Who's for a Pay Rise............

[ap0gee1978]

@ daiking: Couldn't have put it better myself!

I really don't know why lol doesn't see how putting in lots of effort to avoid 40% tax is any different to what the Philip Greens of this world do. And as for the cry of 'what I do is legal!', isn't that the MPs defence for their expenses? And then there's the 'I get paid the going rate' thing - again, isn't the 'market rate' the reason top bankers and footballers get paid what they do? Whether it's 1200 quid a week or 120000 quid a week, the principle's the same and the lady doth protest too much, methinks...

Sure, I also get certain perks from work deducted direct from my salary so that I can get best value for money, but I certainly don't do it out of spite! I'm not happy about the prospect of loss of CHB in particular, but the fact is that I'm grateful for what I get paid and a certain sense of noblesse oblige means that I'll put up with it as well as the extra 10% the taxman takes on my wages over the higher-rate threshold. Being in the business of tax avoidance, I'm sure lol will remember to claim the extra 20% tax relief on his pension contributions ('cos his pension fund manager won't), but in all honesty at the ca. 30 quid an hour he's on, he could quite easily end up nominally out-of-pocket if he spends more than an hour or so a week shifting his funds hither and thither like old Ebeneezer!

Me? I'd rather enjoy the time with my family and take the hit knowing that it's the downside of getting paid what I do...

[seboni121]

pay rises, we will not see pay rises for a while I think we'll be lucky to keep our jobs,why the hell do we stay in this rotten country we are going to the dog's,no the bloody dog's are better off than us!!!!

[ap0gee1978]

You need to be in tax dodging, like our dear old lol - one-off 100% payrise, then 6% per annum apparently...

[lol-lol]

You need to be in tax dodging, like our dear old lol - one-off 100% payrise, then 6% per annum apparently...

==============================================================================================

Tax avoidance is legal and we are set a fine example by our current Lords and Masters, evasion is illegal.

It was only a 50% pay rise and half of that I am losing in tax, if not careful, to support government subsidising of banks/bankers

.

Workers should expect inflation level pay rises or shares like bankers are now getting, only fair.

Edited 3 February, 2011 by lol

[ap0gee1978]

Workers should expect inflation level pay rises or shares like bankers are now getting, only fair.

So where does your 'give me 6% or I take my ball home' attitude come from?

statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=19

FWIW, 50% rise or 100% rise, you're still only paid 3 or 4 quid an hour more than me but you're clearly far more desperate to get more and keep more than I am! For the sake of your sanity, I just hope the standard rate of tax doesn't rise in the next 15 years (about right?) so you don't regret all your efforts dodging the tax rather than, say, making overpayments on your mortgage...

[Republic]

Tbh I'm not quite sure what to think of this thread. I regularly have disagreements with my work on them not letting me work 7 days a week (2 being at time and a half) or giving me enough overtime because it blows their budget but I want to earn the money. The most money I've ever managed to bring home is about £1900 in a month which I was dam proud of. You guys clearly are much older, wiser and more qualified than me. Shame that my willingness to work all the hours I can get, all of the time doesn't have the same hourly rate. An example for instance is that I'm on holiday for a week at the end of February and would snap at the chance for some extra paid work because I want nice things, so I've got to work hard. Difference is between a few of us is that we have to put much more time in.

[Llanigraham]

Republic,

Do you live to work, or work to live?

The former can lead to an early grave!

[lol-lol]

So where does your 'give me 6% or I take my ball home' attitude come from?

statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=19

FWIW, 50% rise or 100% rise, you're still only paid 3 or 4 quid an hour more than me but you're clearly far more desperate to get more and keep more than I am! For the sake of your sanity, I just hope the standard rate of tax doesn't rise in the next 15 years (about right?) so you don't regret all your efforts dodging the tax rather than, say, making overpayments on your mortgage...

Actually on working it through, and assuming that pay is taxed at an average of say 25% then I guess it is right that one will need a pay rise of 7.5% to keep with inflation, does that sound right?

Conservatives believe in a market economy, I believe in biulding a better society for all but as we now live under a Condem alliance then one should do in Rome as the Romans.

I made about £15K over payments on the Nationwide mortgage but since it is a Life Time Tracker paying 0.18% above Base, floored at 2% then it is simply not worth paying it off at the moment as it is better to keep cash elsewhere such as in the Lloyds cheque account which I think pays 4% gross, more bank foolishness lending at less than borrowing rate, some banks lent at below Base rate, do dumb is that? Will probably recommence paying off the mortgage if/when rates rise substantially later this year or next.

With the Government narrowing the 20% band from both ends I am expect the number of standard rate taxpayers will drop significantly further adding to the Condem unpopularity.

Edited 4 February, 2011 by lol

[lol-lol]

Tbh I'm not quite sure what to think of this thread. I regularly have disagreements with my work on them not letting me work 7 days a week (2 being at time and a half) or giving me enough overtime because it blows their budget but I want to earn the money. The most money I've ever managed to bring home is about £1900 in a month which I was dam proud of. You guys clearly are much older, wiser and more qualified than me. Shame that my willingness to work all the hours I can get, all of the time doesn't have the same hourly rate. An example for instance is that I'm on holiday for a week at the end of February and would snap at the chance for some extra paid work because I want nice things, so I've got to work hard. Difference is between a few of us is that we have to put much more time in.

I know where you are coming from. Some of my jobs, Merchant Navy Officer for instance, we would work 30 days non stop, 4 hours on 8 hours off.

I hope one day we are all paid the same rate for whatever job we do or abolish money altogether, it is the root of much evil of today.

I am a strong believer in Union representation and use to be a Union rep when woring for Government, mainly in making sure people had the right IT equipment but, in general, coporate entities will walk all over workers without a union. In successful countries like Germany and Japan Unions are encouraged to aid propblem solving. Our problem is we have not had a proper Civil War, ours was Royalists versus Cromwell's lunacy. Good luck to you comrade, work-life balance and power in numbers.

Edited 4 February, 2011 by lol

[ap0gee1978]

Tbh I'm not quite sure what to think of this thread. I regularly have disagreements with my work on them not letting me work 7 days a week (2 being at time and a half) or giving me enough overtime because it blows their budget but I want to earn the money...

I guess the efforts to demonstrate lol's unreasonableness have already blown this thread off course, so there's no harm in commending you for your self-motivation and enthusiasm - clearly that's another area where you would appear to be in a minority!

Overtime's a funny thing, though, because as well as budget issues there's also WTD and duty-of-care (and even level of demand) for bosses to consider, so even if you HAVE opted-out of WTD, it may be that there are other obstacles like lone working, First Aid cover, site security or production quotas that prevent your overtime requests being met. I can't say how it is at your works, but overtime's there if you want it at my place, but only within WTD - no-one's either put in an opt-out or had one accepted AFAIK...

[ap0gee1978]

In successful countries like Germany and Japan Unions are encouraged to aid propblem solving. Our problem is we have not had a proper Civil War, ours was Royalists versus Cromwell's lunacy. Good luck to you comrade, work-life balance and power in numbers.

So you're a warmonger now?! Isn't that the domain of the military-industrial capitalist pig?

FWIW, the civil wars on Japan and Germany (if you can call the Austro-Prussian War a civil war) WERE both royalist vs. republican after a fashion, so I don't think that has anything to do with anything! Japan of course has very very different working practices, which TBH I don't think are consistent with lol's socialist world vision, and as for Germany's Gastarbeiten... Well, there's no way THAT policy fits in with egalitarianism!

[ap0gee1978]

Actually on working it through, and assuming that pay is taxed at an average of say 25% then I guess it is right that one will need a pay rise of 7.5% to keep with inflation, does that sound right?

Get crossed over between replies here, but I don't think anyone can reasonably expect payrises to include changes in taxation! If nothing else, it adds momentum to inflation!

The fact is that your beloved Labour borrowed more than it could afford, and now all but the very poorest people need to surrender a greater proportion of their income to the treasury to try and sort it out. And do I need to re-state that every individual such as yourself who takes steps to avoid doing so is increasing the burden on everyone else?

However badly you may think the treasury is spending tax revenues, at least I can go to bed in the almost-certain knowledge that more of my income has gone towards helping others less fortunate than myself than yours. Who's the socialist now?!

[Stuart_J]

Mmmm

Interesting read

Personally Ive seen my income plumet in the last few months as work is getting harder to find in Construction again. Im at the front end so if we arent drawing anything soon there will be less to go to site, lets hope its not the early signs of the double dip recession.

I think anyone who has a job be grateful as things may well get a lot worse, if you want a pay rise change jobs although if you research the market you may find people are now hiring for less than you are earning.

The truth is UK PLC is close to broke, the gravy train is over & nobody deserves a pay rise hard as it is to swallow. If you want to earn more its down to you. I have a couple of clients running Steel Fabrication shops, about 50% of the workforce are Eastern European, one is pationate about employing brits but nobody wants to do whats a dirty smelly job & of those that do many just want to arrive & do the bare minimum to get paid, The Poles work hard & also sad as it is are far better skilled than many UK people, Its another sad thing that with the lack of apprentiships combined with the easy qualifications the Government are now dishing out the skill base of the UK is also in decline

Not trying to be too contreversial but Im really glad local government is finally having to get its house in order & actually adress getting efficent rather than playing lip service to it. I did a lot of projects under Labours School expansion & various other local authority spends & the attitude of the council, the totally laid back attitude of employees was a joke & as for what they spent the money on. Unbelievable, I put 15 tonnes of steel in to support a Green wall at a school entrance, On a bus shelter in salisbury for the park & ride the bill for the steel was £51000, not a lot of steel, just a ridiculous twisted eliptical shape. The average no of passengers on the bus I believe is around 5. But we didnt need to worry as they got an EU grant ( PAID FOR BY MY TAXES FFS )

With the way the private sector has been hit over the last few years, in many cases earnings falling & our pensions being raided by Labour. I think Government employees striking having had no cut in salaries & huge pensions will get little sympathy from the general public. They need to get efficent & justfy why they serve us !!!

[ap0gee1978]

Well that was a breath of fresh air!

[skomaz]

I am a strong believer in Union representation and use to be a Union rep when woring for Government...

And in that one statement I think we have finally found an explanation for some of your comments...

[skomaz]

Mmmm

Interesting read

Personally Ive seen my income plumet in the last few months as work is getting harder to find in Construction again. Im at the front end so if we arent drawing anything soon there will be less to go to site, lets hope its not the early signs of the double dip recession.

I think anyone who has a job be grateful as things may well get a lot worse, if you want a pay rise change jobs although if you research the market you may find people are now hiring for less than you are earning.

The truth is UK PLC is close to broke, the gravy train is over & nobody deserves a pay rise hard as it is to swallow. If you want to earn more its down to you. I have a couple of clients running Steel Fabrication shops, about 50% of the workforce are Eastern European, one is pationate about employing brits but nobody wants to do whats a dirty smelly job & of those that do many just want to arrive & do the bare minimum to get paid, The Poles work hard & also sad as it is are far better skilled than many UK people, Its another sad thing that with the lack of apprentiships combined with the easy qualifications the Government are now dishing out the skill base of the UK is also in decline

Not trying to be too contreversial but Im really glad local government is finally having to get its house in order & actually adress getting efficent rather than playing lip service to it. I did a lot of projects under Labours School expansion & various other local authority spends & the attitude of the council, the totally laid back attitude of employees was a joke & as for what they spent the money on. Unbelievable, I put 15 tonnes of steel in to support a Green wall at a school entrance, On a bus shelter in salisbury for the park & ride the bill for the steel was £51000, not a lot of steel, just a ridiculous twisted eliptical shape. The average no of passengers on the bus I believe is around 5. But we didnt need to worry as they got an EU grant ( PAID FOR BY MY TAXES FFS )

With the way the private sector has been hit over the last few years, in many cases earnings falling & our pensions being raided by Labour. I think Government employees striking having had no cut in salaries & huge pensions will get little sympathy from the general public. They need to get efficent & justfy why they serve us !!!

I'm exactly with you there Stuart!

Being in construction as well for a major engineering consultancy I've had very similar experiences both projects and staff from other sectors. I've also been under the threat of redundancy and haven't seen a payrise in a number of years.

Unfortunately this means that I have little sympathy with those within the Public Sector who bleat on like lol does!

Sorry lol but you do yourself no favours with some of your comments when you clearly have a very biased view of life based on your ideaology and no actual grasp of reality for a large proportion of the population.

[robmawer]

Do you live to work, or work to live?

The former can lead to an early grave!

And the latter can lead to 50 years of misery and depression, punctuated by the occassional holiday.

If you want to earn more its down to you.

This.

[jlwah]

Tax avoidance is legal and we are set a fine example by our current Lords and Masters, evasion is illegal.

I think you'll find that that is exactly the line Sir Phillip Green uses - if not HMRC is free to prosecute him, which I notice they've not done.

With the Government narrowing the 20% band from both ends I am expect the number of standard rate taxpayers will drop significantly further adding to the Condem unpopularity.

Not sure what you mean by "narrowing the 20 % band from both ends". If you mean that those at the bottom are taken out of the 20% band altogether, then I'm not sure why they would feel hard done by as far as the coalition is concerned, rather the opposite might be the case.

Your desire to see the coalition fail is typical of left leaning supporters feeling hard done by, who during Bliar/Brown years forgot about the basic principles of being in office - they started believing their own rhetoric and felt they had a "right" to be in office.

The Tories had to learn that lesson after 1997 and Labour have got a long, long journey back to office as they show no signs of having learned any lessons from the last election. Indeed, the last thing R'Ed / the Labour Party needs right now is an election, after all:

1. A number of significant private doners to the Labour party have stopped making donations, leaving the party with inadequate funds to fight a compaign.

2. The Labour party have a leader they didn't want and don't like. A situation made worse by the fact that they have no mechanism to get rid of an unpopular or unsuccesful leader who is not liked by the electorate.

3. Their currect leader was put in place by the unions who are exercising their perceived right to influence policy, thereby driving labour policies to the left.

4. In their newly appointed shadow chancellor they have a man who the electorate knows was influencial in the financial policies that got the country into the mess it's in and don't like him.

5. Labour knows that if they were returned to power in the next couple of years, they would be the ones having to make the cuts for which there are no alternatives.

6. They have not come up with any alternative plan and have fallen back on the age old opposition tactic, when you have no ideas of your own, of opposing everything. It makes them look opportunistic in the face of tough economic decision making and the electorate see that for what it is.

7. The Unions aren't squealing enough. That means the cuts aren't big enough for the Unions to mount a serious campaign that would gather public support. Most of the public know the cuts have to be made to a public sector that got bloated under Labour, with declining productivity and the creation of lots on "non jobs" and accept it.

8. A lot the local council cutbacks are politcally motivated, which is clear for the electorate to see. When senior council officials appear to be imune to the cutbacks the public have a right to question why they're targetting only certain areas for a decline in spending, whilst continuing with their own lavish rewards. That doesn't look good for a Labour party that may well have won significant council seats next May.

Only reasons R'Ed / Labour might want an early election are:

1. The LibDems know that their only hope is to keep the coalition going the full term, else risk suffering a loss of support that may be terminal for them as a party.

2. The Conservatives know that by getting all the major cuts out of the way within three/four years, they can announce significant tax reductions in the budget prior to the next election (quite possibly including the rise to £10K tax free allowance and the abolition of the (ineffective) 50% tax rate, add in budget increases for education and the NHS, a significant rise in the child allowance, reductions in Corporation tax and a freeze in fuel duty and Labours response will as vacuous as any party knowing they're heading for significant period in the politcal wilderness!)

3. The likelihood is that the tough economic "medicine" will have worked, showing up that Labour were wrong, and the economy will be growing, unemployment rates declining and the "feel good" factor will have returned. Labour will stand no chance if that is the case as the electorate will not want to put the recovery at risk.

Isn't politics great!

[Stuart_J]

And all of the above, you are spot on

[Republic]

Republic,

Do you live to work, or work to live?

The former can lead to an early grave!

Live to work. My Dad once said to me, "if you want nice things you've got to work hard". So I do. When I want for nothing, I'll slow down .

I know where you are coming from. Some of my jobs, Merchant Navy Officer for instance, we would work 30 days non stop, 4 hours on 8 hours off.

I hope one day we are all paid the same rate for whatever job we do or abolish money altogether, it is the root of much evil of today.

I am a strong believer in Union representation and use to be a Union rep when woring for Government, mainly in making sure people had the right IT equipment but, in general, coporate entities will walk all over workers without a union. In successful countries like Germany and Japan Unions are encouraged to aid propblem solving. Our problem is we have not had a proper Civil War, ours was Royalists versus Cromwell's lunacy. Good luck to you comrade, work-life balance and power in numbers.

4 hours on 8 hours off? That's nothing! It's not unheard of for me to leave my house at 7am and be home at 10:20pm due to work, then I'll go and do it all again the next day and they day after that... I just keep going while it's needed. Yes, within that time I have an hour and a half break but it's a long day and the hour of it is UNPAID.

Edit: And those shifts mentioned above, on a normal day will bring me about £100 before deductions.

I guess the efforts to demonstrate lol's unreasonableness have already blown this thread off course, so there's no harm in commending you for your self-motivation and enthusiasm - clearly that's another area where you would appear to be in a minority!

Overtime's a funny thing, though, because as well as budget issues there's also WTD and duty-of-care (and even level of demand) for bosses to consider, so even if you HAVE opted-out of WTD, it may be that there are other obstacles like lone working, First Aid cover, site security or production quotas that prevent your overtime requests being met. I can't say how it is at your works, but overtime's there if you want it at my place, but only within WTD - no-one's either put in an opt-out or had one accepted AFAIK...

Thanks Apogee. I'm quite proud of my work ethic tbh, as I'm going out earning money, making my life and everyone elses better by paying tax. So when I get a customer who is on the doll, can't be arsed to work come in my shop and start betting... I can get a bit hostile. I don't do all the work I do to pay for some random bone idle no lifer to have a life of luxury. As for overtime, the largest amount tends to be 6 hours in the mornings without another member of staff, but you tend to be have customers then. I'm not sure what WTD is, but as for duty of care I take the approach and have told them from day 1 that if I need a break I'll tell them. I've asked them on a few occasions for a later shift so I can get a bit of rest and they've been completely fine with it. Sadly more often that not, I'm asking them for more shifts which just aren't always there. Doesn't help that they have overstaffed most of the shops in my area, I'd love the know the logic of what's going on but the grapevine isn't very productive on this. All I know is that it makes my life even harder because there are people struggling to get their contracted hours in, and some who are not following the rules as they are working 4 (instead of 5) days from 7. Which means, if someone was to go sick, they would be called upon first as they are not meeting their contract and would be demanded to attend (in theory). My boss isn't going to pay me time and a half when he can get someone to do it cheaper. Thing that annoys me more, is that these people doing 4 from 7 don't often get called in and I'm the one who then tends to get the stick for doing a 6th day! If anyone has any suggestions for a new job for me, please go ahead! I'll move to the right job as long as I'll be better off than I am now. Eg say I get £500 spare cash a month now, it wouldn't make much sense to move for a pay rise if I then had £400 a month spare cash. In some ways a salary would be nice as my pay slip has been anything from £670 (I was on emergency tax from June 2009 - April 2010, help claiming this back please?) to £1940. You can't get stuck into anything with that sort of variation, so anything I want I have to save up for. My target this year is to save £5,000 hopefully by the end of October. The way my hours are going, I think I'm going to struggle to get half that.

And the latter can lead to 50 years of misery and depression, punctuated by the occassional holiday.

Depends on your mind set and what motivates you imo.

Also, I'd be intrigued to know how old you guys think I am.

Edited 4 February, 2011 by Republic

[robmawer]

Depends on your mind set and what motivates you imo.

Totally - different strokes for different folks and all that. I'm just providing a counter-argument for the case of "live to work".

Also, I'd be intrigued to know how old you guys think I am.

20. Says so on your profile.

[ap0gee1978]

I'm not sure what WTD is...

Working Time Directive. Off the top of my head for non-mobile workers (i.e. not professional drivers or WHY) over 18, it's: not more than 48 hours per week averaged over 17 weeks; not more than 13 hours (excluding breaks) in every day, and; not less than 24 unbroken hours away from work every week. You can opt out of this by written agreement with your employer.

[Republic]

Totally - different strokes for different folks and all that. I'm just providing a counter-argument for the case of "live to work".

20. Says so on your profile.

You cheated Rob... lol.

Working Time Directive. Off the top of my head for non-mobile workers (i.e. not professional drivers or WHY) over 18, it's: not more than 48 hours per week averaged over 17 weeks; not more than 13 hours (excluding breaks) in every day, and; not less than 24 unbroken hours away from work every week. You can opt out of this by written agreement with your employer.

Ah right, got a feeling I signed something to opt out of that. Thanks.

[Paul007]

Being in construction as well for a major engineering consultancy I've had very similar experiences both projects and staff from other sectors. I've also been under the threat of redundancy and haven't seen a payrise in a number of years.

Unfortunately this means that I have little sympathy with those within the Public Sector who bleat on like lol does!

I work in a LA planning department and you're right, the work has dried up but it hasn't meant we're sat on our hands doing SFA. There's just no money about and no-one is prepared to risk any. There would be some, if this stupid carry on team hadn't cancelled all the school building projects, for example. Aren't we heading for a massive public spend on benefits now anyway with all this unemployment that's promised, unless Mr O isn't going to pay anyone apart from his own very nice thank you expenses ?

[skomaz]

I work in a LA planning department and you're right, the work has dried up but it hasn't meant we're sat on our hands doing SFA. There's just no money about and no-one is prepared to risk any. There would be some, if this stupid carry on team hadn't cancelled all the school building projects, for example. Aren't we heading for a massive public spend on benefits now anyway with all this unemployment that's promised, unless Mr O isn't going to pay anyone apart from his own very nice thank you expenses ?

Yes work has dried up and it is affecting us all - having been involved in both Sheffield and Leeds BSF projects I'd love to do more but if it can't be afforded then it can't be done...

However, in my experience public bodies tend to be less efficient than their private sector counterparts (I've worked in public sector offices so have experienced it first hand), work less hours, are less financially aware and are more influenced by politics (read liable to change thier minds regularly) rather then value for money driven. There is lots of waste and that needs to be resolved just as the private sector addresses its inefficiency. I'm therefore less sympathetic to public sector demand on pay and jobs.

That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of good people in the public sector - I've met plenty who are the opposite of the above, work hard, know thier stuff and are concerned about how money is spent.