Honest Johns take on ESP problems

[bond007]

minimoke etka says its a MK70 teves unit or at least thats what i would supply if you ordered one, the MK60 is listed but not for your model

[Minimoke]

Bond007- Thanks for the info.

That makes sense - although nearly new the car is ASR equipped only - and bears out what others have been saying. Looks like ASR only Octavias like mine will avoid this particular fault.

Edited 29 March, 2010 by Minimoke

[colsay]

Being new to Skoda (so new in fact my car doesn't arrive till June), this thread makes scary reading. Having driven German cars for the last 8 years all with ESP I have specified it on my new Octavia 1.4 TSi. I believe it does make a positive contribution particularly in bad weather and where I am up North we do get a lot of bad weather.

A couple of observations....

1) Makes the Koreans with their 5 and 7 year warranties seem attractive

2) The whole saga sounds horribly like the Land Rover Freelander head gasket saga (which did make Watchdog) as these failed however well you had looked after the car and even failed again when replaced with a modified gasket. Root caause was it was just a very bad and inadequate design.

And finally, a question....

Will my 2010 Octavia have one of these dodgy ABS/ESP units in it - have they got a 100% fix and /or replaced with a different part? Or do I have to anticipate a £1500 horror if I keep the car more than 3 years?

[bond007]

we dont supply many for the newer cars mostly 04-06 cars, this includes the golfs/tourans aswell so you should be ok but i'm sure the mk2 octavia people on here will be able to help you more

[Allams Skoda]

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

In my years dealing with Skoda (my first new one was EU03FEH I think!) I've not really ever noticed a mass failing of ESP units on Octavias.

Through all the new and used Skodas I've sold and a fair few Golfs/TTs/A3s/Leons/etc I've only ever known of 2 ESP modules failing, both these on Octavia vRS MKII.

How many people on here have got cars with this Teves Mk60 ABS/ESP unit and how many people have had theirs fail either in or out of warranty?

How do I tell which unit is in which car? I've got a new L&K in the showroom with ESP and a new Elegance without ESP, should there be a different ABS unit in each one of them, or is it a case of it needs to get scanned to detirmine which model it has?

Thanks!

[NikNak]

Hi James,

I believe we spoke earlier today about the Scout you have in the showroom

Your guys will need to connect their computer to the car and interogate the ECU. It should get one of two lines listed below (quote from Avalon on page 2)

quote/

Well just checked, the Golf's ESP and it's an MK60, also included the VCDS error log for it for reference.

Component: ESP FRONT MK60 0102

Coding: 0021122

Shop #: WSC 01279

1 Fault Found:

01435 - Brake Pressure Sensor 1 (G201)

012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit

The Octy is ASR not ESP and sure enough it's an MK70, so that would suggest the ASR=MK70 statement is accurate, I only have scan's from both of our cars but it looks like my findings back up Phil_p and Wega3k's posts

Component: ASR FRONT MK70 0105

Coding: 0017025

Shop #: WSC 73430

No fault code found.

[GED-VRS]

I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

In my years dealing with Skoda (my first new one was EU03FEH I think!) I've not really ever noticed a mass failing of ESP units on Octavias.

Through all the new and used Skodas I've sold and a fair few Golfs/TTs/A3s/Leons/etc I've only ever known of 2 ESP modules failing, both these on Octavia vRS MKII.

How many people on here have got cars with this Teves Mk60 ABS/ESP unit and how many people have had theirs fail either in or out of warranty?

How do I tell which unit is in which car? I've got a new L&K in the showroom with ESP and a new Elegance without ESP, should there be a different ABS unit in each one of them, or is it a case of it needs to get scanned to detirmine which model it has?

Thanks!

I said earlier in the thread how many teves units have been produced and fitted [probably millions] skoda vw bmw hyundai renault citroen volvo seat ,etc etc,how many have failed ,in total worldwide,how many have failed on skoda ,im still in touch with the volvo owners club and theres no reports on failures there my mates got a 1 series bmw and theres no failures that he knows of on bmwoc ,i know someone who works for skf bolton hes never heared of any failures ,isnt this a case of hype ,out of proportion ,

[Minimoke]

Just came across this which may be of interest:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/parts-and-accessories/2010-03/teves-mk-60-abs-module

[NikNak]

Good find Minimoke

[Rhoobarb]

Concerned now..

My ESP light and dash warning came on last week, its in the garage now being looked at along with a service:(

Hoping that its something simple.... but my car falls flat in the 'at risk' category (55 VRS with ESP)

so a couple of questions;

-Being a supposed life lasting unit, does replacing them mean a main dealer or specialist job only or can your local garage do it?

-Do the units used as replacements have the same ticking time bomb fault?

-Does the fault code that comes up for this unit, soley indicate that it has failed, or is it just a blanket fault code that could imply other componenets or faults in the braking system?

I asked my main dealer what their stance was on this unit and they seemed to be unaware of any such problem, and my car is out of warranty so no 'goodwill' there.

Waiting on the garage report *sigh* :(

[gwing]

Thanks for the popinter to ECU Testing's rebuild Minimoke.

I've got this fault come up on my 05 Octy2 1.9 4x4 (not unexpected, I bought the car with the ESP light on) and mine will be stripped off and sent off for rebuild next week. I was planning to use BB Reman but as ECU testing are claiming to actually rectify the weakness, and are offering a 2 year guarantee, that seems a better option than fitting a replacement unit.

Cost looks like being £350 for the rebuild plus 4 hours at £65 labour, so £610 plus VAT all in.

[bond007]

Concerned now..

My ESP light and dash warning came on last week, its in the garage now being looked at along with a service:(

Hoping that its something simple.... but my car falls flat in the 'at risk' category (55 VRS with ESP)

so a couple of questions;

-Being a supposed life lasting unit, does replacing them mean a main dealer or specialist job only or can your local garage do it?

-Do the units used as replacements have the same ticking time bomb fault?

-Does the fault code that comes up for this unit, soley indicate that it has failed, or is it just a blanket fault code that could imply other componenets or faults in the braking system?

I asked my main dealer what their stance was on this unit and they seemed to be unaware of any such problem, and my car is out of warranty so no 'goodwill' there.

Waiting on the garage report *sigh* :(

usual code it throws up is G201 pressure sensor, this is usually terminal. i've supplied these units to loads of independant garages so there shouldnt be a problem with fitting, the dealer should be well aware of these unless you spoke to a halfwit, may still be worth trying them on goodwill

[Rhoobarb]

usual code it throws up is G201 pressure sensor, this is usually terminal. i've supplied these units to loads of independant garages so there shouldnt be a problem with fitting, the dealer should be well aware of these unless you spoke to a halfwit, may still be worth trying them on goodwill

TBH, trying to explain the situation to the dealers 'Service Manager', even after quoting parts, honest johns information and bits of techie info on here about it, he just gave the montone 'yeah, mmm, u-huh' type responses I get from my teenage kids when they arent listening. He said that Skodas do not share any parts with BMW's or Volvos (they are the same unit arent they? Please correct me if Im wrong) He then repeated he hadnt seen or knew of any problems relating to this and tried to get me to book it in, talking like I was a simple child. I was thoroughly 'cheesed' by the end of the conversation.

I understand they cant comment on a particular cars fault until they have diagnosed it, but I was asking generally regarding all MK60 units.

My thoughts are he knew but as SUK arent doing recall work on them, the dealer would have ended up bearing any costs.

My opinion of the dealer has dropped

EDIT: Well car has the G201 fault code :(

Edited 1 April, 2010 by Rhoobarb

[octimark]

Reading this thread with great interest.

In summary does this only affect Mk2 Octavias between 2005 and 2008?

[Minimoke]

Octimark:

It seems that all Skodas based on the VW Golf MkV platform AND which are fitted with ESP are affected. They use the problematic Teves Mk60 unit. The consensus on this forum seems to be that cars which are equipped with ASR seem to use the Teves Mk70 unit (which is a very different animal from the Mk 60) and so do not suffer from this "known" fault.

Teves ABS units are used by other makers on certain models so its just not a Skoda issue.

Rhoobarb:

I was down at my indie buying some screenwash this afternoon and whilst I was there asked about their experiences regarding this issue. Their only comment was "..if a VW or Skoda Service Manager says they have never seen G201 sensor failures before they have a fantastically lucky customer base".

Edited 1 April, 2010 by Minimoke

[Rhoobarb]

I was down at my indie buying some screenwash this afternoon and whilst I was there asked about their experiences regarding this issue. Their only comment was "..if a VW or Skoda Service Manager says they have never seen G201 sensor failures before they have a fantastically lucky customer base".

I did think the same thing, TBH. He made me feel like I was wasting his time. I feel either not wanting to make any statements without seeing the car first (but as I stated I wanted a general procedure for this problem, not self diagnosing my own car), just not plain interested in a out-of-waranty claim they dont have to cover (as yet!) or being told by the powers that be to deny any consistent fault exists. (Not wanting a Toyota type scandal, after all, any mention of 'faulty brake unit' wouldnt look too good in the media, optional extra or not) There are probably other reasons of course, just my conspiracy mind working overtime lol.

Either way its like trying to tell a policeman the law...

EDIT: btw, thanks Minimoke, that ECU Testing link, may be a godsend yet

Edited 1 April, 2010 by Rhoobarb

[blueR36]

Sorryto hear of your problem Rhubarb, BtDt and got the t shirt mines an Oct 56 when it failed it had 27400 miles on clock although out of warranty i paid half of cost towards <£635> Only by reading this thread i have found it might return . Well after the horse has bolted now got warranty direct , costs £225 a year but better warranty than original . I urge all you guys out there to get some cover, it would have been cheaper in long run. I have also been told it is when they will fail not if. :

[Rhoobarb]

Sorryto hear of your problem Rhubarb, BtDt and got the t shirt mines an Oct 56 when it failed it had 27400 miles on clock although out of warranty i paid half of cost towards <£635> Only by reading this thread i have found it might return . Well after the horse has bolted now got warranty direct , costs £225 a year but better warranty than original . I urge all you guys out there to get some cover, it would have been cheaper in long run. I have also been told it is when they will fail not if. :

Luckily I signed up to Warranty Direct a couple of weeks before the fault light apeared, I felt quite a **** phoning up for a claim when they hadnt even received the first payment! But they were very understanding and just stated to get a garage to diagnose it etc. No problems, well so far, the ball has only just started rolling.

Basically the garage are getting back to me with a price, Im going to contact ECU Testing tomorrow (I tried today but I didnt have part numbers to hand, they cant help without part numbers) to see prices etc and then speak to the garage about a possible rebuild from them rather than a new 'timebomb'. THEN speak to warranty direct to confirm all is OK with them, then the garage again to confirm that Warranty Direct have authorised the work, after much phoning and double checking, my hopes and prayers are that all will be in agreement and satisfied.

Ive not dealt with warranty companies before, fearful of wasting money and getting no benefit due to clauses, but Warranty Direct seem highly regarded. If all goes well with this problem tho I will certainly be singing their praises!

Fingers crossed for the next few days or so..

EDIT: Just a question bluvrs2. Was replacement unit you got a new one or a recon? If it was a new one, what are the chances it will fail again? I just find it hard to believe they will still sell these units knowing theres a fault with no revisions or updates?

What about 2008+ models that dont seem affected? Would the ESP module work with older cars? Are they updated MK60's or a viable alternative?

Apologies... So many damn questions. There just seems to be so many gaps in technical information regarding this. Other than replace with same and wait another 4 years its very fuzzy...

I am curious as to what exactly fails in these units?

Edited 1 April, 2010 by Rhoobarb

[slicendice]

Very interesting reading....if a little concerning!

It's quite likely that I'm going to be buying a vRS some time in the near future - I'll most likely get it from a dealership but is there any way to determine if this problem has already occurred on a vehicle or not? I guess it would need plugging in to some diagnostic system - and if buying second hand then I'd only have the dealerships word as to whether it had or not. Do you think this issue would be covered by a dealership warranty on a second hand car? I realise it would depend on how long after buying it that the issue occurred, but if it did crop up within the warranty period, is it likely it would be covered? Or would it be down to the dealer in question?

Just wondering how best to address the issue with the dealer when making a purchase.....?

[blueR36]

In answer to both your questions you cant tell if it has been done, just if it needs doing, it is the pressure sensor switch, which is an integral part of it, used to modulate how hard you are stamping on the brakes <when abs kicks in > Mine was a new replacement. When joined warranty direct i was in the middle of my" crisis" car was in garage at the time, and Chris at warranty direct 08007317001 option3 then extention202 said if i had cover at the time ,they would have paid out. I would ask dealer <silcendence if any future failing would be covered by dealer warranty ,should you purchase, but get it in writing>

[Rhoobarb]

In answer to both your questions you cant tell if it has been done, just if it needs doing, it is the pressure sensor switch, which is an integral part of it, used to modulate how hard you are stamping on the brakes <when abs kicks in > Mine was a new replacement. When joined warranty direct i was in the middle of my" crisis" car was in garage at the time, and Chris at warranty direct 08007317001 option3 then extention202 said if i had cover at the time ,they would have paid out. I would ask dealer <silcendence if any future failing would be covered by dealer warranty ,should you purchase, but get it in writing>

Thanks for that, Im out of dealer warranty (the reason I joined warranty direct in the first place) so no issues regarding them really for me. But a good tip for in warranty cars.

Today is the day of many phone calls though. I am just hoping that all parties agree on the rebuild rather than replace idea....

[blueR36]

Best of luck , would have thought rebuild cheaper anyway

[bond007]

but if your staying with warranty direct does it matter if it fails again? surely the future failure would be covered again

[Phil_P]

but if your staying with warranty direct does it matter if it fails again? surely the future failure would be covered again

Yes, it matters because the more times you claim the more they will put up the premiums for everyone so you're all paying for it in the end.

This is a VAG problem and they should fix it. Simples :-D

[Rhoobarb]

but if your staying with warranty direct does it matter if it fails again? surely the future failure would be covered again

True, but a few points on my feelings on this;

1, With warranty direct, the older the car gets the less covered it gets. If the unit goes after 4 years (which seems about the average time they last?), there might not even be any cover for it.

2, Should it happen to be covered, would they be willing to replace it again with another unit that will more than likely fail again? Lets be honest, its not a cheap fix. Then what happens in another 4 or so years when theres no cover on it?

3, The extra cost involved in another replacement, not just the excess, but having the car off the road again for a fault it should never have had.

4, Resale value, if the rebuild is supposedly a permanent fix, surely that bodes better for resale value than one that will need to be replaced again and again? £1500 off used car price of a 5+ year old car is a hell of a lot. Wouldnt you prefer to go with the car that shouldnt get the fault anymore as opposed to one that is just a matter of time? It wont necessarily add any value to the car but it should certainly make it a more attractive purchase, and certainly deny a haggling point.

5, Peace of mind, the units seem to fail around 4 years, is there any guarantee they wont fail sooner?

To me a potentially 1 off job that reportedly fixes the problem is a much better option than an average fail of every 4 years throwing replacemnts with the same fault at it, even not counting that its half the price or the fact that they both have a 2 year guarantee.

I understand the 'why not if its covered?' but it wont be covered forever.

Yes, it matters because the more times you claim the more they will put up the premiums for everyone so you're all paying for it in the end.

and this.

This is a VAG problem and they should fix it. Simples :-D

wishful thinking I fear.

Edited 2 April, 2010 by Rhoobarb