Company car and carrying stuff

[gadgetman]

Having a ding dong with work about carrying stuff in the car.

Now we get an estate, yet the boot is full of spares, 3 boxes on the rear seats, and stuff in all passenger footwells. Work are now saying we will be carrying MORE stock in our cars.

Rightly I have pointed out this presents security issues, risks part damage, and is also unsafe. The reply was a van would be arranged for me (clearly a bluff call), which today I asked what van I would be getting.

I was told they would discuss if this is possible, yet would likely need to fold my seats flat instead.

Does anyone have any links to H&S law to load carrying in vehicles, or better, any news articles on employers facing repercussions for the injury of an employee due to loose items in the passenger area?

I really couldnt give a flying fig what vehicle I have. Vans are cheaper on tax, and more useful outside work

[Finlay Harp]

I dont know of any laws relating to this but I do know we had to have a special insurance policy to carry stock and samples. The police are also aware of this. You might want to check with your employer they have more than fully comp for you.

[gadgetman]

They sort their insurance, as it's there car. Cover note says fully comp, so anything else is their issue.

[trundlenut]

If your feely stroppy I suppose the things to consider are:

1. weight and position of the equipment you have - can you safely put it in / take it out / reach it without doing yourself an injury?

2. Is there are risk any of it could go flying around the inside of the car in an accident.

Ask them for the risk assessment for carrying the stuff in the car.

I have looked at it at work and we concluded that driving is probably the most risky thing we do and lifting things in and out of the car is one of the most dodgy things from a manual handling point of view and we have changed the way several jobs are done to take this into account.

Also I suspect the police will take a dim view of things if the company's car insurance isn't right and probably do you for it.

[VWD]

Having a ding dong with work about carrying stuff in the car.

Rightly I have pointed out this presents security issues, risks part damage, and is also unsafe. The reply was a van would be arranged for me (clearly a bluff call), which today I asked what van I would be getting.

I was told they would discuss if this is possible, yet would likely need to fold my seats flat instead.

Two points - not on HSE issues, but to add to you're arguments - if van , you'd need some sort of partition to stop stuff coming forward to meet you ,in event of a sudden stop,and if stuff heavy ,possibly some way of securing stuff to floor .

Similarly on estate -some form of cage between load area and you .And possibly some sort of load retention .

In both cases - 10 lb parcel at 30 MPH ,would be moving at 44 ft/sec ,momentum =44*10 ftlbs ,and of it stopped in 1"( i.e bent cage outward by 1") ,would need 44*10*12 lbs force to retain it ( almost 2.35 Tons) .Was an incident at my work few years ago - in a converted transit - rear had seating area behind driver . In an accident driver (wearing belt ) was crushed by rear sear passenger not wearing belt . ( sort of unguided missile) .Now why do road safety regs insist that kids in rear be restrained -

AT my last work -before we got metal partitions on Transits ( possibly on HSE grounds) our boss came back from a safety course to insist that all heavy material must be lashed down .

Edited 20 August, 2010 by VWD

[gadgetman]

Also I suspect the police will take a dim view of things if the company's car insurance isn't right and probably do you for it.

Not sure why you think the insurance might not be right. The insurance covers all aspects of the firm (liability, buildings, cars etc) given we are a service company. The car is fully comp, as per the generic cover note copy we carry. Askmid confirms the car is insured.

VWD: The calculations are exactly the kind of ammo I'm after. Yup, some stuff we carry can be heavy. Almost all items are metal, and one small part the size of an orange must weight nearly 1kg.

Some news articles or H&S bumf on the subject might wake them up to realise my "will this new stock level fit in our boots?" wasnt being pedantic.

Another thing is the boot area only has one of those pull out covers. I assume technically we should have something like a dog guard?

[BJM]

Any use - a bit general I know, but the code of practice in particular contains useful ammunition - particularly Sect. 3 regarding suitability of vehicles.

HSE vehicle load guidance

Dept of Transport Code of Practise

Vehicle safety is a bit of a weird area for historical reasons. Site vehicles are "covered" by the HSE, road vehicles by the Home Office

Edited 20 August, 2010 by BJM

[biomulv]

When we made the move from saloons , like the mondeo , to estates, we had to get dog gards fitted. The mesh material type one in my last Golf ( a 2008 SE estate ) was deemed enough.

Several of our guys have had notices served for having spares piled up in the back seats.

[VWD]

Any use - a bit general I know, but the code of practice in particular contains useful ammunition - particularly Sect. 3 regarding suitability of vehicles.

HSE vehicle load guidance

Dept of Transport Code of Practise

Vehicle safety is a bit of a weird area for historical reasons. Site vehicles are "covered" by the HSE, road vehicles by the Home Office

BUT- the safety of all in vehicle is responsibility of driver - like loading of vehicle - again driver's responsibility . Gadgetman ,much as it might pain you , it might be an idea to get some union backing, i.e join a union ,like Transport and general /RMMT . --that way if *hit hits fan you've got some backing .You can put worries to them and get some qualified person to advise .

[topcat2006]

Have you added the weight of what you are carrying yet and seen if it is within the limits of the car? I did that at one place I worked at with all our spares and tools we had to carry and got somewhere near 3/4 tonne which was overloaded for the cars we were carrying. Vans were quickly bought!.

This was after one of my colleagues had a rear end shunt - the impact was so hard the the rear seat catches were overcome by the load he was carrying and the seat backs folded forward.

Another company I worked with one of there guys had an accident carrying some tube and that went through the windscreen of the car - luckily he was not carrying a passenger.

Your company is obliged under health and safety law to make sure whatever you do it is done safely. You need to ask for a risk assessment and method statement to cover the distances you drive and the load you carry. If you do not have this and you have an accident you personally are liable as the driver is always responsible for the vehicle and the load he is carrying. If you have RA and MS at least you can tell the plod you were doing what your companies HSE department have told you to do.

You could also butter up a friendly traffic cop and ask for advice about what you are being asked to do by your company. Most of them are quite helpful. (some aren't either though!)

I must admit as an employer myself I would not have considered any of our engineers ever using anything but a van to carry tools and spares. Its also to do with image once you are on site too. A van is actually quite a good cheap method of advertising and very cost efficient to buy as you can claim VAT back too.

Hope this helps.

Tom

[gadgetman]

I shall get weighing!

Whilst aware driver is responsible, firm have never been one for putting anything in writing. Will happily make waves as a van is cheaper tax.

Manager reply about getting a van wa sarcastic, but as I have this in writing I'll use that as proof they obv know cars aren't suitable. Also have the bonus of if I'm the only one to get a van, then that won't bode well.

My colleagues won't be happy though as getting a van means they'll need to buy a car for personal use. I only use mine for work, so couldn't give a fig.

[VWD]

I shall get weighing!

Whilst aware driver is responsible, firm have never been one for putting anything in writing. Will happily make waves as a van is cheaper tax.

Manager reply about getting a van wa sarcastic, but as I have this in writing I'll use that as proof they obv know cars aren't suitable. Also have the bonus of if I'm the only one to get a van, then that won't bode well.

My colleagues won't be happy though as getting a van means they'll need to buy a car for personal use. I only use mine for work, so couldn't give a fig.

Might be worth having words with a union bloke - as said - possibly T&G , but you might need others to join- and some firms then get funny -but at least they'll give you lowdown on getting a HSE rep on site etc- looks like a long tightrope - been there ,and I'm not one to have my personal safety at work sat on .

But be careful - at one time I started stirring over firms demands that expenses were getting put on back burner - and I was one of first on redundancy list .

Edited 22 August, 2010 by VWD

[gadgetman]

But be careful - at one time I started stirring over firms demands that expenses were getting put on back burner - and I was one of first on redundancy list .

Which is my thoughts exactly

[BJM]

BUT- the safety of all in vehicle is responsibility of driver - like loading of vehicle - again driver's responsibility .

Sorry, I should have said ENFORCEMENT of vehicle safety.............

[cheezemonkhai]

Is it wrong to ask them to show you how to load the car up as they think fit. then once the manager has done that say to him "ok, so now you're going to go and and do an emergency stop from 60mph right?"

Think that would kind of prove the point or make him change his mind sharpish.

The least I'd expect would be rear seats down, a suitable lashing down and guard arrangement (possibly fixed down cages) and also nothing at all in the front foot well due to risk of it flying everywhere and injuring you in an accident. I'm also probably missing loads there too.

Edited 23 August, 2010 by cheezemonkhai

[gadgetman]

Trying to do it in writing, something which rarely happens.

As the reply says I can have a van, I'm waiting for the reply that says this will be ehen next changed in 12-18 months. So will wait until told to put the seats down.

I now have a suitable case study of a real life accident under very similar load circumstances.

[topcat2006]

I really would advise not putting the seats down. With them down you have no way of securing the load - at least with them up and the seat belts done up you may find the load is prevented from moving forward, but with seats down how do you secure that load? You cannot use the seats as lashing points as they have not been designed for it.

Tom

[gadgetman]

I really would advise not putting the seats down. With them down you have no way of securing the load - at least with them up and the seat belts done up you may find the load is prevented from moving forward, but with seats down how do you secure that load? You cannot use the seats as lashing points as they have not been designed for it.

Tom

Dont intend too

[topcat2006]

Jolly Good

Tom

[Irvtheswerv]

http://www.dvtani.gov.uk/uploads/compliance/VOSA_VehicleSafety_DangersofOverloading.pdf.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/workplacetransport/loadsafety/load-shifts-forward.htm

What's the maximum gross weight of the vehicle? If you exceed that then clearly it's not safe to drive.

What do the insurers say about this situation? If it invalidates the insurance then you commit an offence of driving without insurance (5 points) and your employer commits an offence of causing the vehicle to be used without insurance. Clearly common sense would dictate it's not a good idea to have bulky items loose in a car.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PcqeONcta70C&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=loose+tools+car+accident&source=bl&ots=kWhhT7Ryex&sig=Aj4Kek2PSFsuwDXE_yAnXeiDpAM&hl=en&ei=s5JzTPr8MNi4jAes-OyKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=loose%20tools%20car%20accident&f=false

Basically your employer is an idiot who is asking staff to risk their lives.

Edited 24 August, 2010 by Irvtheswerv

[Captain Sisko]

What do you work as gadgetman?

When I did field engineer work. Some people got cars but I had a Combo DTI.

In fact all my field engineer work I had a van.

Just need a Mohawk and gold chains.

On a more serious level I can see where you are coming from, but if your bosses are being unreasonable it might be worth speaking to the fleet manager, unions etc about it.

But don't mention H+S

You could mention security of sock etc but you could say the eats get dirty etc.... damage to doors....affect resale value. A small Transit connect, combo van is a lot better than an estate for constant carrying of goods and tools

[gadgetman]

Why not mention h&s?

[trundlenut]

Not sure why you think the insurance might not be right. The insurance covers all aspects of the firm (liability, buildings, cars etc) given we are a service company. The car is fully comp, as per the generic cover note copy we carry. Askmid confirms the car is insured.

VWD: The calculations are exactly the kind of ammo I'm after. Yup, some stuff we carry can be heavy. Almost all items are metal, and one small part the size of an orange must weight nearly 1kg.

Some news articles or H&S bumf on the subject might wake them up to realise my "will this new stock level fit in our boots?" wasnt being pedantic.

Another thing is the boot area only has one of those pull out covers. I assume technically we should have something like a dog guard?

Bit of a late reply but what I was talking about is carrying samples and stock, most normal policies specifically exclude the carrying of samples and other things and so if you are the policy is void. The insurance may be organised by someone who deals with the cars but have no idea about what is in them. I have had issues with admin people having no real idea of what my job actually entails - at once place the vehicle insurance specifically excluded towing anything which we only found out about after towing a bowser around for a couple of weeks.

[Yunalesca]

I am an engineer (I work for myself) and if I can't fit it safely in the car, it doesn't come with me! I get someone to take it to site or borrow a van!

The hubby and his colleagues are in the same position, but work for a company. The company did try to get them to carry unsafe loads and in the end the engineers put their foot down, claimed H&S and in the end the company gave way. Again, they either take one of the work's vans or it gets couriered to site.

Remember, whilst the company is responisble for providing the correct equipment, it is you as the driver who will suffer if there's an accident or get nicked if pulled by the old bill!

You just need to be firm with them, it may not be their fault that they don't know what your job is, but that's just tough.

[gadgetman]

Bit of a late reply but what I was talking about is carrying samples and stock, most normal policies specifically exclude the carrying of samples and other things and so if you are the policy is void. The insurance may be organised by someone who deals with the cars but have no idea about what is in them. I have had issues with admin people having no real idea of what my job actually entails - at once place the vehicle insurance specifically excluded towing anything which we only found out about after towing a bowser around for a couple of weeks.

As I said above, the insurance for most firms covers all their insurance needs and isnt a separate or vehicle only policy. I'd expect the insurer would be in hot water if they refused to payout having covered the rest of the company's activies.

Sounds like your own firm do things oddly if you arent covered for samples or stock. Our sales guys, and we engineers certainly are.