i personally dont like doing corners fast (remember that chris from our drives) i beleive it all stems from having an accident 10 years or so ago when the car got most of the way round the corner and decided to just lose the back end. even with what i know know i want boot it around the corner and quite often take the corner slower than what i need to.

i personally dont like doing corners fast (remember that chris from our drives) i beleive it all stems from having an accident 10 years or so ago when the car got most of the way round the corner and decided to just lose the back end. even with what i know know i want boot it around the corner and quite often take the corner slower than what i need to.

I can understand that, since I once had a similar incident.

i beleive its like clarksons comment the other week about being in an accident first. once you have felt what its like you know you will get hurt and not be a bruce willis. therefore ive been there and know what an accident is like etc and therefore my brain is saying slow down we know what can/could happen and dont want a repeat.

I think maybe the best thing to unravel where I'm coming from is to point you here:

Don Palmer's Driving Handbook

In fact, the whole thing is worth a read, and is as cheap or expensive as your conscience permits!

i beleive its like clarksons comment the other week about being in an accident first. once you have felt what its like you know you will get hurt and not be a bruce willis. therefore ive been there and know what an accident is like etc and therefore my brain is saying slow down we know what can/could happen and dont want a repeat.

That would be the thing; the most hurt I was, having rolled a car at 60mph (well that's what I was doing when the back stepped out, and I'd been though that bend at 60 before) was a few seatbelt bruises, and a small cut from my glasses. I haven't really slowed down, except through that sequence of bends, and it's now been Shellgripped at the recommendation of the local Police constable because he had to deal with more single vehicle accidents on that sequence than on the rest of his 1_000miles^2 beat! Said constible thought the problem was tree sap which is completely invisible and unsmellable.

Edited 6 November, 200817 yr by KenONeill

Hi

The initial gauging of the hands comes from practice initially, but in a addition once you are in the corner pulling a little more or releasing slightly adjusts the degree of turn. This allows for the change in corner or changing your positon in the road to maximse your view. With a pull being easier to maintain as your against the natural wieght of the vehicle in the corner (really easier to show than explain that bit!) As you exit the steering pulling back from the other side maintains a fee and controll. In addition, it's that sad sound of hand on leather (ew urh!) and you move the hand around that means you're still in contact with the wheel.

The wheel will for the most of the time remain with both hands and 1/4 to 3 with both arms straight, so in the event of immediate extra turning you have full range. You can still feel the wheel to road etc. It does take some adjustment, but once you've adapted fixed grip will seem very weird, (it did to me today when I tried it). I can see why in a racing enivorment for the set up for maximum required lock to left and right the fixed might be easier, but in relation to road craft and road driving this way works once it's clicked. You know you've got it when you a serious of pulls results in a smooth systemised drive through a set of bends.

Another great reply

To give a bit of background, I actually came from doing pull/push originally (and reasonably well, apparently ) and was encouraged to explore fixed grip as an alternative on more flowing corners where less than half a turn of steering is required. We drove the same section of twisty road, first using my way, and then trying the instructor's suggestion.

Perhaps, it's the lazy side of me, but fixed grip for me offers a means of steering without needing to second guess how much steering is needed for a corner and because you're only turning the wheel as much as you need, no mid-corner corrections are needed either. It's also easy to switch from a right hand bend to a left hand bend without huge amounts of steering effort. It also allows for "hinting" too so you can start to steer that fraction earlier so that when you call on the tyres to change direction maximum grip is available.

I see you're reasonably local to me, so I'm more than happy to meet up and compare notes if you're interested

Chris

i personally dont like doing corners fast (remember that chris from our drives) i beleive it all stems from having an accident 10 years or so ago when the car got most of the way round the corner and decided to just lose the back end. even with what i know know i want boot it around the corner and quite often take the corner slower than what i need to.

I think the key is to understand what went wrong in the accident though, otherwise you'll be forever living in fear of it happening again. Was it definitely related to your speed, or was it down to coarse inputs, something you missed eg mud on the road, mechanical failure in the car, etc?

I think it's also interesting that it's only your corners which are affected whereas you could just as easily have an accident driving fast through a village and losing control, etc....

Chris

I'd not swear to exactly how I steer when, because I was taught shuffling formally in towns with second gear corners and fixed hold for less acute higher speed stuff more or less simultaneously.

What I normally do with fixed hold is slide my hands to where I think I want them, whilst still going straight, so that when I turn in my hands finish up at about quarter to three, and if I need to actively steer I've still got half a turn available either way without needing to reposition.

What I normally do with fixed hold is slide my hands to where I think I want them, whilst still going straight, so that when I turn in my hands finish up at about quarter to three

So, stepping back a second, how do you know how much steering you'll need as you approach the corner?

Chris

I think the key is to understand what went wrong in the accident though, otherwise you'll be forever living in fear of it happening again. Was it definitely related to your speed, or was it down to coarse inputs, something you missed eg mud on the road, mechanical failure in the car, etc?

I think it's also interesting that it's only your corners which are affected whereas you could just as easily have an accident driving fast through a village and losing control, etc....

Chris

erm easy back end spun round like a pendulum and everytime i steered into the skid on the zig zag bend the back would swing the opp way even quicker, in the end i braced myself before going up an embankment through some branches into a tree, span 180 before hitting the embankemnt on the otherside with the total sound of silence and blood and 3 windows missing, glass everywhere and having to punch out the drivers window as the doors were now knackered..

the roads were probably wet or turning icey or their was diesel on the corner. went through there everyday to get to and from work and its taken 10 years for me to drive through there in anything smaller than a lorry as the accident really made me scared to use that road (rather do the 10 mile detour instead). from that its always made me more weary of corners.

So, stepping back a second, how do you know how much steering you'll need as you approach the corner?

Chris

That's fair. My best answer is a mixture of experience, knowing the car, and knowing or reading the road. In any event, the goal is to end up with my hands at about 2:45 after the initial turnin, not at that precise value. So, if they finish up with the left hand at 47min and the right at 17 rather than at 45 and 15 it means I was slightly out on my initial judgment of acuity.

That's fair. My best answer is a mixture of experience, knowing the car, and knowing or reading the road.

An interesting exercise I took part in last weekend was trying to teach a learner how to approach and get round a corner and it made me realise knowledge and experience don't help them much!

Just trying to dig a little deeper, what's your thinking behind having hands at quarter to three during the corner, where are you getting on the power and at what point do you start repositioning them so that they're at quarter to three as you exit the corner?

Chris

the roads were probably wet or turning icey or their was diesel on the corner. went through there everyday to get to and from work and its taken 10 years for me to drive through there in anything smaller than a lorry as the accident really made me scared to use that road (rather do the 10 mile detour instead). from that its always made me more weary of corners.

Sounds very nasty! :(

But I think ultimately you need to identify how the accident happened in the first place or you'll never conquer it. From the description it sounds like you were just going too fast for the wet conditions so on a dry day with good visibility of the road surface, you're not going to encounter the same situation and could drive to the limit point of the road. Keep the inputs smooth and keep the car stable with the throttle and the corner will flow nicely.

Chris

An interesting exercise I took part in last weekend was trying to teach a learner how to approach and get round a corner and it made me realise knowledge and experience don't help them much!

Which is one place that a forum like this is valuable; it makes you think much more about stuff you normally "just do".

Just trying to dig a little deeper, what's your thinking behind having hands at quarter to three during the corner,

This allows me the maximum amount of additional lock on or off without repositioning my hands again, should it be required, say due to an unseen obstruction.

where are you getting on the power

I'll have taken up the drive to hold speed just before or as I turn in, unless I know or believe the turn to have a tightening radius. I'll start to accelerate as the vanishing point starts to open up out of the apex (or final apex for a multiple apex series)

and at what point do you start repositioning them so that they're at quarter to three as you exit the corner?

Chris

That's a bit trickier. I normally transition into a turn more sharply than I transition out of it, so lock comes off more gradually, quite possibly in a minishuffle series where my hands only move between ten to 2 and twenty to 4. Of course, in an S bend this changes as I reposition my hands whilst vanishing point 1 opens in order to apply the steering technique for turn 2 in the sequence.

everytime i steered into the skid on the zig zag bend the back would swing the opp way even quicker

Sounds like over-correction rather than a dodgy road surface (IMHO - I wasn't there, etc.).

Rob.

What an interesting and informative thread The video that Chris posted had me glued to it trying to spot everything before the driver mentioned it Even though it was an exercise and the officer is trained to a much higher standard than the average Joe, it brought it home to me exactly the amount of work the brain is doing when you are driving. The constant risk assessment and decision making needs the brain to be alert, something which some people don't give enough respect to I feel.

I have a confession. Sometimes for my own entertainment I have a competition with Mr P when I'm driving, that involves commentary much like the one on the video He also thrives on teaching me advanced skills but I'm still not comfortable pushing my car as much as he does. Although, I must admit the car seems most comfortable with it and responds remarkably well. I just find myself saying, 'Remember it's only standard, no decent ARB, suspension or brakes!!' Like Paul I have been in a couple of accidents that involved bends, I wasn't driving but it does stay with you because you have gone beyond the unknown.

Sounds like over-correction rather than a dodgy road surface (IMHO - I wasn't there, etc.).

Rob.

It probably was, but its made me appreciate more how little rubber is actually on the road and how easy it is for the rubber to lose it. However on rear wheel drive vehciles i have no problem as i know what to expect and how ro handle it (drift it like its hot lol). A few scarey moments with them which ends up being a little buzz . I beleive im more confident with FWD these days, but im certainly not going to ever race into a bend that i cant see more than my stopping distance in.

Got a photo somewhere in one of my daughters photo albums, passenger side looks brand new, but the front, o/s and rear totally totalled. to get out with a few cuts to the arms (from punching the windows out) at 50mph is remarkable and the police couldnt believe that i was the driver considering the damage to the car. The photo of the car has been a great way to educate my daughter on why a seat belt is so so important in a car and that if i hadnt been wearing one that i probably wouldnt be here now.

This allows me the maximum amount of additional lock on or off without repositioning my hands again, should it be required, say due to an unseen obstruction.

I'm keen to explore this a little more. If I'm driving around a right hand bend and need to avoid something, chances are I'd need more "right-hand" lock to tighten the radius. However, if I'm going into a left-hand bend and was in a similar situation, I'd also need more "right-hand" lock but this time to slacken off the radius. So fixed-grip on a left-hand bend seems to buy a lot more manoeuvrability on left handers than it does on right handers. Not something I'd ever considered before! I suppose the other question to ask is how much lock would one need to apply to avoid something. I'm guessing at speed it wouldn't be a whole lot as you'd be asking too much of the tyres and may fail to turn at all?

I'll have taken up the drive to hold speed just before or as I turn in, unless I know or believe the turn to have a tightening radius. I'll start to accelerate as the vanishing point starts to open up out of the apex (or final apex for a multiple apex series)

Ok so power is being applied at the maximum steering point, and as you start to unwind lock. That makes sense to me.

That's a bit trickier. I normally transition into a turn more sharply than I transition out of it, so lock comes off more gradually, quite possibly in a minishuffle series where my hands only move between ten to 2 and twenty to 4. Of course, in an S bend this changes as I reposition my hands whilst vanishing point 1 opens in order to apply the steering technique for turn 2 in the sequence.

So if we imagine coming out of the corner, at what point do you know you're finished steering? Is there a conscious relationship between how much throttle you're applying and how the steering is unwinding?

Chris

I'm keen turn at all?

As it so happens, I recently put this into practice. I was in a long right hander (so long you can't see the exit from the entry, and found a dead deer in the middle of my lane. I braked a bit in my lane because there was a possibility of on-coming traffic, and put on another 30deg of right lock to steer round it as I approached. In this case I wouldn't have needed to reposition my hands to add the extra lock, but I had a significant safety margin of unused arm travel. Please don't ask what my base lock was, because I honestly can't remember that; it's a "usual occurance" since I've driven that road 3 or 4 times a year for the last 12, and a few times before that: I remember the deer because it's an unusual occurance.

So if we imagine coming out of the corner, at what point do you know you're finished steering? Is there a conscious relationship between how much throttle you're applying and how the steering is unwinding?

Chris

Not sure I understand the question as posed so I might not answer what you meant!

I start easing lock either when I can see the vanishing point opening into the straight, or when I can see it's safe to allow the car to run wide on the exit, even if I can't (legally) accelerate.

Not always; I may never use full throttle when accelerating, even when the steering is straight, and drive very much by the seat of my pants. In fact, I can't play driving video games as a rule, because it's like trying to drive whilst under general anaesthetic!

Chris, as you come out of the corner, the "reverse pull" for want of a better term can be used to straighten up. This is obviously all dependant on the limit point of the corner and what it's telling you. This technique would help you have more option if you need to steer hard, (brake avoidance (which if you get a chance to learn on a skid pan I can recommend) etc. ) then having your hands a 1/4 to 3 helps.

The only other point is that, in theory, you should be able to brake in the distance you can see, but the above takes in to account deers, ufo's etc

Mark

I did 300 miles of driving over a selection of types of roads over the weekend and realised that the majority of bends require a lot less steering than I'd appreciated before. In fact, I think most of them required less than 30 degrees of lock and the majority required maybe 15 degrees so even with fixed input there's 150/210 degrees of lock available for course changes which surprised me!

My point about knowing when you'd finished steering was more to do with how you unwind the lock coming out of the corner as Ken describes it quite nicely as "mini-shuffles" to keep hands at quarter to three. With fixed grip, you know when you've finished steering as your hands return to the quarter to three position

I'm not convinced about limit point being directly related to steering technique as either method should place the car where you want to

Chris

I'd say that's probably mostly true. Certainly I'd regard "finished until the next turn" as When the wheel returns to straight ahead. I'm not entirely sure exactly how I pick up when that is, although I know some competition drivers have a contrast mark on the rim.

I think steering is more complex than we realise; Vanishing Point movement towards/away from you and vehicle lateral movement and attitude in the road are factors we consider, but not all consiously!

One I found in the Don Palmer text that I've been doing since hooning about on a pushbike, and only just realised I do is "aiming for the gap", rather than "aiming to miss the obsticle". It certainly accounts for why I will put a big car through narrow gaps at speed when other drivers in smaller cars brake for the same gap!

I did 300 miles of driving over a selection of types of roads over the weekend and realised that the majority of bends require a lot less steering than I'd appreciated before. In fact, I think most of them required less than 30 degrees of lock and the majority required maybe 15 degrees so even with fixed input there's 150/210 degrees of lock available for course changes which surprised me!

My point about knowing when you'd finished steering was more to do with how you unwind the lock coming out of the corner as Ken describes it quite nicely as "mini-shuffles" to keep hands at quarter to three. With fixed grip, you know when you've finished steering as your hands return to the quarter to three position

I'm not convinced about limit point being directly related to steering technique as either method should place the car where you want to

Chris

Chris,

There should be no need for "mini shuffles" with push and pull apart from when parking or slow speed large angled corners really. In the norm you will just be pulling back to straight or what ever the road does next.

So if coming out of a right hander, the left hand moves the appropriate distance up the left of the wheel and pulls down until both hands are back at quater to three. (hope that makes sense?!?!?)

With regards to limit points, there obviously more about being able to gauge the correct speed for the corner and then acceleration, which in turn will relate to you being able to see when you need to straighten.

And then there's limit points and position in relation to each other..... another big subject in itself

There should be no need for "mini shuffles" with push and pull apart from when parking or slow speed large angled corners really. In the norm you will just be pulling back to straight or what ever the road does next.

I think Ken's point was that he wants to have his hands at quarter to three for as much time as possible which leads to the mini shuffles....

So if coming out of a right hander, the left hand moves the appropriate distance up the left of the wheel and pulls down until both hands are back at quater to three. (hope that makes sense?!?!?)

Yep that makes sense but doesn't that contradict using pull/push because it gives you the maximum amount of steering should something go wrong?

And then there's limit points and position in relation to each other..... another big subject in itself

That's very true!

Chris

Actually, I may have over-emphasised the mini-shuffles, which only happen on long corners that open gradually over several seconds; I'll probably move my hands about half-way and then steer for one that "just opens", accepting that that means they have to go through ahead and then be repositioned once the car is straight.

What this really proves of course is that steering a car is a very complex subject.

Actually, so is overtaking, since it involves doing integral calculus in your head in real time to determine "can I make this move?"