Anyone interested in one of these? I know a couple of you have expressed an interest, you know who you are

I am talking to someone who is prepared to make custom front mount intercoolers for the Octavia. None of those currently available fit properly (as those of you have tried them will know or without major surgery.

Initial estimate is around

:bouncer:

:bouncer: :bouncer:

Jon,

what does have this done give in terms of performance?

Something to do with better cooling, giving better power?

Cheers.

Adrian

A bigger intercooler is needed for 1 of 2 reasons.

1) You're strangling every bit of boost out of your turbo, so the compressed air is so hot after the turbo that the stock IC can't cool it down enough. This means you're losing ignition advance (known as retard) because of the hot air. In this case, you gain HP by gaining ignition advance. To have these gains, you need a more "efficient" IC.

2) You installed a bigger turbo, and since it can push much more air through the IC than the stock one, the IC becomes an obstacle and a source of pressure loss due to turbulence within it. Pressure loss is exponential with increase in air flow, so at 2x the air flow (or HP) of the stock one, you'll lose exponentially more pressure (say 4x) in the IC than at stock flows. The thing to remember here is wide ICs are better than long ICs to reduce pressure loss, given the same area. This is because slow air has less turbulence than fast air. In this case you win HP because your turbo can relax a bit since it doesn't have to make up for the pressure loss at the IC. Since the turbo is running more relaxed, it will run more efficiently and hence the air will be cooler, which gets you some ignition advance. Also if you're planning on pushing the limits of the turbo, this means the turbo can do more psi at the manifold, hence more HP.

My FMIC that's going in in the next couple of weeks:

http://www.toxictimes.com:8080/cgi-bin/carphotos/index.cgi?mode=view&album=/FMIC

My reasons for getting the FMIC were both. Hopefully I'll be flowing more than 300hp, and at that flow my T3 S60 turbo will be pushing it's limits so the air will be too hot. The IC measures 3"x19.6"x6" and I bought it from www.bellintercoolers.com for USD601. The inlet tube is 2" and the outlet is 2.5". I'd make some custom piping for you guys, but I'm afraid to look into shipping costs (I'm in Colombia).

Speedy G

Update

Well, having spent all afetrnoon in Basildon yesterday, we have some measurements and some prices.

Measurements were taken by making a template (from a PIAA wiper blade box ) to make sure what would fit. It is a little larger than anticipated to make the pipe runs shorter and neater. So what have we ended up with? Well its 19.5" long by 3" deep oh and its 14" tall

I believe its a dual flow (or something like that ) so it will enter at the bottom, get cooled, ender the second intercooler, get cooled a tiny bit more (but not a lot as its behind the crash member) then exit on the same side as the inlet.

I have specified that we'd like it in black & when installed you won't be able to see it behind the grill, unless you look closely. Pipework will hopefully be black as well for the stealth approach.

Cost? Well, as mine is the first one I take the hit on jigging costs. Mine will be

Hmm... Jon,

It sounds like an interesting idea, but if it's bigger than my core there's 2 possible reason why you'd want to do that:

1) You're running 2 "long" not "wide" cores made for lesser flow in a row, like the TT225 DSMIC system. This is bad because of pressure drop, although the air is cooled properly. Your setup sounds like 2 ATP (www.vwturbo.com) cores in a row, which means a lot of pressure drop, so your turbo works harder and you get less HP.

2) If it's bigger than mine, you'd better be making more than 350bhp, since that's what my design specs were.

The fact that we have room for a 3x20x14 IC (plus end tanks of they're on the top and bottome) doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it. Bigger ICs cause lag and pressure drops (longer than wide ICs especially).

BTW mine is a top to bottom design, end tanks are at the top and at the bottom, and both the inlet and the outlet will be on the passenger side. I'll be reusing most of the stock piping. The air flows from top to bottom since heat rises. The air flows with a large cross section (3x19.6), so the air moves slowly, and only 6 inches long to minimize pressure drop. I'll be getting 1.5psi pressure drop at 650CFM of air flow, which is more than enough for 350bhp.

Speedy G

Count me in. Would be interested to hear about this development as it unfolds. Keep me posted.

Assume you are planning to get this fitted so that when the Jabba remap is done in July it will be optimised for the FIC and Milltek. Mine is also now booked for later in July.

Chris

Hi Speedy, your solution certainly looks interesting and obviously should be very effective. I look forward to your results once everything is up and running.

I

This sounds interesting-may have to be the next step instead of an exhaust , as I had originally planned!

I was just thinking the same thing myself Duncan.

So I'll be watching developments closely.

Really relying on Jon on ths one as I no nothing about intercoolers!

Cheers.

Adrian.

Well, that definitely was a good explanation of the design reasons. I think priorities depend on what turbo you're running and what altitude you're at. I'm at 2800m of altitude so I already have to make 4psi more than at sea level to make the same power. For me, running a T3, pressure loss is very important. People running T3/T4E's can get away with pressure loss since running 25psi doesn't really imply much turbo efficiency loss. I'll have to push 24psi to make around 300-350bhp up here. We'll see if the T3 can even take it. That's why I'm minimizing pressure loss as much as possible. I'd still run a wide IC that's 20x14x2.5 or even thinner with same side inlet and outlet, if cost and pressure loss weren't as much of an issue up here. The dual "long" ICs may cool better, but I'm not willing to give up boost for little more timing. I can get timing advance back with race fuel.

Speedy G

Aha, I can see at that Altitude why pressure loss is more revelant in your design, as your needs are slightly different to ours:o

Will you be doing a comparison of charge temps before and after installation, its one of the areas where I'm really looking forward to the results, as I cant help thinking that almost any design of FMIC should have a significant effect.

Obviously on Jons we aren't looking to make (well at this point I dont hink he wants to make;)) the sort of power you are after or even what the FMIC is capable of. Hopefully at some point in the near future someone will come along with grander plans and we can see the potential a bit more. Otherwise one of my cars may be going to make room a monster powered Octavia Infact I'm already tempted..

Well... mine is slowly becoming a monster. I'm holding 18psi at redline right now, and that's with 91 octane (US, I think it's like 95ROZ). I have data from my original turbo, and with my T3 S60 with the stock intercooler. I'll have after install intake temp data, including timing retard due to knock, and total timing. FYI, my site has all the logs with pics and other octavia relevant stuff:

Photos

http://www.toxictimes.com:8080/cgi-bin/carphotos/index.cgi

Logs and other stuff:

http://www.toxictimes.com:8080/car/logs/

There's intake temp data there taken at all stages of the project.

Speedy G

Thanks for the links. I now have a better idea of what you intend with the FMIC, and I like what you are doing with the end cans (top/bottom in your case).

Think I'll leave reading the data logs etc til the morning, when I can think and digest more clearly

Here's a thread on vortex regarding FMIC vs a good side mount unit made by Forced performance:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=873684

The kit is APR which uses a turbo similar to mine, but slightly more efficient (GT25). The kit pushes around 20psi to redline. Their FMIC is pretty much like mine in terms of dimensions and layout, but it's slightly more efficient and has slightly less pressure drop.

Speedy G

Another review can be found at http://www.seatcupra.net/reviews.php?descrip=Forge%20Side%20Mount%20Intercooler. This is just for replacing the standard one with a Forge one.

So on a standard Golf they get an extra 13bhp and 2lb/ft, whats the bets on a chipped RS with a front mount fitted