My Trackday Today (vRS PD170)

[mlapicki]

Hi All,

I did a trackday today at Goodwood. Had a video running, and put the results on YouTube

This is my 2nd trackday in the Octavia - I think the handling is very good, or at least certainly reliable, controllable and predicatable. My tyres, Sunto (on the car when I bought it), are the worst on the planet, and thankfully I've now worn them enough to justify buying proper tyres.

Mechanically, the car stood up to it really well, it was pretty warm today and there were no issues at all - except the smell of the brakes perhaps. Using a diesel is certainly a way of standing out amongst the sea of Ferrari's and Porsche. Yes, ok I was the slowest, but who had the best fuel economy?

Cheers.

[vRSy]

trackdays are awesome. I wouldnt have wanted to be the person who bought my vRS off of me. 50+ laps of the ring, 3 track day at brands, 1 at silverstone, 2 airfield days at waterbeach bks airfield and 3 at woodbridge airfield. a very predictable car to drive on track, with the potential to shock alot of more expensive machinery( fully modded stage 2+ TFSI that is lol)

At the ring i was refilling every 10 laps, my mate in his TDI vRS estate was doing more than double that to a tank but saying that a std tdi vRS Versus a fully modded stage 2 TFSI = massive speed difference.

if your into trackdays a few there a few things you really want to do before your looking at remapping etc. because seriously the vRS is lacking when really pushed on track.

the best mod you can do on the vRS by a long shot is to upgrade the anti roll bars. id say do front and rear personally, but just rear will sill be ok, as the diesel has the heavier front end. The ARB's give an absolutely huge improvement in cornering speed, allow you to get on the power earlier, and the biggest improvement you will notice is the quick direction changes.

Then uprate your brake fluid to a performance rated fluid like motul RBF600, and upgrade your pads to something like mintex m1144's. your times on track will drop massively, only then would i say you need to look into remapping and further mods.

oh and get some good tyres lol

ref tyres

the vredestein ultrac sessantas are very good, and petty predictable on the limit. also with an ok wear rate and good wet weather grip. Toyo T1rs are ****. they took about 400miles to scrub in, i over heated them at the ring( it was a 35degree day as well though), they were a bit iffy at the limit although ok in the wet.

eagle F1 assymetrics are also very good, on par with the vredesteins if not maybe slightly better.

id be keen to try the michelin pilot sport 3 next. from what i have read, streets ahead of the rest with a better wear rate

id also add a lower engine mount upgrade as well actually, i know the diesel vRS's that i have driven suffered more wheel hop to the TFSI. cheapish mod with a notabl improvment. especially in the wet

Edited 28 August, 2010 by janner_Sy

[mlapicki]

cheers - pads and tyres seem like a pretty easy win.

whats the rough costing on a rear ARB? It sounds like it would fix a lot of the problems I had today...

[vRSy]

cheers - pads and tyres seem like a pretty easy win.

whats the rough costing on a rear ARB? It sounds like it would fix a lot of the problems I had today...

Anywhere between £150 and £200.

i was running the eibach front and rears matched to the whiteline anti lift kit and coilovers. It was a very neutral car to drive with only minor understeer. to be honest i wanted it to be more pointy and loose at the rear to help get the nose into the corner. i prefer a more over steer bias to a car. much faster for track work. If i hadnt of sold it i would have probaly upgraded the rear eibach bar for the BSH 27mm rear.

now the problem with the diesel is it is heavier over the front axle and thus will understeer a bit more. id be tempted in your case to maybe purchase the adjustable whiteline rear ARB (about £150) and mate that to the whiteline anti lift kit(WALK). That way if the car oversteers to much, first of all you can adjust the rear bar to a softer setting. if its still to much, you could fit the whiteline adjustable front ARB.

I wouldnt even consider touching the springs/dampers till you have done that IMO.

there are two routes you culd take for the best all round street/track suspension setup, which is obviously always going to be a compromise somewhere. stiff springs/dampers with soft ARBs, or soft springs with a stiff ARBs. the latter will of course be alot better to drive on the road and much more forgiving.

id reccomend having your car set up by a professional chassis engineer such as wheels in motion or centergravity, they will adjust your rear camber and front and rear toe to make the car handle how you want it. this is often wrongly overlooked.

Edited 28 August, 2010 by janner_Sy

[vRSy]

sounds like it would fix a lot of the problems I had today...

id bet your tyres would have been 80% of any problems you had lol.

[mlapicki]

that's being kind to my driving skill - perhaps call it 50% tyres, 50% consistent driver error.

[vRSy]

that's being kind to my driving skill - perhaps call it 50% tyres, 50% consistent driver error.

The first thing i always do is get instruction at any airfield or trackday. im happy about how to control a car, its the ability to hit the braking points and turning points really well that i find the limiting factor. always best to have that inside knowledge from the experts, and it wil amaze you how much faster you will be than if you just went at it alone as a novice.

what is your budget or your modifying?

Edited 28 August, 2010 by janner_Sy

[vRSy]

If i was to buy a vRS again i would modify in this order. The car as standard has to much body roll, and the brakes are not good from high speeds, and are prone to fade, so need doing first big style.

-Adjustable rear Anti roll bar (whiteline/eibach/H&R/BSH) -£150

-Whiteline anti lift kit - £135

-Front pads (rears will be fine) Mintex M1144/ferrodo DS2500/hawk HP+/pagid RS4-2 – anywhere from £90-£140

-Motul RBF600 brake fluid £15-20/litre

Once that’s sorted, you wil get a huge improvement from a stage 1 remap. And I mean huge.

-Stage 1 remap (shark performance/revo/apr/jabbasport) £500 (don’t buy sh!te, not when it comes to your engine)

With a diesel car you have A LOT of torque low down, so will struggle with traction when accelerating out of a corner. The front camber is fixed on the vRS, but the TT has adjustable camber so you can fit the TT control arms to allow an increase in neg camber. This and a LSD will allow you to get the power on much earlier.

-Audi TT lower control arms/ball joints/poly bush-£350

-Limited slip differential (LSD)-£1200 fitted (really needed on these cars)

Then id consider a good spring damper combo or coilovers. If your not happy with height you could always just do the springs but that will reduce the effectivness of the std dampers.

Sy

Edited 28 August, 2010 by janner_Sy

[JohnMcL7]

I take it you hired the camera setup?

I chickened out of taking my Octavia onto the Nurburgring as it would have taken a long time to get it there and back plus I was concerned about wrecking it (hired a 200bhp Clio instead) although I might take it down to a local track to give it a shot as I'm curious to see how it would go. I found the Toledo with the 1.9 150 PD engine suffered a lot of understeer from its heavy front end but the Octavia seems to grip surprisingly well.

John

[mlapicki]

Yes, I hired the camera setup from a company that tours around track days - well worth the money just for the video, The data and software they give you is brilliant too. It's the kind of thing which is great to do just before a number of upgrades, then maybe I'll do it again after upgrades to see the difference...

[octavia5]

If i was to buy a vRS again i would modify in this order. The car as standard has to much body roll, and the brakes are not good from high speeds, and are prone to fade, so need doing first big style.

-Adjustable rear Anti roll bar (whiteline/eibach/H&R/BSH) -£150

Sy

Fitting a RARB is an easy DIY - see

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/152785-fitting-a-new-rear-anti-roll-bar-on-a5-chassis/

[JohnMcL7]

Yes, I hired the camera setup from a company that tours around track days - well worth the money just for the video, The data and software they give you is brilliant too. It's the kind of thing which is great to do just before a number of upgrades, then maybe I'll do it again after upgrades to see the difference...

It looks great even just as a memory of the track, it's really annoying you're not allowed cameras at the Ring. I'd like something similar as that system looked quite easy to fit and remove plus gave a decent amount of information along with a decent video itself.

John

[vRSy]

It looks great even just as a memory of the track, it's really annoying you're not allowed cameras at the Ring. I'd like something similar as that system looked quite easy to fit and remove plus gave a decent amount of information along with a decent video itself.

John

most guys pull over right after the cones and attach the cameras then. I've never tried to film myself, incase i felt then need to push it really hard trying to make good video.

[D@z]

I made a post about this the other day actually, but this thread seems relevant, could you not upgrade the rarb to something from an r32 golf/leon cupra/audi s3?

Just thinking of a budget option...

[weyland]

If i was to buy a vRS again i would modify in this order. The car as standard has to much body roll, and the brakes are not good from high speeds, and are prone to fade, so need doing first big style.

-Adjustable rear Anti roll bar (whiteline/eibach/H&R/BSH) -£150

-Whiteline anti lift kit - £135

-Front pads (rears will be fine) Mintex M1144/ferrodo DS2500/hawk HP+/pagid RS4-2 – anywhere from £90-£140

-Limited slip differential (LSD)-£1200 fitted (really needed on these cars)

Good advice I've downgraded to a TFSI VRS and i'm about to do my first track day in it (at a venue I have been to 6 times before). The above are my main concerns also as my previous car was track focused out of the box with mechanical LSD as standard. Gear change is also slightly slow and long on the VRS so that's also something i'm going to look into. Without taking it on track I can feel where this car falls short, not worth fitting an LSD though (esp. not at that price), better off buying a car with an LSD as standard.

It's unfortunately the thing that spoils most cars

Can you confirm what the anti-lift kit is and the benefits - not heard of this before

Edited 31 August, 2010 by weyland

[vRSy]

Good advice I've downgraded to a TFSI VRS and i'm about to do my first track day in it (at a venue I have been to 6 times before). The above are my main concerns also as my previous car was track focused out of the box with mechanical LSD as standard. Gear change is also slightly slow and long on the VRS so that's also something i'm going to look into. Without taking it on track I can feel where this car falls short, not worth fitting an LSD though (esp. not at that price), better off buying a car with an LSD as standard.

It's unfortunately the thing that spoils most cars

Can you confirm what the anti-lift kit is and the benefits - not heard of this before

downgraded from what?

in brief the anit lift kit it adds more castor and a stiffer bush, which then transfers to a quicker turn in, and a heavier feel in the steering. the castor also helps with increasing dynamic camber on turn in, so more grip and less understeer.

review here with more info!

the gear change is long. i fitted a forge short shifter which was a huge improvment. and the LSd is wthout doubt the best mod for the vRS/GTI/cupra. and for £1200 fitted its not to bad. if your going to trackdays id say its a must. though if you do the TT arms instead and fit some v.good tyres id say you would probably be ok without unless its wet

Edited 31 August, 2010 by janner_Sy

[gilesk]

That video is fantastic!

[weyland]

downgraded from what?

in brief the anit lift kit it adds more castor and a stiffer bush, which then transfers to a quicker turn in, and a heavier feel in the steering. the castor also helps with increasing dynamic camber on turn in, so more grip and less understeer.

review here with more info!

the gear change is long. i fitted a forge short shifter which was a huge improvment. and the LSd is wthout doubt the best mod for the vRS/GTI/cupra. and for £1200 fitted its not to bad. if your going to trackdays id say its a must. though if you do the TT arms instead and fit some v.good tyres id say you would probably be ok without unless its wet

Sounds like just what I need. I previously used to buy more hardcore driver focused cars, however went for the VRS as it is more family friendly and has a more practical boot. (JDM Civic Type R FD2 imported new from Japan. 235 bhp, weighed around 1100kg, LSD as standard & 9000 rpm limiter )

[vRSy]

Sounds like just what I need. I previously used to buy more hardcore driver focused cars, however went for the VRS as it is more family friendly and has a more practical boot. (JDM Civic Type R FD2 imported new from Japan. 235 bhp, weighed around 1100kg, LSD as standard & 9000 rpm limiter )

you need to get the LSD if your used to having one. its never the same else. the type Rs are awesome to drive, great fun but have nothing down low though. which is fine on track when the revs are up, but poo on the street.

how much did you have to spend that 35Hp?. for £2000 on the TFSI you can get an extra 83hp and 115Ibft or torque. i can never go to a non turbo car again now lol

[weyland]

Sorry but it isn't just about that extra 35bhp with driving machines, it's about the engineering and car setup. You also missed the key point - the weight. The power to weight on the FD2 will make it quicker than a stage 2 VRS; the VRS is over 300kg heavier - you need a LOT of extra power to counteract that (Stage 2 260bhp VRS 185bhp per tonne, FD2 235bhp 213bhp per tonne). To give you an example the FD2 laps suzuka 0.5 seconds slower than a Honda NSX, and it's quicker than most evos and imprezas through tight/complex/technical corners on track. It also came 6th in EVO car of the year ahead of the lambo in 2007 when it was launched in Japan. You'd need to send 30-40k to get a new car that handled better just to give you an idea. Anyway, that was the old car (which I will miss on my track day!), VRS is a happy compromise as it now has to be a family car first and foremost.

First track day will be in standard from so that I can suss the car out, then i'll upgrade the RARB first, possibly followed by braided brake lines, uprated brake fluid and pads and I might try another track day with that setup.

The anti-lisft kit sounds great, but I don't want to mod the car too much for the reasons above. I nearly bought a seperate track car instead but decided on the one car route rather than running two, For that reason I just want to do the minimal things that will make the most difference. Good to speak with smeone who has tracked the VRS and knows the car well.

[vRSy]

Sorry but it isn't just about that extra 35bhp with driving machines, it's about the engineering and car setup. You also missed the key point - the weight. The power to weight on the FD2 will make it quicker than a stage 2 VRS; the VRS is over 300kg heavier - you need a LOT of extra power to counteract that (Stage 2 260bhp VRS 185bhp per tonne, FD2 235bhp 213bhp per tonne). To give you an example the FD2 laps suzuka 0.5 seconds slower than a Honda NSX, and it's quicker than most evos and imprezas through tight/complex/technical corners on track. It also came 6th in EVO car of the year ahead of the lambo in 2007 when it was launched in Japan. You'd need to send 30-40k to get a new car that handled better just to give you an idea. Anyway, that was the old car (which I will miss on my track day!), VRS is a happy compromise as it now has to be a family car first and foremost.

its 280Hp at stage 2+ and that's 200Hp/ton so still less than the type R. but peak Hp is only half the story. especially when the mapped CTR peaks at 235hp, yet a stage 2+ TFSI is making 280hp from 5000rpm all the way until 7000rpm. It is the amount of area under the power curve that counts on the road and not peak figures.

Also torque is what makes the car accelerate and the vRS at stage 2+ has about 320Ibft (about 160Ibft extra in comparison to mapped type R). with a torque output of 235ibft/ton compared to the type R in the region of 145Ibft/ton (assuming a peak torque of 160Ibft on a mapped CTR),

so its not as straight cut as simple power to weight.

Theres a graph to illustrate the potential of the k03 TFSI, on dyno dynamics rollers which are well renowned for accuracy/or low readings as some might say.

believe me when i say that in comparison the type R even when fettled cannot keep up with a stage 2+ TFSI.

I would however i agree be alot more fun and in a very tight track road the type R would have the edge, but if your about handling why not just get a renault sport clio then?, the type R is easily better than a standrad vRS, but thats about it really. I used to love winding all the young kids up in their type Rs in my skoda 5 door family hatcback.

the vRS needs a bit of fettling to change it from just good to very good, The mk5 chassis is widely renowned as one of most accomplished chassis's to have in the hot hatches, and the modification scene is huge. so its so easy to make it really really competitive.

that list i posted up earlier even minus the LSd will make for a very very competent track car, that will only be slightly behind your old type R in the fun department. (nothing much you can do about the weight lol)

I sold up as i wanted something that could break 300Hp on he std turbo, and has AWD so it can be driven equally hard in the rain and dry .

If you are keen to track the car or are interested in modifying then i highly reccomend you try this this forum . probably 90% of the members are driving modified MK5 gti's, leons, audi S3's and vRS's. these cars all share identical engines and chassis so all the performance parts from brakes, suspension, ARBs, LSD's etc etc are all interchangable , thus such a wide modifying scene as a result.

Edited 1 September, 2010 by janner_Sy

[weyland]

Appreciate the post and info (and car banter). I'm also finding the VRS very linear compared to the FD2 (which incidentally is 235 as standard, not mapped!) Some would say this is good but I keep expecting the big power explotion when keeping the right foot planted - something that maybe a stage 1 will sort out

Very impressive power reading you had there, that thing must have shifted! As mentioned i'm only after subtle mods now, I had the money to spend on another car (or even to keep the FD2) but chose not to. This will get bashed around as a family car, will cover long distances and can be left anywhere (within reason) so I don't want to get over protective of it, or alter the subtle styling or ride. When the little people are older i'll buy a 3.0 TD and a 2 seater to back it up For now I can live without an LSD and a few other niceties. Incidentally JabbaSport are just up the road from me, no idea if they are any good but might discuss some of the above with them and see what they can do.

I'll look in to your comments and do some subtle mods and see how she goes. Sorry for taking this OT OP!

Edited 1 September, 2010 by weyland

[vRSy]

the 3 main tuners id let touch my car are revo, shark performance and jabbasport. so i wouldnt hesitate in letting them have a go. stage 1 power should see you looking at 240Hp/270Ibft, stage 2 you will hit 260hp/300Ibft.

I did stage 2 for a fair while with only an intake, and performance downpipe. this way with the std cat back, the noise was at a minimum, only slightly louder than stock, and the intake gives a flutter on gear changes and thats about it.

the good thing about jabba as well is they can custom map to what ever you want. so if you went for the uprated HPFP, downpipe, and keep the stock intake you would have very little increase in noise(my wife never even noticed until i got the cat back) and then you will have a very discreet and very quick car(270Hp+), a remapped vRS is the perfect sleeper, which i loved best, no one ever expects a skoda to annihalate them. its brilliant to see their faces. just dont try it against the S3, cupra or edition 30 GTI, as they tune upto 360hp and will literally drive off lol.

im thinking mazda 6 MPS next, tune to about 320hp, should catch people out as its such a rare car people dont know what it is.

reference the handling though. the ARBs, lower control arms and anti lift kit wont hamper the ride at all. also on a side note, ive tried the koni FSD/eibach springs combo on a few cars now, and ride comfort is better than stock, as well as much improved handling.

[weyland]

Hmmm, not so sure about the 6 MPS. Sure it's a good 2nd hand buy but not that great IMHO. A mate has one and it good, but performance is inconsistent due to ECU preselecting a driving program and all told the power is not that great being AWD, plus add in poor fuel economy and personally I would give it a miss. I certainly wouldn't put it up there with the greats - just average. Not really a step on from the VRS and potentially not as good a drive. All IMHO of course.

What kind of car are you looking for? powerful turbo saloon?

Incidentally there was an S3 on my last track day and that thing was quick! Tuned for sure but as you say no real way of telling until your foot goes down

Edited 1 September, 2010 by weyland

[vRSy]

Hmmm, not so sure about the 6 MPS. Sure it's a good 2nd hand buy but not that great IMHO. A mate has one and it good, but performance is inconsistent due to ECU preselecting a driving program and all told the power is not that great being AWD, plus add in poor fuel economy and personally I would give it a miss. I certainly wouldn't put it up there with the greats - just average. Not really a step on from the VRS and potentially not as good a drive. All IMHO of course.

What kind of car are you looking for? powerful turbo saloon?

Incidentally there was an S3 on my last track day and that thing was quick! Tuned for sure but as you say no real way of telling until your foot goes down

im after a powerful turbo saloon with AWD. bored of FWD now, had loads of high performance ones now, and wouldnttrust my wife in a modded RWD car.

i look at a car as a base for improvement when buying. The MPS has 260ps as standard, chuck 1500-2000 quid at it, and they make 320-350hp/360Ibft+ thats on the std turbo.

if i was to get an s3 it would have to be the k04 TFSI mk2. but they are still in excess of 13-17k, and still require modding to make them decent, so thats another £1500-2000 on top as well. for the same age mps, with the same power, much more std kit were looking at £7000-9000. so quite a good second hand buy. here is the thread i started about the MPS i mps test drove

ive driven a modified one now as well and it was pretty impressive actually, although the chassis tuning side is sparse as its new territory

i did try a few impreza's. and evos, and although good, they are a massive step down in build quality and the interiors look like they were made from tonker toys. the engines also arent that impressive when it comes to their power delivery IMO. i hate turbo lag on cars, its why i would never do a BT conversion.