As previously mentioned on another thread, young Mr Ree jnr. has recently passed his test, and I'm absolutely determined that he becomes a careful, skilful, and safe knowledgeable driver.

It's a very very long road in front of him with many long learning curves to negotiate, and I want him to enjoy and reach the end of it without any major incidents.

First up is his Pass Plus Xtra that he's hoping to complete next weekend.

After that he'll be having some new black box installed to monitor his every move, a new trial scheme supplied sponsored and fitted by the local road safety dept.

I can even watch where he's gong on this pc apparently!

I'll get back to you all when I find out a bit more about it.

Next up will be IAM sessions with a view to taking his test asap, ROSPA possibly too,

If that all goes well he'll be treated to a track day experience, with the ultimate prize of being allowed to compete against his 'old man' in a couple of sprints and hillclimbs next year once he can prove without any doubt that he can handle a car responsibly.

All very expensive, but what price a life / lifes and the associated dreadful heartache of picking up the pieces of shattered lifes?

Reading This thread really woke me up to the urgency of my quest.... http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/112807-19-year-old-sons-attitude-frightens-missus-and-me/page__hl__skid%20pan%20training

Anyway, inbetween all this, I want to purchase a skid pan experience for him as a crimbo pressie, and after a search in here, I couldn't find anything, so no kittens lost there then ey?

Can anyone recommend somewhere, and I'm talking proper skid pan , not a car runing on an adjustable trolley, preferably in the NW of England,

Thanks.

As previously mentioned on another thread, young Mr Ree jnr. has recently passed his test, and I'm absolutely determined that he becomes a careful, skilful, and safe knowledgeable driver.

It's a very very long road in front of him with many long learning curves to negotiate, and I want him to enjoy and reach the end of it without any major incidents.

First up is his Pass Plus Xtra that he's hoping to complete next weekend.

After that he'll be having some new black box installed to monitor his every move, a new trial scheme supplied sponsored and fitted by the local road safety dept.

I can even watch where he's gong on this pc apparently!

I'll get back to you all when I find out a bit more about it.

Next up will be IAM sessions with a view to taking his test asap, ROSPA possibly too,

If that all goes well he'll be treated to a track day experience, with the ultimate prize of being allowed to compete against his 'old man' in a couple of sprints and hillclimbs next year once he can prove without any doubt that he can handle a car responsibly.

All very expensive, but what price a life / lifes and the associated dreadful heartache of picking up the pieces of shattered lifes?

Reading This thread really woke me up to the urgency of my quest.... http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/112807-19-year-old-sons-attitude-frightens-missus-and-me/page__hl__skid%20pan%20training

Anyway, inbetween all this, I want to purchase a skid pan experience for him as a crimbo pressie, and after a search in here, I couldn't find anything, so no kittens lost there then ey?

Can anyone recommend somewhere, and I'm talking proper skid pan , not a car runing on an adjustable trolley, preferably in the NW of England,

Thanks.

Victor,

This is possibly one of the best threads I've read in a long time. I wish you all the best in your search, I'm watching this as its something we all, young and old should invest in.

I'm really going to look to attempt one of the Advanced schools in 2010. There is a skid control day operated by Leciestershire police, I just remembered that and it's not massively expensive. Perhaps contact your local force?

As for track experince, I have taken your post to indicate one of the drive an aston days over driving your car around a track? I don't know what if any restrictions are in place. It might be worth, partly as you get way more driving done, tlakign to a trackday company and hiring one of there cars, e.g. bookatrack with instructors. It will work out slightly more, but your lad will get a full day on circuit, and dare I say a more valuable experince.

I know since doing trackdays my on road confidence in the security of the car; not myself, has increased. I take corners far smoother improving the overall predicatblity of the car, engage the right gear for the exit etc. All osunds very rcer ish, perhaps it is as I weave my way up mountain roads each night it's helped. The real downside and it came after only one track day is I'd say my overall average speed has increased, but the terminal speed has been scrubbed off. My road enjoyment is up, however I still want to do more track days, everyone goes in the same direction and the ambulance is 2 minutes away.

Good luck and best wishes to your lad, sounds like he's got a solid old man behind him, will do him the world of good to learn now.

Victor,

This is possibly one of the best threads I've read in a long time. I wish you all the best in your search, I'm watching this as its something we all, young and old should invest in.

I'm really going to look to attempt one of the Advanced schools in 2010. There is a skid control day operated by Leciestershire police, I just remembered that and it's not massively expensive. Perhaps contact your local force?

As for track experince, I have taken your post to indicate one of the drive an aston days over driving your car around a track? I don't know what if any restrictions are in place. It might be worth, partly as you get way more driving done, tlakign to a trackday company and hiring one of there cars, e.g. bookatrack with instructors. It will work out slightly more, but your lad will get a full day on circuit, and dare I say a more valuable experince.

I know since doing trackdays my on road confidence in the security of the car; not myself, has increased. I take corners far smoother improving the overall predicatblity of the car, engage the right gear for the exit etc. All osunds very rcer ish, perhaps it is as I weave my way up mountain roads each night it's helped. The real downside and it came after only one track day is I'd say my overall average speed has increased, but the terminal speed has been scrubbed off. My road enjoyment is up, however I still want to do more track days, everyone goes in the same direction and the ambulance is 2 minutes away.

Good luck and best wishes to your lad, sounds like he's got a solid old man behind him, will do him the world of good to learn now.

Gulp. Thanks for that

I'm only really doing what ALL parents should do, and that should all be compulsary anyway imho.

I've nearly always had a keen sense of road safety, and even though I wasn't too reckless in my teens, I did have some very near misses that i learnt from, and actually witnessed a friend of mine hit a wall and turn his Moggy Minor covertible over with 3 of my other mates on board....yes we were sort of 'racing' I'm ashamed to say....racing...ish a bog standard 105E v a Moggy Minor! Amazingly no one was hurt.

Seriously, THAT was a wake up call for me and my mates. You don't act the fool on the public highway, simple really.

Apparently Merseyside Police have their own proper skid pan in Liverpool, but the facilty is NOT available to the public.

Now I find that quite staggering tbh. Safer drivers and more cashflow for them, unless someone knows the reasonong behind that of course?

Don't write off skid cars. They can simulate far more varied conditions than a car on a wet skid pan, and in the right hands can turn from predictable to undriveable in a second or so. That's what catches out people on the road, not a progressive change, but a sudden snap from one kind of behaviour to another. They can produce oversteer, understeer, no steer, etc. from one car, and without access to any special facility.

Very glad to hear you're considering IAM or RoSPA as well. When he's finished those, how about setting the goal as the High Performance Club or at least the entry course with one of the gatekeepers... The next Young Drivers' Day (under 26) to introduce young drivers to the Club will be in August 2010 - just about right when he's finished some of the other things you have lined up for him

Motorsport Events do very reasonable trackdays with instruction and they're very nice people. Not sure what presence they have in the North West though.

Col - good to hear you're considering going down that road too.

I agree with Nick; competently used a skid-control car can simulate not just a wide range of conditions, but in RWD, FWD, full or part-time 4WD, on demand.

Again, I would not dismiss the "trolley" setups. I did one at the Devon Driver centre and it truly can simulate all possible scenarios. I really learned a lot, as did my Dad, who came with me on the day.

Ohhh, I don't think I'd like someone monitoring my every move. Less so if that 'someone' was my parents and I was 17 / 18 years old.

Other than that good on you and son for wanting to improve. I thought skidpan sessions were easily available from most of those 'gift experience' companies, and if you book direct you might get it cheaper. Other than, you can hope for snowy / icy day and very large empty car park....

IAM and RoSPA groups often organise skid pan days at local facilities (the ones run round this way are part of the Goodwood race circuit site) and are fairly inexpensive with a good amount of wheel time. A good day and interesting to feel what skids are like and how to correct them, although the major disadvantage is that it is an artificial environment so the speeds tend to be unrealistically low and you don't necessarily get the feel of the build up and cause of a skid.

For that, I think you'd need to be looking at limit-handling days which are more costly, but which you do in your own car on a bit runway to explore what happens up to, at and beyond the limit of grip. Someone like Don Palmer or Andy Walsh are about the best in the business for this and money well spent, imho

Chris

ScoobyChris said "...it is an artificial environment so the speeds tend to be unrealistically low ..." - Well, in 25 years I've only had 2 skids of any form that were at over 30mph and weren't deliberately provoked! (including some closed course work)

Wide and varied choice it seems.

Found this one http://www.driverskills.com/driving-courses/skidpantraining.html near York.

Anyone in here been there?

They don't seem too fussed on 'adapted' cars for much the same reason that I thought tbh.

I dare say they are fairly good, but If I'm paying a fair amount of money out, I want it to be as absolutely realistic as possible for him.

I shall continue searching and comparing for the next few days.

Pass Plus should be completed this Saturday. Phone call to the insurance for a bit of a refund on his policy then.

Edited 16 December, 200916 yr by Mr Ree

Well well well, the trial scheme black box in the car that I mentioned in my first post, the Young Driver Programme sponsored by Cheshire West & Chester Councils Highways and Transportation Service, has been withdrawn unforunately seemingly due to a complete lack of interest.

However. to compensate young Mr Rees keeness to participate, he's been rewarded with an advanced driver programme with the IAM, consisting of the IAM driving course and the test too!!

Not only that but he's also going to be attending a skid cradle car training programme as well!

Not as previously mentioned , my preferred choice of skid training, but hey flamin' ho ey?

The council are paying in full for the lot.

What the hell am I going to buy him for Crimbo now then?

Any driving safety suggestion ideas as a present to him would be most welcome now, and thanks for all your helpful replies btw.

Edited 17 December, 200916 yr by Mr Ree

However. to compensate young Mr Rees keeness to participate, he's been rewarded with an advanced driver programme with the IAM, consisting of the IAM driving course and the test too!!

Not only that but he's also going to be attending a skid cradle car training programme as well!

Not as previously mentioned , my preferred choice of skid training, but hey flamin' ho ey?

The council are paying in full for the lot.

That sounds like a good result to me

What the hell am I going to buy him for Crimbo now then?

Any driving safety suggestion ideas as a present to him would be most welcome now, and thanks for all your helpful replies btw.

I guess the question of budget comes into play, but some suggestions of things he might appreciate...

- Books - if he's a reader, there are several books which might be useful, such as Mind driving or Roadcraft,

- DVDs - a good selection to choose from, such as Mark Kendrick's, Chris Gilbert's, Andy Walsh's, or the Roadcraft DVD to name a few.

- 1/2 day on road tuition with an (ex) Police instructor via RideDrive or one of the HPC Gatekeepers - may want to save this until he's done the IAM course, you may fancy him doing a couple of sessions before and after...

- An airfield day with someone like Andy Walsh to explore limit handling

- Or if you're feeling really flush, how about an Ice driving holiday

Chris

Skid pan experience/trainingdefinitely a good thing. Today it's mandatory here in Sweden before taking your license test, and has been so for a few years. It wasn't when I got my license, but before getting my bus 'ticket' I tried it. Weird experience completely losing control of a 12 ton vehicle (with semi-automatic gearbox).

Can't say I learned to master a skidding bus and regain control (we didn't spend that much time on the skid pan). The important lesson was rather "Drive so that you don't find yourself in this situation IRL". That, too, is valuable knowledge, and just as Ken wrote above, my experience of skidding in speeds above 30 mph (or even 20 mph) is almost non-existent.

I even still have to experience that the ABS system in SWMBO's Octy activates without being deliberately provoked :p

Edited 17 December, 200916 yr by swedishskoda

Skid pan experience/trainingdefinitely a good thing. Today it's mandatory here in Sweden before taking your license test, and has been so for a few years. It wasn't when I got my license, but before getting my bus 'ticket' I tried it. Weird experience completely losing control of a 12 ton vehicle (with semi-automatic gearbox).

Can't say I learned to master a skidding bus and regain control (we didn't spend that much time on the skid pan). The important lesson was rather "Drive so that you don't find yourself in this situation IRL". That, too, is valuable knowledge, and just as Ken wrote above, my experience of skidding in speeds above 30 mph (or even 20 mph) is almost non-existent.

I even still have to experience that the ABS system in SWMBO's Octy activates without being deliberately provoked :p

Good point that Swede'.

If you skid that has to be down to poor driving and lack of foresight and planning in reality.

I'd never thought of it that way before. :no:

Good point that Swede'.

If you skid that has to be down to poor driving and lack of foresight and planning in reality.

I'd never thought of it that way before. :no:

To be fair one can imagine situations that couldn't, within reasonable limits be foreseen, e.g. a sudden pool of motor oil on an otherwise perfectly dry road. Adjusting to weather conditions is different. Can be seen today in east Sweden (thankfully I live on the west coast) were M roads have been blocked since people hit snowy roads with worn summer tyres and don't keep distance...

To be fair one can imagine situations that couldn't, within reasonable limits be foreseen, e.g. a sudden pool of motor oil on an otherwise perfectly dry road. Adjusting to weather conditions is different. Can be seen today in east Sweden (thankfully I live on the west coast) were M roads have been blocked since people hit snowy roads with worn summer tyres and don't keep distance...

Well we could be having our first taste of snow and ice here in the UK starting tomorrow (Fri) and for the next few days.

The lad will NOT be allowed out on his own in the car in snowy icy conditions until he's done some serious training. Haven't told him yet, eeek!

It's just so easy and natural to simply freeze...no pun intended...and stamp on the brakes and scream STOPPPPPP PLEEEEASE!

Good point that Swede'.

If you skid that has to be down to poor driving and lack of foresight and planning in reality.

I'd never thought of it that way before. :no:

Imho, there are two broad aspects to training. The first is training so you don't get into a bad situation and IAM/RoADAR use Roadcraft to teach you this and it works very well. Then, because we are all human and therefore not perfect, there is the second part which is what to do when it all goes pear-shaped and you are in a situation where you need to sort the car out. This is more limit-handling and skid control. Both are important, but most people seem to concentrate on one or other which inevitably leads to problems.

One of the benefits of this time of year is that big car parks tend to ice over and you can explore how the car behaves to various good and bad inputs at farily low speeds with little risk of hitting anything and also without wearing out the tyres ;-)

Chris

Imho, there are two broad aspects to training. The first is training so you don't get into a bad situation and IAM/RoADAR use Roadcraft to teach you this and it works very well. Then, because we are all human and therefore not perfect, there is the second part which is what to do when it all goes pear-shaped and you are in a situation where you need to sort the car out. This is more limit-handling and skid control. Both are important...

Agree. First aspect is a good start and will in itself prevent a lot of accidents, but won't guarantee that nothing ever goes pear-shaped, so second aspect is a very valuable second step.

Worst thing is if skid-pan training leads to over-confidence so that you don't see the need for adjusting speed to road/weather conditions because you think you can handle every situation. Can be compared to imagining that new tech gadgets (ABS, ESP, GPS...) can correct for any human error.

Edited 19 December, 200916 yr by swedishskoda

Worst thing is if skid-pan training leads to over-confidence so that you don't see the need for adjusting speed to road/weather conditions because you think you can handle every situation.

I think that statement can be compared to 75% of the nuggets who pass thier test tbh.

Good and valid point anyway. Over confidence probably causes more accidents than lack of it.

Teenagers can get cocky and think they know it all, well actually they do...according to them.

Round 2 out of the way now anyway. Pass Plus completed sucessfully today.

The instructor was telling the young 'un about a girl he was tutoring on Pass Plus recently, and how incensed he was when he picked her up for the final lesson, only to be told that she'd just had an accident and written her car off beacuse, and this is what she actually said..."SHE WAS RACING another car"!

Lost it on a roundabout apparently.

The instuctor was very understandably furious and couldn't wait to get her out of the car.

When oh when will these youngsters learn?

playing catch-up.

This is what I hate about ESP, the fact that it's a stealth system, unlike ABS pedal kickback, and the warning light for most electronic traction control systems!

£175 refund just received for him passing the Pass Plus.

Still waiting for his IAM training start date.

Touch wood, the Fabia remains unscathed in his hands driving it locally occassionaly.

His sister reports that his driving is indeed very smooth careful and considerate whilst taxiing her around.

He knows the score if he gets 'found out', but I'm confident so far.

I actually rate his driving technique higher than his mother's, hence she's driving his car more than him at the moment.

She's already managed to smash the n/s door mirror off it.

Well, young Ree had his first IAM traing session last Sunday.

One thing that was picked up on was the fact that he didn't 'shuffle' the steering wheel whilst reversing.

I personally would find 'shuffling' the steering wheel pretty damned akward whilst looking over my shoulder.

What you lot think then?

Skid pan session will be held in Manchester in March btw.

Details to follow.

Wonder where it is exactly?

Edited 27 January, 201016 yr by Mr Ree

Well, young Ree had his first IAM traing session last Sunday.

One thing that was picked up on was the fact that he didn't 'shuffle' the steering wheel whilst reversing.

I personally would find 'shuffling' the steering wheel pretty damned akward whilst looking over my shoulder.

What you lot think then?

As I've mentioned on a few threads, there are often a few contentious issues that crop up and, dare I say it, dogma It is interesting that some observers recommend pull/push during reversing, while others recommend putting the left hand behind the passenger head restraint and steering with only the right hand. My suggestion would be to discuss with the observer why he recommends his method and then decide whether it's for you. You won't be marked down on a test for not using pull/push provided that your steering is safe, smooth and accurate - after all, that's what's important right?

Chris

I was taught to shuffle when reversing (and going forwards). There is another thread on the subject of shuffling going forwards, so let's revive it if we're going there.

regarding skid pans. I organsied one a while back for some members on here. http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/62145-skid-control-270107/

edit just read the whole thread and noticed your sorted. Out of interest which IAM group you using? I used the Merseyside group.

Edited 28 January, 201016 yr by faboka vrs