Cold starting issues Octavia vRS PD

[mlapicki]

Tonight I had real problems when leaving work. (-1C outside) I started the engine (which worked on the first go for once) and let it idle for about 1 minute whilst I messed around finding some good music. When I pulled away the car stalled. That's odd, since I've only stalled it once since I bought it. Then it refused to restart - the usual cold start "feels like it's going then doesn't" thing. Took 6 attempts in the end with some pauses in between. Worrying stuff. Up to then, I was feeling safe in the knowledge that it always started on the next go. Had it done this at one of the several busy junctions between work and the motorway I'd probably have a lorry inserted into my shoulder by now.

It's booked in on Thursday. Let's hope that Skoda Used Warranty is up to it.

[dstev2000]

Oddly enough SWMBO had problems getting her PD vRS started this morning, kept turning over and wouldn't catch for a good 5 or so seconds and ran as lumpy as hell afterwards. Its done nearly 19k but its always been short journeys.

Its always started on the button regardless of anything but not any more.

I have already had a new head on my PD140 and it started just like this, both cars were built within 6 weeks of each other.

2 cars with 2 duff heads? Surely I am not that unlucky.

[bomski]

Same here... 57 plate PD170... stutters like hell when it's cold start... 5 to 6 seconds later it fires up; engine idle increased to around 1100rpm (i assume to increase temperature of engine). Cycling glow plugs makes no difference. Parked car in sunshine yesterday at work and started fine when i came out to it after 6 hours...

i've read in another post that it might have something to do with cracks found between the inlet ports on cylinders as well as some other leaks that weren't visible. It appears that water from the coolant system can ingress into the engine and freeze/thaw action causes the cracks to expand.

Revision of heads are in circulation, and seems to affect <=57 plate Octys... Skoda are aware and unfortunately are not issuing recalls (case by case basis)

Edited 5 January, 2010 by bomski

[Bijorne]

Same here... 57 plate PD170... stutters like hell when it's cold start... 5 to 6 seconds later it fires up; engine idle increased to around 1100rpm (i assume to increase temperature of engine). Cycling ignition coils makes no difference. Parked car in sunshine yesterday at work and started fine when i came out to it after 6 hours...

i've read in another post that it might have something to do with cracks found between the inlet ports on cylinders as well as some other leaks that weren't visible. It appears that water from the coolant system can ingress into the engine and freeze/thaw action causes the cracks to expand.

Revision of heads are in circulation, and seems to affect <=57 plate Octys... Skoda are aware and unfortunately are not issuing recalls (case by case basis)

What do you mean with an 57 plate octy ?

I have an octy 01/2007 and have also have some difficulties when it's cold. My consumption is also higher than the average readed on the forum.

[bestyuk]

Well mine is now booked in the garage to be looked at. What harm can it do. I am not expecting any great fixes though as it will no doubt start first time in the morning at the workshop.

[knealeedis]

Well mine is now booked in the garage to be looked at. What harm can it do. I am not expecting any great fixes though as it will no doubt start first time in the morning at the workshop.

I'v got mine booked in at my local independant garage at the end of the week to seei f they can find anything wrong. After dropping it off I'm out the countyr for few weeks so 'hoping the garage can leave it sitting about for a few days and experience the startig problem for themselves and hopefully diagnose the fault.

I'll keep you posted on the outcome

[magic62]

Same here... 57 plate PD170... stutters like hell when it's cold start... 5 to 6 seconds later it fires up; engine idle increased to around 1100rpm (i assume to increase temperature of engine). Cycling ignition coils makes no difference. Parked car in sunshine yesterday at work and started fine when i came out to it after 6 hours...

What do you mean with cycling ignition coils??

On a diesel?

Or did you mean glow plugs?

[bomski]

What do you mean with cycling ignition coils??

On a diesel?

Or did you mean glow plugs?

i meant glow plugs...

[Paul_Sc]

Mine is booked in for start next week to have the cyclinder head replaced. It is having a good ol' cough and splutter morning and evening at the moment on start up so here's to another week of V cold weather so it can be tested.

I hope to be able to report back good news after that

PSc

[dstev2000]

This is crap, why do some dealers know nothing about it and others seem to have bulletins from SUK regarding the cylinder head problem?

Despite the known PD140 cylinder head problem it still amazes me that Skoda UK repeatedly told me this was the first instance of a faulty cylinder head they had ever come across. That is such *******s.

I wish car manufacturers wouldn't insult people's intelligence and feign ignorance about known issues with their products.

I have 2 Octavias and they both have the 2.0TDI engine, I have already had one head replaced, I will be properly ****ed if the other one needs it too.

[knealeedis]

This is crap, why do some dealers know nothing about it and others seem to have bulletins from SUK regarding the cylinder head problem?

Despite the known PD140 cylinder head problem it still amazes me that Skoda UK repeatedly told me this was the first instance of a faulty cylinder head they had ever come across. That is such *******s.

I wish car manufacturers wouldn't insult people's intelligence and feign ignorance about known issues with their products.

I have 2 Octavias and they both have the 2.0TDI engine, I have already had one head replaced, I will be properly ****ed if the other one needs it too.

Does anyone who has had a cylinder head replacement done because of this cold starting issue know the reason and justification for susspecting the cylinder head?

I am interested to find out what the cause of failiure of the cylinder head is and if any checkes can be carried out to diagnose the fault is with the cylinder head.

I will then discuss this with my local independat gargage and if they susspect it is at fault, I can go to the dealers and request the work is done under warrenty

[dstev2000]

Does anyone who has had a cylinder head replacement done because of this cold starting issue know the reason and justification for susspecting the cylinder head?

I am interested to find out what the cause of failiure of the cylinder head is and if any checkes can be carried out to diagnose the fault is with the cylinder head.

I will then discuss this with my local independat gargage and if they susspect it is at fault, I can go to the dealers and request the work is done under warrenty

My PD140 had a long history of poor starting, mostly in the morning from cold but it would even misbehave just after filling it up with fuel when the engine was off no more than 5 minutes.

There were 2 occasions where it refused to start at all, Skoda Assist had to come out and jump start it with a booster pack, on one occasion it took over a minute of solid cranking to get it going!

The Tandem pump was suspected and subsequently replaced. This did not cure the problem.

There was also a slow but constant coolant leak as well, several pressure tests came up negative. In reality the cracks between the intake valves on cylinders 1, 2 and 3 were allowing pressure into the coolant system when hot, when the engine was turned off the pressure would force coolant into the bores which caused the starting problems for obvious reasons.

This went on for about 2 years across 4 different dealers and the car was of the road a total of around 8-9 weeks. I had difficulty getting it identified because it was "very rare and almost unheard of" (*******s)

They can't even use an endoscope to have a look inside the bores as the hole that the injector nozzle fits through is too small, on a petrol you can just whip a spark plug out and away you go. The only option is to take the head off which is labour intensive.

In the end the head was removed and sent away for a proper pressure test and this is when the damage was found, the solution was a new cylinder head.

Since then it has started 'on the button' even in -5 conditions.

The 2 main factors that are looked out for are poor starting mostly from cold and a slow coolant loss. Even this could be a duff head gasket rather than a duff cylinder head.

It seems to affect 2.0 TDI 140 engines (BKD) up to around 2007, not sure about the PD170 engine. Mine is an 07 plate and was built in July 2007.The problem started at around 40k after its major service but I think this is purely co-incidental in my case.

The vRS was built in June 2007 and has done about 19k but is starting to show the same symptoms as mine did.

I think you'll have your work cut out with this one so perseverance is the key. I made very little progress until I got customer services involved.

Good luck

[TKU]

Here's two things to check to same symptoms with 140 PD last winter:

ECU software update. The original software was too low diesel to inject at cold starts because of emmissions. This cured my problem. Second, there's been many reports of ice/water in intercooler pipings here in Finland. Dealers cure for this is to drill a small hole to the pipe and get the water out before freezing (and getting to the sylinder!). And no, one small hole in the air pipe where huge amount of air flowing through does nothing to you power.

The ECU update came from Skoda factory but the drilling is maybe only local knowledge. Might be worthwhile to ask the dealer about these and then force them to ask the factory.

[Richf]

Funny you mention the software issue as this problem started when the car was remapped by Skoda following a fix for the DPF problem , it started fine before this and has only become difficult during the recent cold weather

I wonder if even a performance remap might help this

[Paul_Sc]

RichF: Any excuse to get more power!

Is there any way of finding out which is the latest ECU version? If memory serves I can find out the s/ware version from the maxidot, but even with this I wouldn't know if it was the latest revision or not

PSc

[xman]

Am I missing something?

Cold weather poor starting/ lumpiness for a few seconds is classic symptom of a glowplug failure.

Dead easy to check - pull off the busbar rail on the glowplugs and measure the resistance to the block - should be around 0.15 - 0.3 ohms ( you can use a bulb to test them if you dont have a meter) - they usually go open circuit or high resistance (100 ohms up) when then fail.

"Cycling" cant resurrect dead glow plugs - they fail becuse the element burns out, the same way a tungsten bulb does.

Cheap and easy to replace. Recommend NGK - avoid cheap glowplugs.

Edited 9 January, 2010 by xman

[Richf]

Am I missing something?

Cold weather poor starting/ lumpiness for a few seconds is classic symptom of a glowplug failure.

Dead easy to check - pull off the busbar rail on the glowplugs and measure the resistance to the block - should be around 0.15 - 0.3 ohms ( you can use a bulb to test them if you dont have a meter) - they usually go open circuit or high resistance (100 ohms up) when then fail.

"Cycling" cant resurrect dead glow plugs - they fail becuse the element burns out, the same way a tungsten bulb does.

Cheap and easy to replace. Recommend NGK - avoid cheap glowplugs.

You are right but the glow plug light is illuminated after starting if single glow plugs fail and there is no way the car would start at all this weather without ANY of the glow plugs working so i asked that question first

[xman]

the glow plug light is illuminated after starting if single glow plugs fail

Really? Where did you get that gem? News to me.

AFAIK there is no monitoring of glow plug resistance or current. The glow plug light is just an indication of demand by the ecu - no guaratantee the relay will operate, or the fuses (main supply or relay) are blown.

Check the glow plugs - its a 5 minute job. Glow plugs have a limited life - a bit like spark plugs.

Edited 10 January, 2010 by xman

[Richf]

Really? Where did you get that gem? News to me.

AFAIK there is no monitoring of glow plug resistance or current. The glow plug light is just an indication of demand by the ecu - no guaratantee the relay will operate, or the fuses (main supply or relay) are blown.

Check the glow plugs - its a 5 minute job. Glow plugs have a limited life - a bit like spark plugs.

Here

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/148594-heaterglow-plug-test-pd170-engine/

The question i asked first , if the fuses or relay had blown none of the glow plugs would work and the car wouldnt start at all , its just a little reluctant to start this time of year it will still start ok with 10 seconds of cranking if the glow plugs are cycled a few times

[xman]

Please yourself but what I am saying is it is common for glowplugs to fail one at a time. The symptom is more cranking required at cold temperatures below 5 deg C and a brief lumpiness. When the next plug goes, it starts becoming more difficult etc etc. You may not even notice a problem in temperatures above about 5 degrees. No glowplugs required at +10deg.

Problems are exacerbeted when injectors are dirty/high mileage when their spray patterns are poor.

PD/Tdi engines should start first turn in any temperatures. (My 1.9Tdi starts even at -21 deg C on first turn)

Why you refuse to check the glowplugs individually is beyond me.

Last comment from me.

Edited 12 January, 2010 by xman

[Richf]

Please yourself but what I am saying is it is common for glowplugs to fail one at a time. The symptom is more cranking required at cold temperatures below 5 deg C and a brief lumpiness. When the next plug goes, it starts becoming more difficult etc etc. You may not even notice a problem in temperatures above about 5 degrees. No glowplugs required at +10deg.

Problems are exacerbeted when injectors are dirty/high mileage when their spray patterns are poor.

PD/Tdi engines should start first turn in any temperatures. (My 1.9Tdi starts even at -21 deg C on first turn)

Why you refuse to check the glowplugs individually is beyond me.

Last comment from me.

Yes I know that glowplugs dont all fail at once but if the light comes on if ANY of the glowplugs has failed (just like my last car and many cars do) there seems little point to be stripping the car whilst standing in 8" of snow while the car is simply a bit reluctant to start especially when i wont be able to change them anyhow ???

[xman]

Yes I know that glowplugs dont all fail at once but if the light comes on if ANY of the glowplugs has failed (just like my last car and many cars do) there seems little point to be stripping the car whilst standing in 8" of snow while the car is simply a bit reluctant to start especially when i wont be able to change them anyhow ???

I know for a fact that TDi and early (-2003) PD engines dont have any glowplug monitoring at all. Just a relay connected feed from the battery via a fuse.

No magic glowplug light diagnostic. I dont imagine any PD engine is different.

My Tdi the glow plugs are located at the front of the cylinder head - just pull the plastic engine cover off and they are there in front of you and they are as simple simpler to change as a spark plug.

I may be wrong but I very much doubt the glow plugs are under the rocker cover on a PD.

There seems to be a lot of myths about the diagnostic capabilty of VAG engines.

Edited 12 January, 2010 by xman

[xman]

deleted dual post...

Edited 12 January, 2010 by xman

[dstev2000]

I was lead to believe that more recent PD engines can log fault codes for individual glow plug problems, a VCDS/VAS scan should show up any problems with glow plugs. P0671-P0674 (or 17055-17058) relate to cylinders 1-4 but the order can be ass about face so verify with a multimeter, P0380 (16764) is a generic GP fault on older TDIs. Mine are still fine at 112k despite my past starting problems.

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/17055/P0671/001649

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/17056/P0672/001650

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/17057/P0673/001651

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/17058/P0674/001652

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/index.php/16764/P0380/000869

[Golf-Fiend]

My Tdi the glow plugs are located at the front of the cylinder head - just pull the plastic engine cover off and they are there in front of you and they are as simple simpler to change as a spark plug.

I may be wrong but I very much doubt the glow plugs are under the rocker cover on a PD.

I do believe that the glow plugs are not accessable on the 2.0 litre TDi engines without removing the rocker cover. Crazy but true

Nick...