Didn't mean to be overtly pedantic but given the way NSL is enforced and the term was used, I thought I would mention it. Might save someone some points in the future

No, not at all - certainly something that needs to be kept in mind

Steve

Ah OK, we're into that technical area then are we?

I have sometimes pondered this one. By definition, I suppose the road in question above is indeed a single carriageway, as it has no interruption to the road surface between the edges of the highway boundary. It's just that it happens to have four lanes....

Definition: "A dual carriageway is a road or highway in which the two directions of traffic are separated by a central barrier or strip of land, known as a central reservation or median."

Steve

Whilst D/C are being memtioned -tale exists on an other forum of SCP using the differance between D/C and S/C with crawler lane to up their totals .Crawler lane recently put in to allow traffic to pass long queues of heavies (in safety ).Of course taken as DC -and tickets issued for excess of 68

Another strong recommendation of the Chris Gilbert DVD.

Oh and incidentally, on the dual carriageway point, did you know that a DC doesn't actually have to have 2 or more lanes in each direction?

Another strong recommendation of the Chris Gilbert DVD.

Oh and incidentally, on the dual carriageway point, did you know that a DC doesn't actually have to have 2 or more lanes in each direction?

Yes - as long as it's got a central reservation -that's all ---which stuffed up a few SCP s painting hatchings on 2 lane DC to try and make them look like S/C - with resultant (insinuated)reduction in limit .

Interesting how discussion has touched on 'currency' of Roadcraft, as it was something I discussed with Don Palmer when I met him last Summer. Apparently it's not been revised in any depth since it was written by Donald Campbell and Lord Somebodyorother (Snowdon?) in something like 1936. So while everything in there will improve your driving, not everything is optimal for a modern car. In particular, my IAM-influenced push-pull steering came in for some criticism, since there's no need to hold the wheel anywhere other than 1/4 to 3 and just steer for open road driving in a modern car, as power steering and the relatively-quick racks of modern cars mean that you'll only need more than 1/2 a turn either side of dead-ahead in a car park...

That's not to say it's not a great book; it's just not the be-all and end-all!

IAM is probably a much better way of explaining it than a video, with an instructor who already understands it explaining things, so probably the best bet. A little knowledge and all that! Or join the Police, work for several years and work your way towards an advanced police driver is the other way I guess?!

Pull, push has more to do with keeping control and smoothness and premision of turn at higher speeds, remembering that roadcraft is also for Police drivers who will obviously doing speeds greater than IAM members. Plus lower speed control etc. etc. (wont get too boring here!) Can see that it would be a matter for discussion though.

That's not to say that all things need looking at once in a while

Good read if you're interested in these things!

IAM is probably a much better way of explaining it than a video, with an instructor who already understands it explaining things, so probably the best bet.

Have to disagree, i ended up putting the IAM book on the top shelf and just concentrated on the video and roadcraft book. The IAM bloke that was asigned to me changed things as and when it suited him and left me in a lot of confussion.

Went out with scoobychris on here twice (once before going with the IAM guy and again just before the test). When I was shown how to do things at speed and practiced at a progressive pace (i love using the word progressive and making progress) i found everything clicked in more easily. When i then went for the test i spoked to the examiner about all the different approches there are (roadcraft, IAM, SAFED, Rospa, Etc) all he was looking for was a safe drive, no blues n twos driving in 2nd + 3rd on full rev range. he just wanted to see progress made with common sense and law abbiding drive, also to show your planning ahead, thinking etc. If you were to do a IAM test like in the roadcraft video the examiners will fail you and that was made clear.

Anyway back to what i was saying, when i did go for the test, because i was now restricted with Saturday shoppers and traffic and to keep within the speed limits what i had learnt and practice and taught at a progressive speed just snapped into place so easily at a slower pace and actually made things seem very easy. The examiner asked about my training so i said that i had been out a couple of times on runs with scoobychris and his response was "is he a serving officer?" nope. "was he trained by a serving officer?" not sure, "well thank him as he has taught you well". it wasnt till after the test i told him about the progressive drives and he told me its probably one of the reasons i did so well. My commentry was better and above the minimuim standards that the police require and was the best he had seen in a long time putting most serving officers to shame. He also mentioned he would expect me to drive at 80mph on a motorway in suitable conditions as officers would only take notice at 85 and above and only if the driving was dangerous and not suited for the traffic.

I would recommend looking at the IAM first quickly to see how they like things, concentrate on the roadcraft and dvd, practice with someone already qualified on sunday mornings while the traffic is light and everyone is in bed and gentle move it up to busy places and times, use the IAM book as reference every so often but not use it as the main book.

The reason for my recommendation of the IAM was around saying that its better to be taught by somebody in a practical manner rather than by reading the book and then replying on a video, be that by an IAM member, the people who will teach a level of road craft to members of the public or other means. Which your reply acutally appears to agree with albeit you say you disagree?

As I understand it IAM teach a level of roadcraft, thus my reasoning behind asking an IAM instructor to help put roadcraft in to a more practical frame.

A little knowledge....

Back to the original thread, Roadcraft, when taught is useful and an intersting read to those who may find it interested.

im not disagreeing but i guess its down to who you get allocated. IAM does have this attitude of you wont break the law in any kind of way and wont creep to 30.5mph in a 30mph etc. I would recommend for any member on here considering to go for their advance to post on here for a member living close to them to give them pointers and runs out.

Pull, push has more to do with keeping control and smoothness and premision of turn at higher speeds, remembering that roadcraft is also for Police drivers who will obviously doing speeds greater than IAM members.

I think Don's point was that push-pull may have been the safest and most accurate way of steering a Wolseley at speed, but isn't necessarily optimal in a Mondeo (say). He was very much of the opinion that someone driving 'his' way could lose a police pursuit driver following Roadcraft, assuming they were both in similar cars. Of course, he runs a business so everything like that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, but I guess the point is that push-pull obliges you to slacken the grip of one hand for all but the tiniest amounts of steering action, whereas maintaining a 'touring car grip' means both hands are on the wheel a lot more of the time.

But back to the original point, Roadcraft will make you a better driver - it probably only starts to lose its relevance if you're wanting to drive in a way that's not really suited to the public highway!

Yes - as long as it's got a central reservation -that's all ---which stuffed up a few SCP s painting hatchings on 2 lane DC to try and make them look like S/C - with resultant (insinuated)reduction in limit .

And, of course, effectively reducing traffic speed to 50ish (or even 40 if they'd been correct in their assumption), since no-one could overtake the wagon at the head of the queue.

Pull, push has more to do with keeping control and smoothness and premision of turn at higher speeds

I'm not sure that's true. Quite a few of the police instructors I've encountered advocate fixed grip for anything requiring less than 1/2 turn of the wheel precisely because it offers more precision (you know how much lock is applied and where the wheels are pointing), more control (your hands do not leave the wheel) and more smoothness (you are just turning into the corner and then undoing that). Pull/push was originally taught on cars with big steering wheels that had no power assistance so lots of steering was required to change direction. I think pull/push still has a place in a driving style and I use it on roundabouts, turning into junctions, etc where more than 1/2 turn of lock is required as well as having hands in the right place to use signals, etc.

Of course, some police schools still promote pull/push above all else, even on the skid pans, and some don't put any focus on steering techniques at all. Your mileage may vary

Chris

One thing that surprises me is just how many people try to use "fixed hands" when "push pull" would be more appropriate for the acuity of the (usually urban) turn they're making, and finish up on the wrong side of the road as a result!! :eek:

and to throw more confussion to the subject has anyone seen the training for police drivers using 4wd's like scoobys and mizzies? they actually told to speed up whilst cornering etc think police interceptors should it the other week. even the police officers with years of experience found it strange doing what theyve been taught not to do even through the cars can take it and handle it.

I'm not sure that's true. Quite a few of the police instructors I've encountered advocate fixed grip for anything requiring less than 1/2 turn of the wheel precisely because it offers more precision (you know how much lock is applied and where the wheels are pointing), more control (your hands do not leave the wheel) and more smoothness (you are just turning into the corner and then undoing that). Pull/push was originally taught on cars with big steering wheels that had no power assistance so lots of steering was required to change direction. I think pull/push still has a place in a driving style and I use it on roundabouts, turning into junctions, etc where more than 1/2 turn of lock is required as well as having hands in the right place to use signals, etc.

Of course, some police schools still promote pull/push above all else, even on the skid pans, and some don't put any focus on steering techniques at all. Your mileage may vary

Chris

It may differ nationally, but my experience is of push pull for road, and what ever works for when it goes wrong. The leading pull I feel gives a greater level of accuracy at high speed in particular. But bit of a side from finding a bargain in a book shop.

Most cars seem to respond better to being driven under acceleration through corners, which differs slightly from the Roadcraft advice which is to hold a constant throttle and maintain speed until the corner opens up.

One of the cases where this advice was officially given was when the police kept crashing their Volvo T5's with air suspension and as a result they were looking to pull them out of service.

Chris

The leading pull I feel gives a greater level of accuracy at high speed in particular.

It's an interesting topic and I'm sure no-one will mind the digression

Can I ask what sort of manouevre you're doing (how much steering is involved), what sort of speeds and how you're measuring accuracy so I can maybe compare how I'd approach it?

Chris

First thanks for the feedback, Paul. Glad to know I was teaching you the right stuff

If you were to do a IAM test like in the roadcraft video the examiners will fail you and that was made clear.

This was something I've seen mention of a couple of times and I'm wondering if there were specifics in the Roadcraft video that were seen as bad practice?

The RoSPA/police examiners I've encountered have expected drivers to use the "full potential of the vehicle" where safe and legal to make progress so long as it's delivered in a smooth and controlled way. An example would be joining an NSL road from a minor road, where you start from a stand still and need to get up to speed as quickly as possible but also as comfortably as possible.

Chris

I would echo that about the different car thing - as I mentioned before, the driving style best suited for a Wolseley or Austin was the basis of Roadcraft, so naturally drivers trained under it will at best be short of their car's potential if they're not prepared / able to digress from their training. Don't forget: braking = weight to front; accelerating = weight to rear...

Roadcraft is still the basis of most advanced driver training. Yes, its content dates back a long way, but it has stood the test of time. People like Sir John Whitmore are there to present the counter argument but the definitive text remains Roadcraft.

Interestingly Roadcraft hasn't preached exclusively pull-push for many years - my 1977 edition mentions fixed grip for smaller movements, just as the latest edition does.

It's an interesting topic and I'm sure no-one will mind the digression

Can I ask what sort of manouevre you're doing (how much steering is involved), what sort of speeds and how you're measuring accuracy so I can maybe compare how I'd approach it?

Chris

Hi mate, at all speeds. I know of the arguement about removing the hand from the wheel, but with feeding the hand around your always in contact. The speeds are up to what ever is safe for the road and that I am able to stop within the distance I can see for as the limit point changes. The steering obviously varies as the corner requires and to maximise the available view. I'm not an instuctor, and by no means should anything I say be taken as me instructing (legal disclaimer out of the way ) but I promise I know what I'm talking about (for once as the good lady would say!) I've never come across the fixed grip being taught around roadcraft, but it sounds an interesting idea. I feel that having the hand to pull as the corner requires allows greater precision for position (to maximise the view etc.) It was the way I was taught so I guess I'm bound to favour it.

I've not heard the theory that it's due to the old non PAS vehicles and can see why it would have its advantages there, but still feel the setting of corners etc. can still be best achieved by it. I also like the extra finese it gives (uh oh sounding a little sad suddenly!)

What you're describing is fine for a sweeping bend in one direction, and of constant radius. You can see all the way round, and so know how far to move your pulling hand around the wheel to prepare for the bend. Where this falls down is on an S-bend, or where the radius varies / can't be seen. In this instance, a fixed grip allows you to pull with whichever hand needs to by whatever amount is required, up to (realistically) about 1/3 of a turn either side of dead-ahead, or 1/2 a turn if you really end up surprising yourself (which you shouldn't! ) - you're just pulling down towards the bottom of the wheel, rather than down from the top...

You just repeat the process but pull the other way or pull more if the radius changes. There are obviously an endless number of corners, but this is the basics. With the push coming at the end if requied. It's easily adjusted as the limit point changes. I promise it works Has done for number of years now everyday and is widely taught to some of the most advanced road drivers in the country. Probably something best shown than read.

Pulling comes from no more than 12 oclock, set before the corner and will result in hands being in the correct position for the corner and adjusted as needed, with the push as required.

It's as per roadcraft, which you can get at a bargain price apparently...... see nicely linked back to the thread

Thanks for the detailed reply, Mark!

A couple of things which had me a bit confused. You mentioned that

I feel that having the hand to pull as the corner requires allows greater precision for position (to maximise the view etc.)

and then....

Pulling comes from no more than 12 oclock, set before the corner and will result in hands being in the correct position for the corner and adjusted as needed, with the push as required.

On the approach to a corner, how do you set the steering so your hands are in the correct position (presumably you're talking 10 to 2?) for the corner? Is the steering after the start of the corner? From the "adjusted as needed", I'm wondering if there's a bit trial and error there which may impact precision?

The main reason I favour fixed grip is because the only real means of communication between the tyre and the driver is feedback through the steering wheel so to break contact by taking your hands off the wheel is throwing away valuable information. I also like it because you only need to steer as much as necessary, ie as I enter the corner I can keep adding steering until I don't need any more, and then I can unwind it. Sounds very simple but I think it makes it more precise as there is no guess work. As you say though, it's hard to describe and really needs demo'ing to show it in action!

Chris

Hi

The initial gauging of the hands comes from practice initially, but in a addition once you are in the corner pulling a little more or releasing slightly adjusts the degree of turn. This allows for the change in corner or changing your positon in the road to maximse your view. With a pull being easier to maintain as your against the natural wieght of the vehicle in the corner (really easier to show than explain that bit!) As you exit the steering pulling back from the other side maintains a fee and controll. In addition, it's that sad sound of hand on leather (ew urh!) and you move the hand around that means you're still in contact with the wheel.

The wheel will for the most of the time remain with both hands and 1/4 to 3 with both arms straight, so in the event of immediate extra turning you have full range. You can still feel the wheel to road etc. It does take some adjustment, but once you've adapted fixed grip will seem very weird, (it did to me today when I tried it). I can see why in a racing enivorment for the set up for maximum required lock to left and right the fixed might be easier, but in relation to road craft and road driving this way works once it's clicked. You know you've got it when you a serious of pulls results in a smooth systemised drive through a set of bends.