RWD Skodas

[Czech Bra Size]

Tom said what I said - on a normal production car even if it's a fast RS turbo or Skoda RS you will not know what fade feels like unless you take it on a track and race it to death. You would smell them burning long before you would feel them fade or not bite the rotor at all. On a road going car it is hardly important at all to have drilled or groved - They are definitely for show.

Fast road pads are very noisy and they vibrate the hell out of your cars rotors the only reason you would put these pads in is if your race it regular. They will also wear out very quickly

Why are we talking about brakes? - I say always keep a spare anchor in the car on a long chain to throw out if all else fails. lol

[hawkeracing]

Czech Bra size.....Ive never heard so much utter rubbish in one post! Brake fade can occur relatively quickly on cheap pads and can occur anywhere you use your brakes alot. The power of the car has little to do with it......a Ferrari may get to 60 quicker but at 60 you still need to slow down from 60! I live in Cumbria not far from the fells and a fast jaunt out on twisty up and down roads round here can cause brake fade without any problem. You generally feel the fade long before you smell the heat unless you park up in between. As for fast road pads being noisy and vibrational....where on earth have you got that from? I have full race Ferrodo DS pads in my Skoda and they make no more noise or vibration than normal pads. Ive used EBC green and red stuff which are nice fast road pads, and again, the difference is zero. The only time you would get extra noise and vibration is if you were using extremely harsh endurance racing type pads.....but you wouldnt buy them for road use anyway.

[TeflonTom]

Why are we talking about brakes? - I say always keep a spare anchor in the car on a long chain to throw out if all else fails. lol

brakes are related to handling i suppose.. :yes:

i tend not to really use the brakes at all really, i use the gearbox/engine braking mainly.. on another subject i was thinking about replacing my throttle with a switch instead of a variable, seeing as it only ever gets used in 2 positions.. on or off, ie; fully open or closed

[Czech Bra Size]

Oh Sorry - we have all got a Ferarri - haven't we.

Solid state disc are fine and so are normal pads. This is a silly arguement! you ain't gone to the balls ache of putting drilled and groved discs on a crappy old Skoda estelle or rapid - if you have you got more money than sense!

I have never felt brake fade in any car I have ever owned and I have owned some seriously fast cars and driven then fast and braked very hard. I still maintain grooved and drilled are for show unless you have a Ferarri or a car as quick with racing pedigree.

What are the roads up north different to down here on South coast?

Edited 28 September, 2010 by Czech Bra Size

[daverapid]

a crappy old Skoda estelle or rapid

:p Less of the crappy!!

[hawkeracing]

Oh Sorry - we have all got a Ferarri - haven't we.

Solid state disc are fine and so are normal pads. This is a silly arguement! you ain't gone to the balls ache of putting drilled and groved discs on a crappy old Skoda estelle or rapid - if you have you got more money than sense!

I have never felt brake fade in any car I have ever owned and I have owned some seriously fast cars and driven then fast and braked very hard. I still maintain grooved and drilled are for show unless you have a Ferarri or a car as quick with racing pedigree.

What are the roads up north different to down here on South coast?

There wasnt much balls ache in fiitting grooved and drilled discs, they just bolt on and if youve never experienced brake fade then you havent been trying hard enough.

As I explained before, having a fast car has little to do with drilled and grooved discs being an improvement or necessary.....its about how much you use the brakes. My single seat race car didnt have grooved and drilled discs because I didnt do masses of braking in it and the car was very light and had big wings and super sticky tyres. I can absolutely guaruntee you my Skoda has been improved by the addition of the discs Ive bought because Ive tried it before and after. The pads are also fairly awesome. Put it this way, when a professional engineer who has been mapping and driving you car comments on how impressive the brakes are, its a fair sign that they are working well.

You keep your head stuck firmly in the sand, you'll be safer that way!

As for the difference in the roads, the answer is - a lot less crowded and a lot more hilly too.

Ive spent lots of money on my 'crappy old Estelle' and because of that it works well, goes well and attracts lots of attention at events and in general. It is the oldest one in the UK and has chrome bumpers, round headlights etc, but its still an Estelle at the end of the day.

Edited 28 September, 2010 by hawkeracing

[TeflonTom]

'crappy old Estelle'

we've got one of them too, the electrics are shot, there's no engine, the interior is missing.... but inside lays a beating heart of eastern-european gold it will live again eventually

[KenONeill]

I have never felt brake fade in any car I have ever owned and I have owned some seriously fast cars and driven then fast and braked very hard. I still maintain grooved and drilled are for show unless you have a Ferarri or a car as quick with racing pedigree.

What are the roads up north different to down here on South coast?

As you know, I live in Scotland; You may not have known that I used to work in Kent. IME, yes the roads up here are different to South of the Severn-Wash line, being quieter, hillier, and tending to have more places where you get a straight running into a bend that you can't take over about 30mph. Add to that that most Police forces up here concentrate speed enforcement measures on towns and dual cabbageways...

[The Baron]

My Rapid 136 has been lowered a little, has adjustable dampers and Yoko sprint tyres in 185 section.

It'll outcorner almost anything provided you keep it smooth. While it's at it, it gives lovely steering feel, decent brakes (totally standard but well maintained) and is a wonderfully involving car to drive. My daughter drives it every day but soetimes I manage to nick it back off her and drive it purely for fun, leaving my Cooper S in the garage.

RWD Skodas are the most underrated car in the universe, which is great. It means they are equally undervalued.

[Kieranzxt]

This is a funny thread to read.

In my experience, the rerwd cars handle very well as long as you drive themn like a rerwd car, ie brake in a straight line before the corner, and then power through the corner plating its arse on the deck.

Anyone not used to driving one is going to be surprised, lift off oversteer can be very entertaining!

Like The Baron states, a bit of a mod on the suspension and tyres does make it even better!!

[lewist123]

I totally agree with everything Hawkracing has said and disgree with almost everything Cech bra size has said (sorry!).

I have driven a range of different cars over the years from an MGB GT with a heavily tuned Oseli engine to my current new Honda civic sport and all of these cars have exerienced brake fade when pushing on.

The MG could literally cook its brakes in minutes of spirited driving. If you carried on pushing it you would lose a lot of brake force. The civic isn't as bad but I have pulled up after a B road blast and had smoking litterally billowing out of the front wheel arches.

Drilled and/or grooved brakes help dissipate more heat, and help clean the pads. Increasing the overall size of the disks and pads (calipers) also can have a huge affect on the braking. I owned a 1.2 renault clio dynamic (it was fairly). It had a 'sport' pack that consisted of a few suspention tweeks, but one of the big differences was it had the front disks off a laguna (cost twice as bloody much as the standard 1.2 clio disks). The brakes on that car were unbelievable compared to a standard clio.

As for handling, I have only driven my estelle a handful of times over the past 3 years (it is a long term project car) but I found the handling fine. Steering was good, brakes ok, general poise and composure was also good. I have lowered it quite a lot which has made it a bit fidgity at the front, but I think the tracking needs looking at.

Almost any car can have it's handling transformed with the correct combo of wheels, tyres, springs, shocks and geometry tweeks.

[FellyMagic]

I totally agree with everything Hawkracing has said and disgree with almost everything Cech bra size has said (sorry!).

I have driven a range of different cars over the years from an MGB GT with a heavily tuned Oseli engine to my current new Honda civic sport and all of these cars have exerienced brake fade when pushing on.

The MG could literally cook its brakes in minutes of spirited driving. If you carried on pushing it you would lose a lot of brake force. The civic isn't as bad but I have pulled up after a B road blast and had smoking litterally billowing out of the front wheel arches.

Drilled and/or grooved brakes help dissipate more heat, and help clean the pads. Increasing the overall size of the disks and pads (calipers) also can have a huge affect on the braking. I owned a 1.2 renault clio dynamic (it was fairly). It had a 'sport' pack that consisted of a few suspention tweeks, but one of the big differences was it had the front disks off a laguna (cost twice as bloody much as the standard 1.2 clio disks). The brakes on that car were unbelievable compared to a standard clio.

As for handling, I have only driven my estelle a handful of times over the past 3 years (it is a long term project car) but I found the handling fine. Steering was good, brakes ok, general poise and composure was also good. I have lowered it quite a lot which has made it a bit fidgity at the front, but I think the tracking needs looking at.

Almost any car can have it's handling transformed with the correct combo of wheels, tyres, springs, shocks and geometry tweeks.

I've had the worst kind of brake fade...in an 11 ton double deck bus full of punters. Pedal to the floor approaching a red light at a pedestrian crossing. Bloody Leylands!

I have driven a fair few rear engined Skodas whilst working for DMK. most had awful handbrakes, but the RiC I pottered about in was a bit lively on the arse in the wet, and I loved it. We had a blue Estelle at the dealer which Dougal Keith was occasionally seen behind the wheel of.. Usually driven as if the wheels were on fire...

Yes if I had the cash and I could find a decent one, I would have a Rapid that would be tastefully modded..

[therealskodaman]

I've had the worst kind of brake fade...in an 11 ton double deck bus full of punters. Pedal to the floor approaching a red light at a pedestrian crossing. Bloody Leylands!

I have driven a fair few rear engined Skodas whilst working for DMK. most had awful handbrakes, but the RiC I pottered about in was a bit lively on the arse in the wet, and I loved it. We had a blue Estelle at the dealer which Dougal Keith was occasionally seen behind the wheel of.. Usually driven as if the wheels were on fire...

Yes if I had the cash and I could find a decent one, I would have a Rapid that would be tastefully modded..

"Can rerwd skodas be made to handle well?" Having the engine hung out over the rear axle makes about as much sense as having it hung out ahead of the front axle, which most of your modern hot hatches have got, except the rerwd layout gives better grip for accelerating.

The 'old' swing axle layout was hugely strong, but made the handling a bit iffy. If you want to get technical, that layout causes a very high rear roll centre which causes a tendency towards oversteer, added to the tendency towards oversteer caused by the weight distribution. It also causes jacking of the rear susp[ension under cornering, ie the outside wheel wants to tuck under during hard cornering. Don't forget that it was one of the most successful 1300 cc rally cars ever.

The newer semi trailing / trailing arm layout sorted that out, and made for a pretty decent handling car, sometimes a bit understeery due to light front end, and could be provoked into oversteer which was fun. Best thing you could do for the handling was shift anything that could be shifted to the front of the car. eg battery.

As for brakes, Ive no idea what the very old ones had, but my 130 rally car had alloy four piston calipers at the front and vented discs,

As for the debate over drilled, grooved or solid discs...... Drilled and grooved discs for road cars are designed to sell pads, thats it.

The sharp edge of the hole / groove serves to shave a little bit of pad off each time you brake. Useful for de-glazing the pad if it is getting regularly very very hot, ie circuit racing but not much use for most road cars and most road drivers.

As for hving more pad area in contact with the disc, the amount of braking force generated is independant of the pad area, small pads will stop you as fast as big ones. BUT large pads are capable of transmitting the heat away from the pad surface quicker so they heat up less and slower. Drilled or grooved discs won't affect that. Gas liquifying between the pad and the disc - hmmmmm sounds like something dreamed up by a drilled and grooved disc salesman to me, Ive certainly never read of it in any race engineering text.

Cheers

[KenONeill]

As for hving more pad area in contact with the disc, the amount of braking force generated is independant of the pad area, small pads will stop you as fast as big ones. BUT large pads are capable of transmitting the heat away from the pad surface quicker so they heat up less and slower. Drilled or grooved discs won't affect that. Gas liquifying between the pad and the disc - hmmmmm sounds like something dreamed up by a drilled and grooved disc salesman to me, Ive certainly never read of it in any race engineering text.

Cheers

Ok, I agree with most of what you said, but are you seriously suggesting that:-

1) The resins used to bind brake pads somehow "go away" without becoming gases or liquids?

2) Porsche Competition used drilled and/or grooved discs back in the 1960s in order to sell brake pads to customers (remember that their road cars of the period had big drums o solid discs)?

3) Just because no-one has written about a phenomonon means that it doesn't happen? I'd think it's more likely that it means that no-one has been able to come up with a means of studying it entirely scientifically.

[cheezemonkhai]

Totally impartial, but surely everyone can agree with the point made, which is that a set of car with everything else exactly the same, then the ones with the engines behind the front axle or in front of the rear axle will handle better than those with the engines in front of the front axle or behind the rear axle.

For an FWD example, look at the improvements that happen when Audi moved the engine so that it's less ahead of the front axle.

[KenONeill]

Totally impartial, but surely everyone can agree with the point made, which is that a set of car with everything else exactly the same, then the ones with the engines behind the front axle or in front of the rear axle will handle better than those with the engines in front of the front axle or behind the rear axle.

Nobody responsible and/or competent would ever do that. They'd change the springs, dampers, brake balance and possibly ARBs to tune the car to the new weight distribution, even if they didn't change the suspension geometry directly.

Edited 10 February, 2011 by KenONeill

[cheezemonkhai]

Ok but surely the physics of it means that if the mass is in the centre it will be easier to change direction without the front/rear wanting to carry on in it's own direction.

[KenONeill]

Nope; a front-heavy Corvette CF5 changes direction better than 50/50 Porsche 944 Turbo. Source SCCA.

[juan27]

From memory the very last RWD Skodas got a reasonable press. In fact didn't a Skoda win a "Car" Magazine COTY prize one year in the 80s?

Rear engined cars can be made to handle, but it always seems to take many years of development(Porsche 911).

My Dad worked for a shock absorber manufacturer in the early 60s and he thought the VW Beetle verged on dangerous at the time but my mate had a late one in the 80s which seemed well sorted.

The Hillman Imp handled pretty well by the time they stopped making it (if you could stop it overheating long enough to drive it) but had a poor rep in the early days.

As early FWD cars generally won praise for their handling from introduction (FIAT 128, Alfasud, Mini etc) you'd have to say on balance that FWD cars have an advantage.

But of course in the 70s FWD cars were considered a better bet than front engined RWD cars at least in bread and butter models.

These days I can't see a BMW 3 series (RWD) losing a road test against a Audi A4 (FWD) any time soon.

Oh and the rear engined Smart handles pretty awfully by all accounts.

Edited 11 February, 2011 by juan27

[skodabluecat]

From memory the very last RWD Skodas got a reasonable press. In fact didn't a Skoda win a "Car" Magazine COTY prize one year in the 80s?

Rear engined cars can be made to handle, but it always seems to take many years of development(Porsche 911).

My Dad worked for a shock absorber manufacturer in the early 60s and he thought the VW Beetle verged on dangerous at the time but my mate had a late one in the 80s which seemed well sorted.

The Hillman Imp handled pretty well by the time they stopped making it (if you could stop it overheating long enough to drive it) but had a poor rep in the early days.

As early FWD cars generally won praise for their handling from introduction (FIAT 128, Alfasud, Mini etc) you'd have to say on balance that FWD cars have an advantage.

But of course in the 70s FWD cars were considered a better bet than front engined RWD cars at least in bread and butter models.

These days I can't see a BMW 3 series (RWD) losing a road test against a Audi A4 (FWD) any time soon.

Oh and the rear engined Smart handles pretty awfully by all accounts.

[skodabluecat]

I had a highly tuned skoda engine in the back of my 1966 skoda mb up until about a year ago and with a few tweaks here and there it was great to drive.I have a 1800 rover k series engine mid mounted in the car now and it is very neutral and performs even better.

It was easy before to encourage the rear of the car to slide its arse out but now it is far more difficult to do this..Hoping the 200 hp turbo I have planned for it increases the fun..

Edited 11 February, 2011 by skodabluecat

[Czech Bra Size]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W5m7GtQQdo&feature=related

You can make a horrible handling car fun to drive if you know it's characteristics

Edited 20 February, 2011 by Czech Bra Size

[Czech Bra Size]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3H88cMVo7I&feature=related

Ooops! that was to fast the back end was about to overtake the front and he corrected it then crashed it - but he was going bloomin fast

What a ponker - you got to steer as well

Edited 20 February, 2011 by Czech Bra Size

[Czech Bra Size]

This is a well set up Skoda - but I bet he is fighting the physics but then these are wrx teams I'm sure

[Czech Bra Size]

This is a really nice ride