Unfortunately people like to overtake just before blind bends. Being faced with a car on your side of the road on a NSL single carriageway when you come around a corner is no fun at all.

The only time I would consider this is entering a faster limit, mainly NSL, and I would begin my acceleration as soon as the car's indicator went on rather than when they were in the process of overtaking and along side me, with the view that I'm not going to be holding them up. If they keep pace and continue the overtake, I'll be backing off to assist them but most of the time they'll just pull in and follow at a good distance

However, contrast that to a similar situation entering a 30mph limit. How many hazards are there and what is an appropriate speed to allow you to deal with them and stop safely if you need to? Where are your escape routes to help you deal with them and would these be compromised by someone overtaking you? Is it worth going above the appropriate speed to (temporarily) deal with a tailgater?

Chris

I'd just always let them past, even if it means lifting off to maintain space. I'd rather have them where I can see them more easily and take avoiding action.

Edited 19 May, 200917 yr by cjb
clarification

A couple of times i have been in situations where the tailgater has been up close behind me and i'm sticking to the speed limit.The tailgater pulls out and accelerates past me getting into the lane of oncoming traffic to over take me. A very dangerous and stupid thing to do. On a couple of occasions when i have seen this coming i've waited just as the car pulled out from behind me and just as this is done I start accelerating.

:eek:

Say I am doing 70 in the leftmost available lane and some oxygen thief is doing 60-65 in the middle lane, I thought it was OK to forgo the hassle of going two lanes out then back in just to get round the mouth breather?

I guess whether it's right or not is a judgement call

The biggest danger during an "undertake" is that the chap in the middle lane wakes up, maybe because of a fast approaching or aggressive driver in lane 2 behind them, realises they're sat out in the middle lane and returns to lane 1. Chances are they won't be expecting someone to be in lane 1 so will they look before moving over? What's the best way when they start moving to let them know you're in lane 1 and they're going to hit you? Horn is pretty ineffective at motorway speeds and unless it's dark, chances are they won't see your main beams. Hard shoulder is a possible escape route if needed?

At the end of the day, you're trying to cut down as much risk as possible and imho, it's safer to predictably overtake them using lane 3 and back than just slipping by them in lane 1, but that might just be me

Chris

I'd just always let them past, even if it means lifting off to maintain space. I'd rather have them where I can see them more easily and take avoiding action.

Would you consider an overtake further down the road when they were holding you up or would you prefer to keep them in front of you to manage them?

Chris

Unfortunately people like to overtake just before blind bends. Being faced with a car on your side of the road on a NSL single carriageway when you come around a corner is no fun at all.

This raises an interesting point. As you approach a corner, you have a view into it which may range from none-at-all (ie severe bend) to 100% (nice open sweeping bend). So, as long as your speed is such that you can stop in the space you can see (ie up to the limit-of-vision point) you should be safe if anything untoward is waiting for you as the view unfolds? Do you have an escape route that you can use, or is there no way out?

Well that's all well and good if the untowardness is stationary, but what if it's moving, like an overtaking car? Maybe setting the approach speed so that you can stop in half the distance you can see to accommodate your braking and their braking when they see you? Maybe there are clues as you approach the corner that something isn't right before you even get a view? Screeching of tyres, loud exhausts/engines revving, horns? Or maybe there's nothing and you have to trust things to fate :(

Chris

So, as long as your speed is such that you can stop in the space you can see (ie up to the limit-of-vision point)

Surely if we were being 100% safe you would say you have to be able to stop in half the distance you can see.. if another car is approaching from the other way at the same speed you need to both stop before the halfway point between the two cars to avoid a head on collision .

Would you consider an overtake further down the road when they were holding you up or would you prefer to keep them in front of you to manage them?

Chris

Depends. If I thought there was a good chance of leaving them *far* behind (or to overtake another as well so as to have a buffer) then I might try an overtake. If not, I'd put up with them. It's a judgement thing really: where are they most annoying and/or dangerous

I guess whether it's right or not is a judgement call

At the end of the day, you're trying to cut down as much risk as possible and imho, it's safer to predictably overtake them using lane 3 and back than just slipping by them in lane 1, but that might just be me

Chris

I'd agree- in fact that's what I usually do. In the event of going for the undertake, I suppose the thing to do is make sure the hard shoulder is clear, and keep watching the idiot.

Surely if we were being 100% safe you would say you have to be able to stop in half the distance you can see.. if another car is approaching from the other way at the same speed you need to both stop before the halfway point between the two cars to avoid a head on collision .

I'm guessing you only read half of my post :P

Chris

I'm guessing you only read half of my post :P

Chris

maybe, but I was reading in a rush between other things so do forgive me

i honestly believe overtaking needs to become part of the driver training given by all instructors, as this sitting on peoples *** and weaving in and out trying to look imo is ridiculous and happens all to often. safe overtaking takes a lot of skill and sitting on someones *** is imo one of the worst ways the then overtake. my car has just over 200bhp and i still take a run up to overtakes to reduce the time i am exposing myself to on-coming traffic. just pulling out and then accelerating adds a lot of time onto an overtake unless your driving something like a veyron.

I used to tail gate when i was younger but that wasnt because i was trying to push past it was just because i was a tit. now i see there is absolutely no point in it and the only times i do get close to people is when they pull out onto a main road and seem to forget to accelerate, i know this is childish but i hope that maybe theyll either pull out next time when there is a larger space to accomodate for there acceleration or use the loud pedal a bit more.

i honestly believe overtaking needs to become part of the driver training given by all instructors, as this sitting on peoples *** and weaving in and out trying to look imo is ridiculous and happens all to often. safe overtaking takes a lot of skill and sitting on someones *** is imo one of the worst ways the then overtake. my car has just over 200bhp and i still take a run up to overtakes to reduce the time i am exposing myself to on-coming traffic. just pulling out and then accelerating adds a lot of time onto an overtake unless your driving something like a veyron.

Is oncoming traffic the only hazard you need to contend with?

Btw, my car has 100bhp and I can overtake most things safely without taking a run up

Chris

Is oncoming traffic the only hazard you need to contend with?

Btw, my car has 100bhp and I can overtake most things safely without taking a run up

Chris

no but id say it one that you need to be most aware of!

my point was more i was always told to reduce my time as much as possible on the oncomming traffics lane by using a bit of a runup to reduce it. having been in cars when people just pull out to then only then start to accelerate to overtake i know what id rather do.

i know that this isnt the perfect rule and not always possible but as a general rule i cant see it being a bad one.

I would say you have two things which are important (and related). a) where you're going to "land" after the overtake and is there enough room to get there taking into account oncoming traffic, junctions, etc.

So, for an overtake to be on, you need those two bits of information before you can commit to it. If you're taking a run up, where are you committing to the overtake, ie where is the last point at which you can change your mind and abort it. I'd wager it's before the point where you have all the information and can *see* where you're going to pull back in so are you actually increasing your TED by using the banana overtake method, especially with a significantly higher closing speed that the target car?

An example to try and put it in context. I see a car doing 40mph on a single carriageway road and I've decided to overtake him as I can do 60mph and dispense with him quickly. I've had a look and it's a straight road with no junctions or driveways that I can see (although the car is blocking my view ahead somewhat) but I can see there's a car coming towards me in the distance. I decide there is enough space to comfortably overtake so I go for it using the banana method.

However, once I'm halfway through the overtake I see a big bit of debris in the road where I want to pull back in. I don't have enough road to go past the debris as there is the oncoming car. I don't know how the target car will react - has he seen the debris? Will he swerve at the last minute and hit me? Is braking an option? Maybe - but where will I go in front or behind the target car? What if someone has closed up behind the target car? What if someone is following me through on the overtake?

Perhaps an extreme example, but it highlights the importance of leaving the overtaking decision as late as possible until all the information is available and also that TED is not just limited to oncoming traffic.

FWIW, overtaking is taught as part of the Roadcraft syllabus to advanced drivers but with ever decreasing speed limits, opportunities to practise it legally are difficult to come by in a one hour drive and I've seen some shocking overtaking by advanced drivers as a result. Something I try and instil in them is that it's never a bad decision to turn down an overtake but that the decision making process itself is vital. A decision of yes/no/maybe can't be made without all the information being available imho.

Chris

There's a difference between "weaving about" and "taking up a position on the road affording the best view". As advanced drivers we try to make discreet progress without alarming or annoying those drivers we overtake. This involves closing to a "contact" position at times when there may be an imminent overtaking opportunity, and dropping back to a comfortable following distance when there won't. The overtaken driver should never feel their road space has been infringed upon, or that they've been subjected to any kind of danger, and certainly should not have to alter their course or direction to accommodate the overtaker, except to maintain a steady speed and not deliberately make things difficult (and therefore dangerous) for them.

I'm going to employ your overtake technique from now Chris, see how it fits.

I've come through the curtain of rain under an overpass on a dual carriageway in a storm to find a fridge-freezer lying on the road.

Crapped myself, avoided it, (I was going slower than usual because of the reduced visibility) and pulled over as soon as I could to call the police.

By the time I had got through to them some clown had already smashed into it at 85.

Since then I have been really conscious of debris in the road, then a month ago I came off a roundabout in traffic in the right lane and kerbed my left front alloy and ruined the tyre on a chunk of concrete.

Couldn't see it for the other cars and none of the other cars reacted to it so I can only assume they weren't even looking.

I do find that I am a much better driver now that I am older, I used to be a total berk.

I raced mountain bikes when I was younger and had no fear at all, then 12 years ago I was in a pretty horrific crash. When I got out of the hospital I found that not only was I frightened of going fast on the bike I was also much more frightened of all risk.

I drove slower, couldn't compete on the bike any more and had to give up my job as a bouncer due to perceived risk.

I have slowly got better at things like that but all my old friends from back then just call it "the fear" some of the others have it too. It's wierd.

Driving lorries and riding a (road) bike to work have made me a methodical and observant driver but smooth and quick are things I aspire to.

Driving lorries and riding a (road) bike to work have made me a methodical and observant driver but smooth and quick are things I aspire to.

Not sure whereabouts you are in the world, but if you're ever down Hampshire/Wiltshire way give me a shout and I'm happy to go for a drive and see if we can work on pace and smoothness

Chris

using the banana overtake method

Chris, is there somewhere that is explained? I did a search

a fridge-freezer lying on the road.

Nasty.

When I got out of the hospital I found that not only was I frightened of going fast on the bike I was also much more frightened of all risk.

That's called getting older .

FWIW, overtaking is taught as part of the Roadcraft syllabus to advanced drivers but with ever decreasing speed limits, opportunities to practise it legally are difficult to come by in a one hour drive and I've seen some shocking overtaking by advanced drivers as a result. Something I try and instil in them is that it's never a bad decision to turn down an overtake but that the decision making process itself is vital. A decision of yes/no/maybe can't be made without all the information being available imho.

One problem I'm very aware of is that where I usually drive there are very few A-road overtaking opportunities, so it's difficult to become proficient at it at those kind of speeds- when I go on holiday I find that I'll pass over an opportunity and someone in a 1.3 Escort will come past. I suppoose it's better than having a head-on , but it is something I'd like to improve. As you say, roads these days make it hard to find a good place.

That's called getting older .

Yeah, I feel it.

Chris described that teqhnique earlier:

If you're looking to complete an overtake' date=' what information do you need? Imho, you need to be able to see where you're going to "land" after the overtake, including the condition of the road, any puddles, debris etc, which might affect things as well as entrances, junctions, driveways, etc that might present a threat during an overtake.

So stepping back, if I need to be happy with all of the above, I need to position myself on the road so that I have all the information and I almost certainly won't have all the information if I'm following a vehicle and accelerating towards it, effectively shutting down my view ahead on approach, especially with a larger vehicle.

The "banana" overtake is the traditional overtaking method but how about trying the following?

- Close from a following 2 second distance to a 1 second distance and position close to the centre line to give a view of the oncoming traffic

- If it's clear, without changing speed, move to the offside to assess the overtake and take in the full uninterrupted view ahead

- You are now presented with 3 choices, yes/no/maybe. If it's yes, then you can get the hammer down and complete the overtake. If it's no, you can pull back in behind the target car without needing to brake or change speed. If it's maybe you can stay out until it becomes a yes or no.

With this approach, you're not constantly on the brakes or accelerator which may be seen as intimidating and you also benefit from a view of the whole scene ahead of you before committing. Of course, the "banana" is still a useable technique, especially on open roads with excellent views, but in comparison, the point of commitment is far earlier so you have to have decided it's safe and that the target car is steady much earlier in the cycle.

[/quote']

From what I understood the "Banana" is doing what I was doing, speeding up in the left lane then out and in as quick as possible.

The method he describes above gives you more options for a safe abort.

Not sure whereabouts you are in the world, but if you're ever down Hampshire/Wiltshire way give me a shout and I'm happy to go for a drive and see if we can work on pace and smoothness

Chris

Sounds good, I have been reading some of your other threads, are you a roadcraft instructor or did I pick that up incorrectly?

Perhaps I can come down for one of your courses?

I used to spend a lot of time in the Andover area, mostly in tanks mind...

Edited 19 May, 200917 yr by amateurstuntman
Tidying up the v-code formatting

The quality of roads these days is so dire that I spend far more concentration on looking for potholes than is probably advisable or should be necessary - the upside is that hedghogs, lumps of concrete and occasional pheasants stand a slightly better chance!

What you're saying makes perfect sense Chris, and reading this advice before has changed the way I overtake, while I do still prefer to have a run up if possible I'm much more aware of the possible need to abort so leave the commit as late as possible. What this discussion highlights I think is the danger of familiarity with roads, I *know* where there is a very brief overtaking opportunity so I'm more likely to be ready to go and actually less prepared for any eventuality - as I come round the bend and the view opens up I'm looking for oncoming cars and if there isn't one I'm off. But as you say, is that the only threat?

I do not recommend this but I know a man who does and has. He keeps a pile of coopers to hand then ejects them above and behind, well he says it works.

Steve.

Chris, is there somewhere that is explained? I did a search

It's probably a term I heard somewhere and adopted A banana overtake is basically where you follow a line in the shape of a banana around the target car so you begin your acceleration phase (and commit to the overtake) as you approach and then you swing out, overtake, and then swing back in. It's the common style of overtake you see on the roads and can be used where there is ample visibility of the road ahead (eg open bends or downhill/uphill, etc) and the "banana" is finding a gap in oncoming traffic.

One problem I'm very aware of is that where I usually drive there are very few A-road overtaking opportunities, so it's difficult to become proficient at it at those kind of speeds- when I go on holiday I find that I'll pass over an opportunity and someone in a 1.3 Escort will come past. I suppoose it's better than having a head-on , but it is something I'd like to improve. As you say, roads these days make it hard to find a good place.

I think the key to overtaking is looking for, and in some cases generating opportunities, so that you have the choice whether to take them or not, rather than "missing" them. Very easy to say, I know A few things which might help identifying overtaking opportunities that might be in the not too distant future...

- solid white line systems tend to break at the apex of a corner or on the crest of a hill - being in the "contact" position at this point might pay off

- look at where the road goes - hedges, lampposts, telegraph poles, etc *may* give away straights where an overtake may be on

- downhills - most people tend to lift off and slow down so this is often a good opportunity to slip past peopel

- lanes of least resistance approaching roundabouts and traffic lights, etc

Of course, as I said earlier, it's never wrong not to overtake

Chris

Sounds good, I have been reading some of your other threads, are you a roadcraft instructor or did I pick that up incorrectly?

Perhaps I can come down for one of your courses?

I used to spend a lot of time in the Andover area, mostly in tanks mind...

Let's just same I'm an enthusiast who's had a bit of training ... hmm aren't they the most dangerous ones :rofl: ... and I've coached a few people in the ways of Roadcraft. The driving days I've arranged tend to be informal where the aim is to have some fun and hopefully pick up a few hints and tips along the way rather than an end to end course. I haven't picked a date for the next one yet but there will probably be one in the autumn. Alternatively, if you're free on the 6th June, a friend is running one based in Newbury and I'm happy to ask him to pair us up ...

Chris

I'll see what the long haired colonel says, she runs the diary...

Sounds good though, bit of a drive from here which isn't a bad thing. I used to live in Thatcham near there.