Hi,

I've been investigating air filters and mainly the old argument of paper V cotton V foam. All the independent tests i've seen online have physical documentation and pictures proving that high performance air filters such as K&N let in substantially more dirt into your engine and actually do not allow much airflow. It is negligable and doesnt give any noticeable performance increase or better economy despite what k&n suggest on their website.

I've been in contact with AMSOIL regarding their nano filter but unfortunately they cannot design one for the fabia due to R&D costs and the fact they'd need a min order of about 100 if it were possible. This filter i'm sure would be far superior to any OEM or performance version due to its construction.

I'm not Anti K&N i've just been looking at things from differing views and have to the conclusion there's more negatives than positives with performance filters

Anyway to cut a long story short i emailed k&n to put some questions to them and I was very disappointed with their answer. Despite mentioning i'd already read their website, They asked me to refer to the FAQ on their website, which i have done several times. I've even listened to the audio book and watched the videos. Also it should be noted that their technical dept cannot spell because they called the "coarse dust test" "course dust test". This error was corrected when someone(not affiliated with k&n) pointed it out to them and they changed the wording on their website.

Below are the emails. Not impressed and if their products are the "best" as they claim why is it all such a grey area. If anyone wants to see the independent test carried out by a qualified engineer let me know as i have a url for it i could post it.

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: 07 April 2010 18:43

To: UK.SALES

Subject: K&N filter part number Part 33-2830

Hi,

I've read and seen the explanatory videos about your performance air filter (panel type) which replaces the OEM filter in the airbox and have heard many different opinions and would like your comments please.

They damage the MAF due to the oil coming off them

If the installer over-oils them this could be the cause of the above.

The filtration level of the K&N is below par and hence why manufacturers do not use them in their vehicles

I've visited several forums(over the last 6 months) including briskoda which i'm a member of and the opinion is that there is negliable or no difference felt after installing the K&N. No effect on performance or fuel economy is felt. Some users even sell on the K&N and go back to using a paper one when they realise (in their opinion) it was a "waste of money"

I am aware that you did do testing on some 100 odd MAF sensors (as seen on your videos) and found none to be effected by K&N oil, but were these independent tests? Have you ever considered getting this independently verified to prove the doubters wrong?

How do you know the K&N air filter gives an increase of 1-4bhp? if there as you have admitted on your website many variables and many different types of cars? have you tested them on each application in order to get that estimate?

What is the filtration level of the K&N?

Why do you recommend cleaning it every 50k? I have tested OEM paper filters at varying intervals, of different brands (Mann, UFI,Bosch,VW) and have myself discovered that even after 15k the filter is extremely dirty and needs replacing I have seen pictures of K&N cotton filters at similar levels and the condition of them is much to be desired.

I personally have never used a performance air filter but did use one of your induction kits (57i) many moons ago. I would like to be able to have confidence in your "drop in filter" but would appreciate it if you could answer the above please?

thanks

reply

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Subject: RE: K&N filter part number Part 33-2830

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Thank you for your enquiry. All the information and frequently asked question can be seen on www.knfilters.com. The information is provided by K&N and compiled over forty very successful years. I would only add one or two points. Almost all vehicle manufacturers use our air filters on the race scene. The reason they have no interest in K&N for standard production vehicles??.... they last too long. Much better to have a filter that ends up on a landfill site. Very green?

Servicing the K&N. I have seen K&N air filters (in most parts of the world) with three to four millimetres of dust on the element flowing more air than a standard throw away. We have air flow demonstration units that can be seen at exhibitions all over the world. Well worth a visit. You are also welcome to pay a visit to our UK site where I would be happy to demonstrate the unit myself. Just to pre-empt, more air does not mean more dust. I can only add that that the World`s Best Air Filters are full of +`s and very little in the way of -`s.

Regards

Don Marshall

Technical Assistance

K&N FILTERS (EUROPE) LTD

Edited 8 April, 201016 yr by newskoda

Well thats cleared that up then!!!

K:)

Even with a strut brace, I prefer to put in a new paper filter every six months to bothering with anything aftermarket. Sure, it's a little more expensive in the long run, but there's no issue with oiling the MAF (NB: Pipercross do a dry filter if you're interested), and you get a much better filtration rate which to my mind is essential if a turbo's in the equation. Motorsport blah-blah-blah, but a race or rally car gets stripped down every time it's driven, so there isn't going to be time for particulate entering the induction circuit to cause significant abrasion to turbo wheels etc.

As for 'green', K&N can kiss my sweaty ballcocks, as there's no way 1 filter + aerosol cans of cleaning fluid and bottles of oil causes less harm to the environment than a succession of paper filters (which could be recycled apart from the rubber bits if you were that eco-friendly!)

Regardless of the above, a diesel car runs on excess air anyway, so much like the PD160 intake, all a 'performance' filter will do is help reduce the smokescreen produced at full throttle - you won't get any measurable performance increase as not all of the oxygen gets used in combustion anyway...

HTH

There's a lot of BS in that reply...

Manufacturers don't use them because they need a filter that any service monkey can change in a few minutes. Would you really want the work experience guy to wash and oil your filter? How much would that cost in labour?

Green, LOL. Solvents and oils!!

Racing. They do use oiled filters but I bet they change them for every race.

Performance. The OE filters are very good and I wouldn't suggest anything else for a standard car.

For modified engines, they are often worth the money as every little helps.

When comparing their filter to the OE one, the manufacturers choose worst case - end of life of OE filter vs half mileage before needing clean.

Do they damage the MAF? No - see other thread

Even with a strut brace, I prefer to put in a new paper filter every six months to bothering with anything aftermarket. Sure, it's a little more expensive in the long run, but there's no issue with oiling the MAF (NB: Pipercross do a dry filter if you're interested), and you get a much better filtration rate which to my mind is essential if a turbo's in the equation. Motorsport blah-blah-blah, but a race or rally car gets stripped down every time it's driven, so there isn't going to be time for particulate entering the induction circuit to cause significant abrasion to turbo wheels etc.

As for 'green', K&N can kiss my sweaty ballcocks, as there's no way 1 filter + aerosol cans of cleaning fluid and bottles of oil causes less harm to the environment than a succession of paper filters (which could be recycled apart from the rubber bits if you were that eco-friendly!)

Regardless of the above, a diesel car runs on excess air anyway, so much like the PD160 intake, all a 'performance' filter will do is help reduce the smokescreen produced at full throttle - you won't get any measurable performance increase as not all of the oxygen gets used in combustion anyway...

HTH

here here!

I also have been changing my oem air filter regularly and i wanted to explore the benefits of performance air filters. after months of looking into have to say i'm very disappointed with K&N and think they are just very clever at marketing their stuff. Other well known performance air filter manufacturers have not replied back to my questions or provided me with any data sheets. At elast k&n did but there answer is simply not good enough

Stick to oem. Done the filter (green) and PD intake. Result. Back to standard

There's a lot of BS in that reply...

Do they damage the MAF? No - see other thread

I hope you mean K&N's and not mine?! :p

As for oily MAFs, does that mean PX's dry filters for VAG cars are double-bluff marketing? Not going to sway me either way, but it's an interesting suggestion don't you think?

Just use a Pipercross

I hope you mean K&N's and not mine?! :p

As for oily MAFs, does that mean PX's dry filters for VAG cars are double-bluff marketing? Not going to sway me either way, but it's an interesting suggestion don't you think?

Yeah, I meant the reply from K&N.

PX are kind of correct. If you don't use oil you can't get an oily MAF, however, If you follow the K&N instructions to the letter/use the correct oil in the correct quantity at the recommended interval there isn't any problem.

The problem is that many folks think that more oil/more often has to be better and this does cause problems.

Yeah, I meant the reply from K&N.

PX are kind of correct. If you don't use oil you can't get an oily MAF, however, If you follow the K&N instructions to the letter/use the correct oil in the correct quantity at the recommended interval there isn't any problem.

The problem is that many folks think that more oil/more often has to be better and this does cause problems.

however! k&n issued a statement.(complete with video interview)..their CEO saying that no matter how much oil you put on the oil will not come off even at crazy air speeds. So this contradicts the opinion that over-oiling can cause MAF failures. The testing was carried out by k&n themselves. I'm sure it is reliable

Yeah, I meant the reply from K&N.

PX are kind of correct. If you don't use oil you can't get an oily MAF, however, If you follow the K&N instructions to the letter/use the correct oil in the correct quantity at the recommended interval there isn't any problem.

The problem is that many folks think that more oil/more often has to be better and this does cause problems.

Whats people's opinion of 'tg' they are a UK company based in coventry. I was up there with a mate of this site who was having a fancy filter fitted to his Octavia, not a panel but they use this spray on oil which is sticky and soaks into the foam after you rub it in. They come across as a very professional set up, they do F1 stuff for RedBull and marine filters for big boats.

Anyone tried them. Better I suspect than a yank company like K&N. Yank as in American rather than anything else!!!

Whats people's opinion of 'tg' they are a UK company based in coventry. I was up there with a mate of this site who was having a fancy filter fitted to his Octavia, not a panel but they use this spray on oil which is sticky and soaks into the foam after you rub it in. They come across as a very professional set up, they do F1 stuff for RedBull and marine filters for big boats.

Anyone tried them. Better I suspect than a yank company like K&N. Yank as in American rather than anything else!!!

Do you mean "ITG". they make the pro filter and megaflow as well as others. problem with the pro filter is that over time dirt will get trapped in the 2nd and third layers of the reticulated foam and you will not be able to wash this out. Got to admit tho was surprised they went against K&N's opinion regarding oiling an MAFS.

"27. Will a K&N filter cause my vehicle's mass air sensor to fail?

No, it is both impossible and ridiculous. "(taken from K&N FAQ website)

ITG suggests here http://www.itgairfilters.com/downloads/General%20oiling%20and%20cleanin...pdf that if the oil does not stick to the "material" or is not absorbed properly then there is "risk of causing engine or MAF damage"

K&N state that over-oiling does not cause MAF damage. In fact you could over oil it hundred times over and still it wont come off (according to k&n)

Worth reading this too http://mymiata.paladinmicro.com/K&NComments.htm

and for independent tests bobthe oil guy http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

Edited 8 April, 201016 yr by newskoda

When I was a little younger and a girl racer, I had K&N filters on my Strada Abarth 130TC (previous owner had put them on and was very proud of the fact). I have to say in about 3 years of driving I had zero problems with them and they sounded brilliant. They even let the odd blue flash through when the car was first started Ah, proper engines

I used one once on a clanky Ford CVH engine with no problems - car manufacturers need to make every £ count so original fit filters are adequate and cheap, original exhausts are adequate and cheap and original suspension is adequate and cheap - but quite a lot of people choose to go the "performance" root when they need replaced - and why not, freedom of choice is what its all about, if fitting it feels right then it is right for you.

When I was a little younger and a girl racer, I had K&N filters on my Strada Abarth 130TC (previous owner had put them on and was very proud of the fact). I have to say in about 3 years of driving I had zero problems with them and they sounded brilliant. They even let the odd blue flash through when the car was first started Ah, proper engines

Ah the good old Strada - or Ritmo as it was called everywhere else - but in UK that sounded too much like a lawnmower name - so Fiat UK gave it a special new name!

Ah the good old Strada - or Ritmo as it was called everywhere else - but in UK that sounded too much like a lawnmower name - so Fiat UK gave it a special new name!

And you remember what they used to say FIAT standed for?

Fix

It

Again

Tommorrow!

Edited 17 April, 201016 yr by mrgf

FORD would have been

Fix

Often

Rusts

Daily !

Any more out there?

Edited 17 April, 201016 yr by mrgf

I use a pipercross filter. I just use soap and water to clean. No need for oil. It definitely improves performance, be it only slightly. I can feel the difference when I put in the OEM filter whilst waiting for the pipercross one to dry. I do clean it 2-3times a year coz it does get dirty.

Agree with ^^ Pipercross washed every 5K. Easy. 125K and no problems.

Agree with ^^ Pipercross washed every 5K. Easy. 125K and no problems.

Do you guys use the kits or simply soap and water?