New 4x4 Estate: 1.6TDI CR vs 1.9TDI PD. Which?

[GoneToBeemer]

i have an '09 octavia SE 1.9 PD 105 as a courtesy car until i pick mine up. The biggest problem I have noticed is the lack of a 6th gear, once the engine hits about 2800k it gets quite noisy in the cabin. Have to say though I went down to Lancaster yesterday and with a combination of B-roads and motorways it averaged 56.4 mpg and I wasn't taking it easy! I have never driven one of the new 1.6 CR motors but after owning a PD130 fabia vRS a few years ago I still think the 1.9 is a damn good engine, albeit rather unrefined compared to the newer diesels about!

[cheezemonkhai]

To the OP, Sounds like a nice car and I hope you enjoy it.

"I take the opinion that the power required by a driver is inversely proportional to their skill. In other words, it makes up for their inability to read the road and plan ahead adequately. Harsh, but fair."

Harsh, fair and honest! Never have truer words been spoken. Invariably some with more power than road sense feel it and all the other modern auto gismos will get them out of a sticky situation and so just don't read the road or plan correctly . You can have all the power in the world but if you have no road sense then you are headed for disaster.Driving is about being safe and considerate to other road users. The public highway is not a race track (although some might think so)and is not intended to be.Anyone can drive fast but can they drive safely?

Says the driver, who got the 2.0 TDI rather than a lower powered version, got a car with 4x4 that will include the electronic gismos.

I mean if what you say is the case, then a 105bhp engine, with FWD and none of the electronics is all you would ever need!

Yes, you can drive a car with no power just fine (68bhp XUD in an estate car) but having that power makes dealing with the idiot that wants to stop a perfectly acceptable overtake easier.

Lets face it no matter how much people look ahead and plan (roadcraft or not) eventually they will make a bad judgment.

Having the extra power and a few tricks like ABS etc can help you get out of the mess you may have just got yourself into.

Failing that somebody needs to tell the M5/AMG drivers they are all unable to drive and should go for a 800cc 1 tonne car with 50bhp.

Edited 19 May, 2010 by cheezemonkhai

[morganic]

To the OP, Sounds like a nice car and I hope you enjoy it.

Says the driver, who got the 2.0 TDI rather than a lower powered version, got a car with 4x4 that will include the electronic gismos.

I mean if what you say is the case, then a 105bhp engine, with FWD and none of the electronics is all you would ever need!

Yes, you can drive a car with no power just fine (68bhp XUD in an estate car) but having that power makes dealing with the idiot that wants to stop a perfectly acceptable overtake easier.

Lets face it no matter how much people look ahead and plan (roadcraft or not) eventually they will make a bad judgment.

Having the extra power and a few tricks like ABS etc can help you get out of the mess you may have just got yourself into.

Failing that somebody needs to tell the M5/AMG drivers they are all unable to drive and should go for a 800cc 1 tonne car with 50bhp.

I have to ask what my car has to do with it. I am merely expressing a view.I have my car for specific tasks and only to get me out of sticky situations-ie mud and snow. I would prefer it had less gismos- less to go wrong .I prefer to rely on driver training , road awareness and experience and that isn't always infallible. Drivers often get into a mess by the misuse of power without the training to handle it..Power does not equal safety and in the wrong hands can mean danger. I could have had the lower powered car but one wasnt available and didnt suit my needs -I had a 105bhp 2WD and that was okay but not towing up muddy lanes.

Edited 19 May, 2010 by morganic

[cheezemonkhai]

I have to ask what my car has to do with it. I am merely expressing a view.I have my car for specific tasks and only to get me out of sticky situations-ie mud and snow. I would prefer it had less gismos- less to go wrong .I prefer to rely on driver training , road awareness and experience and that isn't always infallible. Drivers often get into a mess by the misuse of power without the training to handle it..Power does not equal safety and in the wrong hands can mean danger. I could have had the lower powered car but one wasnt available and didnt suit my needs -I had a 105bhp 2WD and that was okay but not towing up muddy lanes.

I think you just made my point.

You said you couldn't agree more about the people who have power can not drive comment.

You yourself have said you have the more powerful engine and the 4x4 to get you out of sticky situations. (including some git speeding up as you overtake).

I think you'll find that most sensible people don't rely on gadgets to get them out of trouble and just using your brain and eyes properly will obviously save you more than gadgets.

I have to say that 105bhp in an almost 1.5 metric tonne car does not make for swift progress and is probably similar to the slow progress I mentioned of older cars. This can cause danger when you don't have the speed to pull out in fast traffic. Eg joining the motorway at Southampton airport has you going onto the M/way and the left lane goes off within 100 yards to the M3, so for the M27 you have to pull on and across a lane, when there are many people trying to pull off to the M27.

This is not easy at a busy time in a car with low power.

Now I'm not saying you must have loads of power, but at the same time, you have to have a decent amount for the vehicle.

FWIW, if you put the correct tyres on a FWD drive car for mud, it will work a lot better than a 4x4 with road tyres on

Edited 19 May, 2010 by cheezemonkhai

[morganic]

I think you just made my point.

You said you couldn't agree more about the people who have power can not drive comment.

You yourself have said you have the more powerful engine and the 4x4 to get you out of sticky situations. (including some git speeding up as you overtake).

I think you'll find that most sensible people don't rely on gadgets to get them out of trouble and just using your brain and eyes properly will obviously save you more than gadgets.

I have to say that 105bhp in an almost 1.5 metric tonne car does not make for swift progress and is probably similar to the slow progress I mentioned of older cars. This can cause danger when you don't have the speed to pull out in fast traffic. Eg joining the motorway at Southampton airport has you going onto the M/way and the left lane goes off within 100 yards to the M3, so for the M27 you have to pull on and across a lane, when there are many people trying to pull off to the M27.

This is not easy at a busy time in a car with low power.

Now I'm not saying you must have loads of power, but at the same time, you have to have a decent amount for the vehicle.

FWIW, if you put the correct tyres on a FWD drive car for mud, it will work a lot better than a 4x4 with road tyres on

Agree with some points but not sure about FWD with M&S (mud and snow) tyres being better than 4X4 with road tyres certainly not when towing.I have driven in mud all my life and my experience is you can get along with FWD by using high profile, narrow , M&S tyres and starting off in a higher gear without stalling engine.Trouble is manufacturers want to sell you wide tyres with narrow profiles-not good in mud and snow as they float/skate/skid over it. So you have to have 2 sets of wheels one summer one winter and who wants to be changing them on a cold windy night!

I dont have a more powerful engine to get me out a sticky situation when the idiot tries to race you when you are overtaking but I do appreciate ABS when the idiot overtaking, because he has more power and thinks he will take a chance, cuts in on me and I have to brake hard!

Edited 19 May, 2010 by morganic

[Raglits]

I dont have a more powerful engine to get me out a sticky situation when the idiot  tries to race you when you are overtaking but I do appreciate ABS when the idiot overtaking, because he has more power and thinks he will take a chance, cuts in on me and I have to brake hard!

Not being funny, but if he's overtaken you that means he's going faster than you so you shouldn't have to brake hard, just coming off the throttle for a second once he's pulled out means he'll clear you faster anyway...

And apparently, I can't drive 

[dieseldarren]

None taken, but if people actually allowed you to over take instead of speeding up when you pull out to go past them I wouldn't have to book that appointment. I've even had people pull to the right when I've attempted to overtake them... It's not just me that needs to learn how to drive...

I average somewhere between 25-30K a year depending on where the work is and use my mirrors, am aware of where other traffic is, move to the left when I've overtaken on a motorway or dual carraigeway and assist when someone is trying to overtake me on a narrow road by keeping as far left as is safe and coming off the throttle when they've pulled out.

If more people actually did things like that then people would not get frustrated. What is the point, when someone is obviously going faster than you, in being a complete **** and trying to hold them up?

Interesting thread.

I'm coming to the conclusion that some people must believe that overtaking on single carriageway roads is illegal.

As I've also experienced those that speed up simply because they're being overtaken.

Wonder if they ever do it to unmarked Police cars & if they get a "talking to"?

Especially annoying are the 40mph everywhere brigade.

60mph A road, enough traffic in opposite drection to prevent an overtake, trundling along at 40mph.

Enter a 30mph village, they pull away, because they're still doing 40mph.

Out in the open, still doing 40mph.

Anyway, I suppose with the price of fuel going up as ever, we'll soon be having, 1.6CR or 1.2CR debates.

I'd personally prefer a larger engine that's running at lower revs, than a small one working harder,

for both durability and a more relaxed drive. But then again, my cars tend to be over 100k miles anyway.

[Steve vRS]

What he said!

I also hate the fact that a huge queue forms behind a HGV as no one will pass it when there are perfectly safe opportunities to do so. They then refuse to leave large enough gaps for staged overtakes.

Steve

[morganic]

Not being funny, but if he's overtaken you that means he's going faster than you so you shouldn't have to brake hard, just coming off the throttle for a second once he's pulled out means he'll clear you faster anyway...

And apparently, I can't drive 

Dont know what you mean by "I cant drive" Do you mean you dont drive or your driving standard is poor?

I am talking about the driver who thinks he can get a Superb estate into a Mini slot and cuts in on you when travelling at 70 mph. Cannot understand your reasoning about taking foot off throttle for second if some one overtakes you -when every time.

Yes there are times when you should ease off because you have a responsibility to other road users-its all about road awareness such as road surface conditions, visibility, speed of vehicles etc. and I forgot manners!

Edited 19 May, 2010 by morganic

[Raglits]

Dont know what you mean by "I cant drive" Do you mean you dont drive or your driving standard is poor?

I am talking about the driver who thinks he can get a Superb estate into a Mini slot  and cuts in on you when travelling at 70 mph. Cannot understand your reasoning about taking foot off throttle for second if some one overtakes you -when every time.

The "I can't drive" was a dig at myself from a comment made by another poster earlier in the thread about my apparent driving ability. I don't consider my driving standard to be poor, but equally, I am not arrogant enough to think I'm perfect either. I've had a trained police driver compliment me after giving him a lift about my observation skills and awareness of traffic and pedestrians (I wasn't aware my mates dad was a police driver when I agreed to drop him off somewhere so wasn't out to impress)

No, I'm not saying I take my foot off the throttle everytime someone overtakes me,especially on the motorway, in that case it's different, they can wait until I've finished my overtaking move and have pulled back into the middle or left lane...

If you read the whole thread and my comments earlier, I've already stated, that if someone is tanking down a country lane I don't speed up, or pull out to the right when they try and get past me, I wait til they've pulled out and then feather of the gas peddle (if required to make it safer) so they can get past easier. Obviously, if I'm in a queue of traffic (normally waiting to get past the afore mentioned 40mph everywhere driver)  then this is less likely to happen, but I use my common sense and don't actively obstruct people like some other drivers appear to enjoy doing.

Sometimes I'd rather the pillock who's driving like a loon is in front of me so I can create a gap between myself and him rather than have them rear end my car when we have to stop quickly...

[dieseldarren]

I think it's fair to say if we were all sat around a pub table discussing the driving standards element of this thread

we'd actually be pretty much in agreement.

[morganic]

The "I can't drive" was a dig at myself from a comment made by another poster earlier in the thread about my apparent driving ability. I don't consider my driving standard to be poor, but equally, I am not arrogant enough to think I'm perfect either. I've had a trained police driver compliment me after giving him a lift about my observation skills and awareness of traffic and pedestrians (I wasn't aware my mates dad was a police driver when I agreed to drop him off somewhere so wasn't out to impress)

No, I'm not saying I take my foot off the throttle everytime someone overtakes me,especially on the motorway, in that case it's different, they can wait until I've finished my overtaking move and have pulled back into the middle or left lane...

If you read the whole thread and my comments earlier, I've already stated, that if someone is tanking down a country lane I don't speed up, or pull out to the right when they try and get past me, I wait til they've pulled out and then feather of the gas peddle (if required to make it safer) so they can get past easier. Obviously, if I'm in a queue of traffic (normally waiting to get past the afore mentioned 40mph everywhere driver)  then this is less likely to happen, but I use my common sense and don't actively obstruct people like some other drivers appear to enjoy doing.

Sometimes I'd rather the pillock who's driving like a loon is in front of me so I can create a gap between myself and him rather than have them rear end my car when we have to stop quickly...

Good to hear you use awareness and observation skills when driving but I wouldn't take everything a police driver says as gospel and I do speak from some experience.

Probably the highest number of POLACs (police accidents) occur in station yards when reversing-and they are trained drivers!

[Raglits]

Good to hear you use awareness and observation skills when driving but I wouldn't take everything a police driver says as gospel and  I do speak from some experience.

Probably the highest number of POLACs (police accidents) occur in station yards when reversing-and they are trained drivers!

Nor would I as I've since been a passenger in his car 

[Cauliflower]

How appropriate that this thread comparing the 1.6TDi CR to the 1.9TDi PD has evolved into a debate about roadcraft vs performance.

Whether you have them or not, you'll certainly need greater skills of roadcraft with the 1.6TDi CR.

Edited 20 May, 2010 by Cauliflower

[Phil_P]

These days I find I'm more concerned with mpg, given I do >100 mile round trip to work; squeezing 70+mpg from the Polo by not booting it above 2000rpm reflects my current driving style.

For the avoidance of being stuck during the winter (we live in the sticks these days) we wanted a 4x4 to strap some all-season rubber to come November, therefore I discounted the 2wd option.

Even though the 1.6CR has its detractors, on paper I recon what we've got is still the most economical, cheapest to tax, cheapest to insure and cheapest new 4x4 out there.

Congrats on the order

Given what you say above, I reckon it will be a great choice for you and like you say, there's really nothing else out there to touch it.

Be sure to let us know what you think when it arrives.

[Raglits]

How appropriate that this thread comparing the 1.6TDi CR to the 1.9TDi PD has evolved into a debate about roadcraft vs performance.

Whether you have them or not, you'll certainly need greater skills of roadcraft with the 1.6TDi CR.

Depends on what car you're used to before the 1.6CR. If you're coming to it from a Matiz or similar you'll feel giddy with power when getting a 1.6CR

[Steve vRS]

There's a good chance I might be coming to a 1.6 diesel from a PD TDi vRS!

Given I spend 95% of my time behind the wheel at 65mph on a motorway, it seems a sensible choice. If a little depressing :'(

Still, with the money I save, I plan on having an MX5 for the remaining 5% of the driving time

steve

[silkysteve]

How appropriate that this thread comparing the 1.6TDi CR to the 1.9TDi PD has evolved into a debate about roadcraft vs performance.

Whether you have them or not, you'll certainly need greater skills of roadcraft with the 1.6TDi CR.

I'm certainly of the opinion that a better trained driver trumps a more powerful car. In a legal race across a major city between a highly trained driver in a 1.6D and an average driver in a petrol vRS, my money will always be on the car with the better trained driver. Even for the simple reason that better drivers don't slow down as often, so don't need the extra power to get moving again.

[skomaz]

Still, with the money I save, I plan on having an MX5 for the remaining 5% of the driving time

steve

[Cauliflower]

I'm certainly of the opinion that a better trained driver trumps a more powerful car. In a legal race across a major city between a highly trained driver in a 1.6D and an average driver in a petrol vRS, my money will always be on the car with the better trained driver. Even for the simple reason that better drivers don't slow down as often, so don't need the extra power to get moving again.

I'm equally of the opinion that a large proportion of drivers fit into broadly the same space in terms of skills and that a driver in this space with a responsive vehicle will trump an equally skilled driver with an unresponsive vehicle.

The creme de la creme of skilled drivers end up in Formula 1 where the car's performance is the predominant determinant of success.

[silkysteve]

I'm equally of the opinion that a large proportion of drivers fit into broadly the same space in terms of skills and that a driver in this space with a responsive vehicle will trump an equally skilled driver with an unresponsive vehicle.

I can assure you that's not the case. The vast majority of drivers are extremely poor at anything more than the basics, even if they think otherwise.

The creme de la creme of skilled drivers end up in Formula 1 where the car's performance is the predominant determinant of success.

Formula 1 and road driving are chalk and cheese and require a different skill set.

[Cauliflower]

Formula 1 and road driving are chalk and cheese and require a different skill set.

Can't agree, different skill priorities and levels but fundamentally the same underlying skills of judgement, co-ordination etc.

It's a bit of a no brainer really, if you have two people of equal ability, but one driving a car with a better, more responsive performance, the odds are stacked in his/her favour. Doesn't matter if they are taking the lead at Hockenheim, or trying to negotiate their way past slow moving B road traffic.

Edited 21 May, 2010 by Cauliflower

[Steve vRS]

But on track, it's not just the skill level that is a factor but the amount of risk a driver is wiling to tolerate.

On the road, the skill levels can be the same but the level of risk taking must be minimised.

So, track and road driving are a world apart.

Steve

PS I Do track days and am a member of IAM and that is two different driving styles

[Cauliflower]

But on track, it's not just the skill level that is a factor but the amount of risk a driver is wiling to tolerate.

On the road, the skill levels can be the same but the level of risk taking must be minimised.

So, track and road driving are a world apart.

Steve

PS I Do track days and am a member of IAM and that is two different driving styles

Steve vRS and the rest of you that think that way go google 'Lake Wobegon' effect.

Lambs to the slaughter...

[Steve vRS]

I have never stated nor inferred my abilities or lack of them

All I said was that I do track days and that I am a member of a road safety charity.

I stand by my statement that track and road driving are different.

Steve