The organisation I work for has the splendid idea of a "learning grant" which is £250 to spend on some sort of personal course/training/tuition etc.

The snag is that it has to be (at least indirectly) beneficial to the organisation - so they won't pay for piano lessons for instance - but it does explicitly say that advanced driving lessons are regarded as beneficial as people drive on business. We don't get extra time off to do it, though.

So I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations on advanced driving training or courses that I could go on, ideally in the Midlands area?

I do drive quite a lot (over 30,000 miles a year for the last few years) so any bad habits I have will sadly be quite ingrained!

Thanks for your help:thumbup:

I guess the first question is what are you hoping to get from a course (and what is your employer expecting for their £250 ).

A few options.....

At the bottom end of the price scale, you have IAM/RoSPA which is based on Roadcraft and is around £100 for as many lessons as it takes to get you to test standard, and a test. Timescale is typically 6-8 observed drives, each lasting between 1 and 2 hours. End result will be a recognised advanced driving qualification.

In the middle of the price scale, you've got companies like RideDrive which is a network of ex and serving class 1 police drivers who will give you an intense day's tuition in the ways of Roadcraft. You'll get a certificate at the end of the day, but possibly will want a few sessions to develop what you've learnt.

At the top of the price scale, you have people like The Hairy Don who will teach you all about limit handling. He used to do a Road Driving course, but sadly has given that up :( No certificate at the end of this, but you will look at driving in a whole new light to put it mildly

Chris

Edited 16 January, 200917 yr by ScoobyChris
Alcohol!

there is many courses out there a few include, advance driving (IAM/ROSPA), defensive driving ( a course previous companies use to put us on yearly), a driving assesment/correction (find the faults and try and work them out of you), SAFED (safe and fuel efficent driving).

Like Chris has said you need to identify what the company wants from it (lower insurance bills, fuel economy, etc) and once that has been done go from there.

Thanks for your replies.

I think their justification for paying for advanced driving would be that it's safer and more fuel-efficient. So I'm not sure how they'd react if the name on the receipt was "The Hairy Don":rofl:

My employer doesn't pay for my insurance (it's my own car) and I don't think I need to have a certificate at the end to show them (although that does appeal to me anyway).

I think their justification for paying for advanced driving would be that it's safer and more fuel-efficient. So I'm not sure how they'd react if the name on the receipt was "The Hairy Don":rofl:

Can't comment on the efficiency angle, but Don's course down at Brunters is ostensibly about being able to manage the car in fast turns and when doing snap manoeuvres at high speeds - it'd certainly make you better able to cope with an emergency situation on the motorway like something falling off the back of a lorry... Whether this is sufficient justification for your works, I don't know - and you'd have to find some extra cash for it. But it's definitely worth doing!

I think their justification for paying for advanced driving would be that it's safer and more fuel-efficient. So I'm not sure how they'd react if the name on the receipt was "The Hairy Don":rofl:

I'm sure he could use a pseudonym if you'd rather

Sounds like IAM/RoSPA would be a good starting point then and safety and better fuel economy are mentioned in the blurbs I think if your company needs justification. Both are based around the same syllabus of Roadcraft although I think the IAM have named their version of it "How to be a better driver" or similar.

IAM is more widely recognised but only gives a pass/fail after the exam. RoSPA (or ROADAR) give you a fail/bronze/silver/gold grading and also a full report on the drive, things you did well and things to work on/improve. The company I work for only recognise IAM, but they promise to reimburse your Skills For Life package on successful completion of the test.

The other advantage of a certificate is that it may help get you an insurance discount (around 25% on my last couple of policies).

Chris

have a look for a couple of local groups (a rospa and a iam one) and go along to one of their meets, mention you looking at becoming a member but want to see what its all about, that way you can see before you part with your cash :thumup: i did that just to make sure what i was about to spend my money on was what i wanted or not.

Don's course down at Brunters is ostensibly about being able to manage the car in fast turns and when doing snap manoeuvres at high speeds - it'd certainly make you better able to cope with an emergency situation on the motorway like something falling off the back of a lorry...

Well I do do lots of motorway miles so that's certainly worth thinking about.

How many of these courses use your own car (I have visions of discovering how to roll a standard Fabia Mk1 Estate )?

How many of these courses use your own car (I have visions of discovering how to roll a standard Fabia Mk1 Estate )?

Don encourages people attending his course to do it in their own cars, but he has an arrangement with a performance car hire place if you fancy something a bit exotic. Even on stock suspension, you'd have to be extremely unlucky to roll the car unless you hit something (which on a runway the size of Brunters's is highly unlikely!), although I suppose you could do it in a hire car on the QT if you wanted to be completely sure. The baby racing drivers doing practical training are often to be seen in Hertz Astras, apparently!

There is plenty of tyre-killing potential, though, if you don't keep your eyes and ears open when he's teaching!

Anyway, I did a write-up of the course here, if you want to know more...

Welcome David. You can't go far wrong with IAM or RoADAR (RoSPA). The Worcestershire Advanced Motorists group (Advanced Motorists Worcestershire) are particularly active, although my vote would be for RoADAR for the extra grading offered and the triennial retests. There's a list of groups in your area here: RoSPA Advanced Drivers and Riders : Local Groups : West Midlands

I think it's probably worth clarifying the differences between the IAM/RoSPA and Don course.

IAM/RoSPA is focussed exclusively on road driving and will be done in your own car. It will equip you to be able to drive in such a way that you should significantly reduce the chances of getting into a situation where you need to take evasive action.

Don's course is exclusively focussed on limit handling driving and will be done in the car you turn up in. It will equip you to know what a car feels like before, on and over the limit and ways of managing that. It'll also teach you about steering and how to brake quickly and effectively. Very useful. I did a few days with Don in the Mondeo and the worst you'll do is spin and run off onto the tarmac. If you go at this time of year when it's icey/damp you'll save your tyres and also be able to experience things at lower speeds.

Apogee's excellent review ties in very closely with my experience of the day

Chris

Good point there - and I think one expressed by someone else on here recently (so apologies if their definition is better than mine):

An advanced driver (and therefore the syllabus of an advanced driving course) will use his/her training to ensure that he/she never comes close to losing control of their car;

A performance driver (and therefore the syllabus of a performance driving course) will use his training to learn how a car behaves right on the cusp of losing control, and utilise this knowledge to gain some advantage (competitive or otherwise).

To go back to my 'boxes off a lorry' example, both teaching philosophies would start by an analysis of the driver's surroundings, but the advanced driver's training would tell him/her to hang well back from said lorry in case the worst happened so that he/she had time to stop safely, whereas the performance driver's training would tell him/her what evasive action to take in the unlikely event that the box did indeed fall off.

Of course, put that way, it's easy to see which approach would be more favourable to a company training department. However, in this day and age when leaving a 'safe' gap usually ends up being an invitation to be cut up by a German saloon, I know which skills I'd rather have on a busy motorway at 70mph!

(Not that I'm saying what I learned from Don is used as an excuse to tailgate, but I wouldn't feel it necessary to leave a six-second gap behind every flatbed truck I encounter, either... )

(Not that I'm saying what I learned from Don is used as an excuse to tailgate, but I wouldn't feel it necessary to leave a six-second gap behind every flatbed truck I encounter, either... )

Or you could argue that the person who's done both courses will have long overtaken the flatbed, rather than conceding defeat and sitting behind it

It's a shame you weren't able to see some of Don's road driving as it is simply breathtaking

Chris

The idea of being a "performance driver", on the cusp of losing control, on the road, doesn't sound right to me. I'd rather be an advanced driver on the road, and a performance driver on the track.

Well, yeah, maybe I didn't express it especially well. My point was that someone with those skills would know how to manage the car in order to get round the obstacle without losing control, even if by doing so, they took it right to the limits of its abilities. You could argue that an advanced driver would do their best to avoid being in that situation, but if somehow they were, they would be outside the extent of their training by that point, and would be left wishing they'd hung further back as they either span or understeered into the box.

But I see where you're coming from. I also see Chris's point about being much better off in either case in front of the lorry! All the same, I feel that Don's course has done more to improve my driving than the IAM could, based on my mum and father-in-laws accounts (both of whom have passed the IAM test). Then again, I do feel that years spent commuting on a bike with the rest of the Manchester traffic did more for my roadsense than any course of that ilk ever could, and other than the (slightly counter-intuitive) recommended overtaking technique, nothing in my mum's copies of 'Roadcraft' or 'Pass Your Advanced Driving Test' particularly came as news to me... :ne_nau:

I also got the impression that the OP maybe was looking to stretch the defintion of 'road safety training' a little, which was why I chipped in to support Chris's recommendation of Don's course...

Nothing in my mum's copies of 'Roadcraft' or 'Pass Your Advanced Driving Test' particularly came as news to me... :ne_nau:

Funnily enough, I had some chap telling me exactly the same thing. It was only when we went out for a drive and looked at its application in the real world where he began to realise that Roadcraft forms the basis of the course and is intended to complement the instructor/observer training and not be a self-help guide. It also comes down to how objectively and critically you can look at your own driving. If you want a taster session, I'd heartily recommend pinging TaviaRS - I'm sure he'll happily show you what it's all about and give you feedback on your own driving

It's also worth pointing out that IAM/RoSPA really are only the first few rungs of a nice long ladder and there are plenty of other courses out there if you like to be challenged.

Chris (currently trying to reach to rung 4 )

Have I met this chap? :P

Ap0gee, not trying to pour cold water, believe me, a day (or more) with Don, is among my "things to do before too long" list.

(Chris, trying to work out what rungs 1, 2 and 3 were ... :rubchin: )

Re the OP, not sure what his experience so far is (I'm sure he can speak for himself) but I'd always rather see the basics cemented before branching out too far into estoteric performance courses. Don can afford to drive on the limit because he has huge talent honed by years of practice. Most people have the practice, but not doing anything too demanding, and when they step outside that comfortable envelope (gosh what a lot of mixed metaphors), they come unstuck very quickly.