As an alternative to the cheaper (and illegal) rip offs of vag-com software there is a halfway house in getting something like the u600. This *claims* to provide all the functions of a VAG 1552 (like vag-com does), whilst additionally including standalone hardware (no pc needed) and connector to run the software and all at half the vag-com price. Seems like a bargain, probably isn't as nice to use as vag-com, but is a cheaper and still a legal solution. I'll post results when mine arrives and I have had chance to try it out.

That'd be really cool if you could post a review of this once you've played about with it. At that price it's almost disposable, not far off what 1 diag session costs at the dealer!

Legally, the rip-offs don't just reverse engineer RT's work but instead infringe their copyright. They distribute modified RT software that has been cracked to ignore the cables dongle (thus breaking copywright) and/or include their own type of dongle in the cable. I could be wrong here but I believe you can't just copy a dongle legally like some other bit of hardware, the contents of the dongle are I understand treated as software i.e. they are also covered by copywright.

So in the end the difference comes down to whether you are bothered by software piracy or not, and that one product is legal and the other isn't (in some countries at least).

The hardware bit isn't copyright, since that sort of thing isn't applicable under copyright (patented, yes, but not copright...). Versions I've seen merely use the "knock off" cable with free versions of VAG COM software.

The pricing structure of VAG-COM seems to imply that they know they have the market cornered so can charge wtf they want! Like Apple...

I guess all I can say is that I am amazed at how little some know of what it takes to reverse engineer the communications strategy of a diagnostic platform without infringing on any of the intellectual property of the manufacturer. I hope as you read, you learn a bit about what it takes.

But before I go down that road, let me ask a question: Do you really think that VW would sit by and let Ross-Tech sell these units all over the world if they thought we were stealing from them? I mean, they have fully staffed legal departments who go after people for nutso stuff like using pictures with the badges of their products in non-VW advertising. Don't you think that if we were stealing information from them that they would make some effort to stop us?

I know for a fact they would make the effort if Ross-Tech was stealing. I also know that in the US, they have bought hundreds of units of ours and given them to their factory techs to go out and help the dealer techs solve problems. Do you think they would allow that if they thought we were stealing from them?

I assure you, we are not. We have invested several hundred thousand person hours in research and development for this tool over a 10+ year history. The research involves reading all available Technical information as well as countless hours watching the communication between scan tools (note I said "tools") and a car. We look at the raw data stream and then figure out what exactly the tool is doing and what exactly the control module is sending back to the tool. We have not "hacked" the module. We look at the communications between the devices.

Let's talk cloning. Cloning is generally considered the process of opening the product and copying exactly how that product is made. Our tool does not copy the factory tool at all. It does emulate the factory tool. It does all things in the Ross-Tech manner without loosing the structure and terminology common to the factory tool found in the factory Technical bulletins and Repair instructions.

"Hacking" is generally considered the process of unlocking the security on a piece of software - bridging that security to gain access to information. Ross-Tech did not "Hack" the communications. Communications travel on a wire and we built a device to monitor those communications. Then we sat there and figured out what commands needed to be sent to the control module and interpreted what the control module sent back. We did not violate security and protections. We do not allow customers to modify the modules memory. We let others do those kinds of things. Our tool simply uses the available protocols that the VAG tool uses.

So are we on a high horse because the Chinese open our interfaces and directly copy the exact circuit and the proprietary software we have developed to talk to the VAG protocols in the control modules? I guess what I am asking is: is it being on a high horse when the Chinese take our exact software product, rip out our protection for duplication, and distribute our product as their own? Do you see that as the same as what we did in supporting VAG cars?

Obviously we see the effort we put into this worth something and so we don't see copying and ripping out protection as the same as reverse engineering. We see the cloning as outright theft. From our point of view, those that would sell these products may as well have broke into our warehouse, stole the product and sold it on eBay. That's the equivalent of what they do. It's theft. There is no other word for it.

But, I understand that my view will be considered biased and self serving. Those of you who think they can provide a VAG product at the level of VCDS, ask yourself this question: If it is so easy to do, why haven't others done so to compete with us?

And for the person who talks about the u600, don't be surprised to find the tool telling you to "Call Ross-Tech". Many of the Chinese products contain exact duplicates of our definition files. They never even bother to remove comments we purposely place so that we know they have copied our data tables verbatim.

Everyone has the right to decide what is right for them. If buying an inexpensive product which you know is an illegal copy of another person's product doesn't bother you, then what can anyone do about it? For those that go that route, I hope that someday, you will come to understand that copying another's idea completely is a type of theft. I hope your ideas never get stolen and that you will always enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that your idea is appreciated and valued.

Maybe in a whacked sort of way, we should be proud that our idea is being cloned. Doesn't the cloning show how much others appreciate and value the quality of our product? After all, so many choose to steal it and sell it as their own!

Edited 19 March, 201016 yr by bearthebruce

The hardware bit isn't copyright, since that sort of thing isn't applicable under copyright (patented, yes, but not copright...). Versions I've seen merely use the "knock off" cable with free versions of VAG COM software.

You are partially correct. The hardware in our dongles is not protected but the firmware in those chips is.

The pricing structure of VAG-COM seems to imply that they know they have the market cornered so can charge wtf they want! Like Apple...

The only legitimate tools that compete with the full version of VCDS cost 20x or more what VCDS costs. So how do we have the market cornered? No one bothers to compete directly with us because they won't take the time to develop what we have developed.

Thanks for your comments Bruce.

As a full blown VCDS user I appreciate your time and efforts and I will continue using your product grateful that you put all of that effort into making it the product that it is.

PS. About the new facelift Octavia. I loked at one at the weekend and she doesn't talk to some of the modules so well. :wonder:

PS. About the new facelift Octavia. I loked at one at the weekend and she doesn't talk to some of the modules so well. :wonder:

Were you using Beta 912? A new Octavia may have modules with the UDS/ODX protocol and 908 has some support there but Beta 912, soon to be a full release should have better support. So, knowing what version you were running would be helpful.

The case of someone bricking their dash panel did not involve vag-com or VCDS software though, merely a random executable file on a cd with others that they ran. I seriously doubt ross tech would consider writing software that would intentionally cause extensive damage to the cars of users using counterfeit cables and software, although I am sure they make efforts to stop the counterfeit cables working with newer versions.

Discussion on "duplication protection" measures could go on forever, my perspective is if they were doing any good then the cable's firmware would not be copyable. IMO there's no excuse for poor protection, then moaning the protection has been broken. It's like putting lots of money on your window ledge in sight of passers-by then complaining the closed window should have been enough to stop the theft.

Am I correct in thinking that vag-com developed from vwtool which was a diagnostic tool?

Also did one of the partners in vwtool die and the other partner continue on and develop vag-com?

there's no excuse for poor protection

But there pretty much isn't a system out there that's not been cracked. So they're all poor protection. So that means there is an excuse then... :p just not a very good excuse for another reason...

DVDs with CSS copy protection - cracked.

Blurays with (cant remember what it's called) - cracked.

Music CDs with all sorts of crazy mechanisms - cracked.

AAC files with "FairPlay" protection - cracked

Computer Games with all sorts of crazy "protection" systems - cracked every last one of them.

That game released the other day with the "unbreakable" DRM (it tied the "ptoection" to your saved game data and put that on a central server) - cracked *in under 24 hours of launch*

BMW ECUs - cracked

RossTech cables...

Doesn't exist, never can, never will.

A Rant Follows

Kinda wish they'd all stop trying now though, because there's a side effect to all these attempts to stop copyright infringement -- it's that i (mr fully paid up customer) can't use the damned thing i paid for! All these copy protection things just get in the road of me using the thing for what it's supposed to be used for!

Bought a CD sir? You want to play it on your computer at work? *sucking through teeth noise* ohh for that you need to buy the WMA version of the album sir. It's to prevent people copying CDs sir.

The WMA doesn't work Sir?

Ahh sir a good virus checker will help avoid Linux's getting on your computer... No you can't play the WMA version on a virus sir. I don't know what a FreeBSD is Sir but if you click on the start menu....

What's that sir? You'd like to put it on your ipod for the train home? Unfortunately sir, the WMA version of the album wont play on your iPod, but i can do a one time special offer of another 8 quid for the AAC version, except that's not available to download in your country yet sir. Yes it's available in the UK sir. You are in the UK? Ah but because you work for an american company, sir, we think you're in america sir. No i can't change that sir.

No sir, i can't refund your WMA purchase, there are no refunds for digitally copied music sir.

Gahhhh!!!

The end result is the numpty who pays for things (me!!!) gets a crap product, where as Joe Soap who downloads everything, his all just works. That's incredibly unfair. I pay but get the crap version of the product.

P.S. inside knowledge, although its fairly common knowledge now... if you're a Sky customer in the UK, last year you were issued with a new sky card for no apparent reason... yeah that's right, the old method was cracked...

P.P.S. RossTech's an exception here -- the authentic cables don't make life harder for honest folk. Their chosen mechanism is plug and play. This is the *only* example i know of where a protection mechanism actually makes things pretty easy for the buyer / owner. It still doesn't do what it's supposed to though...

Am I correct in thinking that vag-com developed from vwtool which was a diagnostic tool?

No, not correct. Yes, the owner of Ross-Tech did try to acquire VWtool and did have a copy of it. But no, VAG-COM was developed from scratch.

Also did one of the partners in vwtool die and the other partner continue on and develop vag-com?

To the best of my knowledge, VWtool was developed and owned by one party. When he died, his estate sold VWtool to Baum tools. Baum was expected to continue development but did not do much with the product. It now is a dead product and Baum offers the Programma tool.

May I ask what the point is? Are you now trying to insinuate that Ross-Tech copied the VW tool and again Ross-Tech did not develop the product with our sweat and hard work? If so, I assure, we do not mislead any on this forum. We certainly are not perfect. But we are up front and open in discussing with members here and in many other forums. So, what are you driving at? I'll do my best to not be snarky and honestly answer your questions.

Edited 19 March, 201016 yr by bearthebruce

Thanks for your comments Bruce.

As a full blown VCDS user I appreciate your time and efforts and I will continue using your product grateful that you put all of that effort into making it the product that it is.

X2

Carl

Are there documented instances of people mucking up their ECU's by using cheap leads or could this just be due to user error with the software? The leads themselves I guess from what I am reading must come with pirate versions of Ross-Tech software is this correct? There is no other software that will do the same thing?

Yes, there is one such instance on this forum. The member concerned managed to flash their dashpod with duff software which pretended to be something else.

While your post is very informative and useful Mannyo, I can't agree with this one. VCDS has no flash/write capabilities and so the person involved must have been using another piece of software/hardware.

VCDS can be dangerous in the wrong hands there's no doubt about that, though.

While your post is very informative and useful Mannyo, I can't agree with this one. VCDS has no flash/write capabilities and so the person involved must have been using another piece of software/hardware.

VCDS can be dangerous in the wrong hands there's no doubt about that, though.

There are a few ways, you can mess things up with no way back.

My favourite is limiting the top speed of the car to a really low speed and then discovering the setting can only be lowered.

But there pretty much isn't a system out there that's not been cracked.

Internet banking systems? The only way to bypass those seems to be to send out phishing e-mails and hope someone who's had a few too many pints is checking their e-mails and will put their login details in right.

Internet banking systems? The only way to bypass those seems to be to send out phishing e-mails and hope someone who's had a few too many pints is checking their e-mails and will put their login details in right.

No, internet banking's been cracked too :'( -- http://hackaday.com/2008/12/30/25c3-hackers-completely-break-ssl-using-200-ps3s/

Its particularly nasty, because the banks are trying to put the onus on their customers for any breaches here.

EDIT: fixed link, paste error by me :-/

Edited 20 March, 201016 yr by Mute

While your post is very informative and useful Mannyo, I can't agree with this one. VCDS has no flash/write capabilities and so the person involved must have been using another piece of software/hardware.

VCDS can be dangerous in the wrong hands there's no doubt about that, though.

This persons CD came with VAG-COM and some other software, I think by mistake they ran the wrong exe file and the software wrote duff info to the dashpod resulting in them needing to purchase a new dashpod because even the dealer was unable to sort it out..

So if I understand everything here correctly, Ross-tech have reverse engineered the VAG-Com codes and put this into their own "not authorised by VAG software". Lots of people buy this because it is much cheaper than the authorised software. The software has a few lines of code in it that look for a -Ross tech supplied cable/dongle. The cheapy versions have reverse-engineered this and provide a cable/dongle that imitates what Ross-tech's do. This process is not protectable, which is why companies like Mercury/HP have removed it from use in their software testing tools. After all the software itself is freely available for download from their site.

Ross-tech and everyone here argue that using the cheapy cables is dangerous, but I cannot see what the difference between them and the ross-tech supplied cable is, other than the ross-tech software will look for a ross-tech cable. Once you get round this, there is no difference as a ross-tech cable is not intrinsically better? I know from looking at the disclaimer on the Ross-tech webite, if their software damages your ECU, it pretty much says that's your tough luck and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm not promoting or condoning buying a fleabay version, it just looks to me like there is no difference whatsoever between the fleabay and ross-tech version. If it is illegal, and ross-tech have a legal right to protect what they do, why are there fleabay traders who have sold hundreds, if not thousands of these cables without ross-tech taking legal action against them?

Edited 24 March, 201016 yr by Irvtheswerv

So if I understand everything here correctly, Ross-tech have reverse engineered the VAG-Com codes and put this into their own "not authorised by VAG software". Lots of people buy this because it is much cheaper than the authorised software. The software has a few lines of code in it that look for a -Ross tech supplied cable/dongle. The cheapy versions have reverse-engineered this and provide a cable/dongle that imitates what Ross-tech's do. This process is not protectable, which is why companies like Mercury/HP have removed it from use in their software testing tools. After all the software itself is freely available for download from their site.

Ross-tech and everyone here argue that using the cheapy cables is dangerous, but I cannot see what the difference between them and the ross-tech supplied cable is, other than the ross-tech software will look for a ross-tech cable. Once you get round this, there is no difference as a ross-tech cable is not intrinsically better? I know from looking at the disclaimer on the Ross-tech webite, if their software damages your ECU, it pretty much says that's your tough luck and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm not promoting or condoning buying a fleabay version, it just looks to me like there is no difference whatsoever between the fleabay and ross-tech version. If it is illegal, and ross-tech have a legal right to protect what they do, why are there fleabay traders who have sold hundreds, if not thousands of these cables without ross-tech taking legal action against them?

You're obviously not a software engineer, because they people have not reverse engineered the VCDS cables and firmware and software, they have just copies the whole lot lock stock and just hacked the software so it doesn't check for validation or have copied the validation hardware.

They then sell it as there version.

I wouldn't trust any hacked software as you have no idea what else they have put in there.

Reverse engineering is not the same as cracking software and then ripping it off.

I really think you need to find out the difference between the two before you comment any more.

As for the cables, anyone can make a vanilla cable that will work with HEX and the shareware version 4.01 of the tool.

Making a newer version of the cable that works with newer software would be illegal. Making a version of the software work with a non licensed cable would also be illegal.

Problem with the sue idea, is you try and find a (for example) Chinese vendor and sue them in china, which isn't exactly well known for it's IP protection. It will cost a fortune and you'll probably not get anywhere.

Better to just counter the issue than try and sue them.

Cloned hardware is often very poor quality components with even more questionable construction and soldering.

It's not like VCDS is expensive.. I guess I couldn't blame people for buying the cheaper versions if VCDS was £6000 but it's £230 for pete's sake. If you want that capability, then buy the proper gear! End of!

Actually I am a software engineer and I was taking the p**s and trying to avoid being contentious, but since you don't want to adopt the same approach....... VAG-COM rom Ross-tech looks like not very good software to me with an amazingly shabby interface from what I've seen. I could do something better if I had the time. Oh and the people selling the so called illegal leads are based in the UK not, China, and it would be easy to sue them or have them prosecuted if it were illegal (and since I'm also an ex-officer of the law with a specialisation in prosecuting for copyright offences, I respectfully suggest I know more about this than you obviously do).

Actually I am a software engineer and I was taking the p**s and trying to avoid being contentious, but since you don't want to adopt the same approach....... VAG-COM rom Ross-tech looks like not very good software to me with an amazingly shabby interface from what I've seen. I could do something better if I had the time. Oh and the people selling the so called illegal leads are based in the UK not, China, and it would be easy to sue them or have them prosecuted if it were illegal (and since I'm also an ex-officer of the law with a specialisation in prosecuting for copyright offences, I respectfully suggest I know more about this than you obviously do).

1) If you can do better, bring it on. We've heard it before and yet no one bothers. Why? Copying what we have done is the only way they can keep their development costs to a minimum and offer a lower cost product.

2) We do take action against the sellers of clone hardware in the UK on a regular basis. We do know what it takes to shut them down. The problem is that the sources for the illegal products cannot be shut down because their government does not support an outsider taking action against a company in their country. So, as soon as we stop one seller on one site, they open up a new site under a new name and we get to start the process all over again. It's a cost of doing business I suppose.

[What? A cost of doing business? That means there has to be margin to cover these costs? But Ross-Tech is ripping everybody off with their high prices! They don't have costs. After all they stole everything from the VAG group - right Irvtheswerv?]

3) The hardware and the software to communicate with the car is only a small part of what it takes to deliver this product. We also mine data to put in the product and to put it out on the internet so users like yourself can have access to the information needed to repair/modify your own car.

Irvtheswerv, don't tell us what you can do. As Yoda said, "No can - Just Do!" Make the effort and do it. Decide what your effort is worth in the market place and sell your competing product. Don't copy what any other has done - make sure your product is much better than all others. If you really want to make it the sweet deal you say you can deliver, offer it at the clone prices. When you have that, let us know so we can stand up and applaud your effort, your genius and your dedication to bringing the best at the lowest price.

Bruce already stated a lot of facts but let me bring some more into this conversation...

The legality of reverse engineering is indeed depending on each countries law, at the present time what we do is totally legal and we do not just copy what we see. If any of you ever worked with the factory tool and compared it to VCDS you will see that there is a lot of common ground, simply because the basics have to be the same as the actual commands/functions provided by the control modules are the same as well. If you look at the differences between VCDS and the VAS software you will also notice that VCDS does take care of a lot of flaws the VAS has and gives it's users a lot of power compared to guided functions for that matter. Of course this does not solve the question of legality, so lets view it from a different angle....

Per current law vehicle manufacturers have to provide scan tool manufacturers with in depth details about how stuff works. Fact is, they don't. ALL scan tool manufacturers (Snap-On, AVL, Gutmann, Bosch etc.) are doing the same reverse engineering as we are and as you may have noticed there some really big names here. Do you really think they would all do this if it was illegal as some of you stated? Truth is, it's not.

So back to why the cheapy leads are illegal copies... Bruce tried to circumvent the exact reasons but it seems as it is time to give a clear picture. Each interface contains of several electronic components. Neither these components nor their design are directly copyright effected BUT the micro controller which is used does come with a proprietary firmware. This firmware is completely based on Ross-Tech (or it's affiliates) and not based on anything else, so copying this firmware/software is obviously not legal but there is more to it. The license which makes each interface unique is embedded into this micro processor as well, copying that is another violation. All serial numbers copied are being blacklisted and therefor not usable anymore in newer versions.

Now Irvtheswerv, with your vast knowledge - do you agreed that copying and supplying interface hardware like this in combination with our software is clearly an illegal act?

At last let me add some personal comments. We have done exactly this discussion numerous times and sure not the first time in this forum as well. If what we were doing is illegal, why does VW themselves buy our tools? Why do countless dealerships and technicians use our product? Why do technical trainers (those who teach VW technicians) suggest our product for certain applications? Don't you think that VW would do everything in their power (and believe it or not, they have a lot of that) to stop us? (This is a rhetorical question, please do not bother replying.)

This thread is beginning to smell like burning batteries

This thread is beginning to smell like burning batteries

Agreed! We all need to move on. ......

I read couple comments and did not found so much pluses and minuses of cheap eBay cables

So basically PLEASE people stop talking with software it will used on the eBay cables as it is no pint to discus It think it is useless

THE POINT IS DOES IT WOK WITH CAR OR NOT

I NEED TO KNOW HOW GOOD ARE AND DOES IT CLONE OF ROS TECH ?

ONE EXAMPLE WHAT I FOUND ALL THE TIME IN THIS DISCUSSION:

IF YOU ALL SO GOOD PEOPLE AND LOOKING FOR EVERYTHING LEGAL ETC SO PLEASE WHEN SOMEONE FROM YOU WILL DRIVE ON MOTORWAYS WHERE IS LIMIT SPEED 70 MILES AND MAYBE SOMEONE OF YOU WILL BE DRIVING 75-90 MILES PLEASE GO AND REPORT YOURSELF TO THE POLICE OF HIGER SPEED DRIVING AND PLEASE PAY FOR POINTS HOW MUCH YOU WILL GET

SOMEONE MAKE JOKES STORIES ABOUT PIRACY OR ETC

IM TIRED ABOUT PEOPLE HOW IS JUST JEALOUSY BECAUSE SOMEONE HAVE GET MORE CHEAPER THEN THEY AND LATER AFTER COUPLE MINUTES GOING TO REPORT THEM TO (GOVERNMENT)

AND LATER STANDING AND SMILING WHEN THESE PEOPLE GET TY PAY SOME FEE FOR ……

I CAL THESE PEOPLE FFFF…. AND IF IT IS POSIBILITY TO DO SOMETHING BAD TO THEM WILL BE THE BEST DAY I DON THINK THEY ARE GODS AND THEY WILL MAKE MISTAKES AND THEN MY TIME WILL COME TO TAKE BACK AND WILL BE LAUGH IN THE FACE