree that a lot of drivers (be it motorcycle or car) have very limited road awareness. But this presents a hazard to everyone - not just motorcyclists.

How often does your average motorcyclist consider car drivers ? I ask because I usually make every effort to move out of the way of bikers (can only remember getting a wave of thanks twice), however sometimes this is not possible. On a busy dual carriageway for example where (in my judgement) there is not enough room in the inside line for me to move in and out again safely. Invariably the bike decides there is enough room for him - this action gets him in front but has probably caused consternation to at least 3 car drivers.

I'm not saying all bikers do this - but a fair number do. No - before you ask I'm not a biker.

Many motorcyclists overtake dangerously' date=' ride way above the speed limits and generally act like they have some kind of deathwish.

[/quote']

You're merely reiterating the sort of unsubtantiated comments made by MonkeyHanger. Read and understand my responses to him and you may become more aware of the flaws in your thought processes.