Hi all,

After seeing a recent thread about new tyres, I have just swapped the fronts and rears over (left to left, right to right side), to try and even out the wear a little, as the rears had a lot more than the fronts before the swap.

Since doing a bit of research on this, a lot of people (various internet forums, not professional advice) are saying this is dangerous in the fact the better tyres need to be on the back, but the way I see this is I will forever be buying front tyres as the wear difference is massive!

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

If there is one thing I have noticed about the VRS, it has a tendency to understeer as opposed to oversteer, so this may not be such a massive problem.

Thoughts appreciated guys

Thanks

Stu

I simply replace the fronts.... my way of thinking is that if I rotate I will just have to buy 4 in one go, this way its only 2

I cetainly wouldn't say what you're doing is dangerous, the car does have ESP, a bit of a tailslide, and it (or you if you are quicker )should catch it.

Just checked the official handbook, says it's fine and it recommends it.

I've never bothered rotating tyres TBH. I suppose technically I should, but it's never been a problem.

I always get new tyres put on the back, with the rears moved to the front at the time of change. My reasons for this are two-fold:

Firstly, tyre with better tread is on the rear, the correct way around for a FWD car (bar about 50 miles of scrub-in). If my front tyres are sub-par then I can control that myself with steering/throttle adjustments. If my rear tyres are sub-par, then when the rear end goes, it's going to keep going pretty much. There's a Youtube vid with VBH in a Galaxy or similar demonstrating how good rear tyres make quite a difference even on a FWD car (arguably more so than a RWD where you can maybe adjust the throttle to get some control).

Secondly, I'll only ever need to buy a pair of tyres at any one time (barring damage or punctures). If I always put new on the back, I'm always going to wear out the fronts first, at which point new 8mm tyres go on the rear, the 5-6mm tyres (remember rears wear a lot less) get moved to the front. I wear those down to the limit, 8mm go on the rear, 5-6mm onto the front again. Whereas if I always put new on the front, eventually it's going to come about that I have to buy a full set. I find that always swapping the rear onto the front and having new on the rear helps spread the cost more evenly. I'm still going to go through pretty much the same number of tyres, obviously, but it's only ever going to be a pair.

People saying its dangerous are obliviously scared of a bit of oversteer which quite frankly the vrs could do with.

It has a tendency to understeer apart from when your hard on the brakes and it fishtails like a good one. Its far easier to drive an oversteering than an understeering fwd car fast.

I'll defo be getting mine corner weighted and set up to 4 wheel steer when i get some coolies and arb

People saying its dangerous are obliviously scared of a bit of oversteer which quite frankly the vrs could do with.

It has a tendency to understeer apart from when your hard on the brakes and it fishtails like a good one. Its far easier to drive an oversteering than an understeering fwd car fast.

I'll defo be getting mine corner weighted and set up to 4 wheel steer when i get some coolies and arb

I have definitely noticed this too - the level of understeer can be horrific, sometimes even dangerous, at times.

I have tried to put this down to the Dunlop SP's on there, but I am starting to think it is more and more a characteristic of the car itself.

I have definitely noticed this too - the level of understeer can be horrific, sometimes even dangerous, at times.

I have tried to put this down to the Dunlop SP's on there, but I am starting to think it is more and more a characteristic of the car itself.

its the dunlops. mine has the least understeer of any FWD car I've had (I think the other guy has a markI which does understeer like a bitch) put some more grippy tyres on the front and you'll forget what understeer is

its the dunlops. mine has the least understeer of any FWD car I've had (I think the other guy has a markI which does understeer like a bitch) put some more grippy tyres on the front and you'll forget what understeer is

I thought as much...when it's time to get the now rear wheels swapped, I will put the new tyres on the front and the part-worn SPs to the back...I am eagerly watching your tyre thread as well to see how you get on with the Maxxis!

I'm looking into some light weight alloys and will be wrapping them with something along the lines of r888s. I find it OK on standard roads just where i live its like a cross road system with roundabouts and its terrible to say the least especially if its a bit slick.

I'm looking into some light weight alloys and will be wrapping them with something along the lines of r888s. I find it OK on standard roads just where i live its like a cross road system with roundabouts and its terrible to say the least especially if its a bit slick.

that sort of 'track day' tyre is still better in damp/wet conditions than road tyres, it just won't clear any standing water.... that would be aquaplane city ... if you watch F1 think of it as an intermediate tyre!

that sort of 'track day' tyre is still better in damp/wet conditions than road tyres, it just won't clear any standing water.... that would be aquaplane city ... if you watch F1 think of it as an intermediate tyre!

And they don't last long. Better for a fun day car.

I'm expecting about 4000 miles or so out of a set on my mkI Fabia.

Im not saying defo 888s but that style of Tyre. And to be fair how often do you really drive that fast when there's lots of standing water?? Only time i would say this is a concern is motorways

Im not saying defo 888s but that style of Tyre. And to be fair how often do you really drive that fast when there's lots of standing water?? Only time i would say this is a concern is motorways

true, the people I know who have used them on their everyday cars (I followed shifty in the yorkshire rain in his octyII with 888's) generally get on ok with them, if you look at my recent tyre thread, I have gone for tyres with great dry weather ability, sacrificing wet weather ability to things like the rainsport, but I generally go carefull in the wet anyway.

these are "semi" track tyres, (not as hardcore as 888's) still enough displacement for standing water, but with a design for dry weather performance. http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Federal/595EVO.htm and about £50 each, I couldn't get them! :( I did try.

The 'best' tyres - imho - should be on the driven wheels. Clearly on most cars these days, that means the front.

As far as I'm aware, and apologies if this has been covered, I didn't read the whole thread, but until the airbag came along, the best tyres were put on the front of a vehicle. The 'experts' reversed this as "it's safer" if we crash forwards now, not backwards into a tree.

You know, like "salt is bad for you, it's going to kill you" - and now it's not.

As far as the sticky tyres go, if I had something more able than an 8 valve 1.6 Astra right now, I'd be tempted to have a go with the Toyo R1R.....

Having used a few sets of 888's, they are better than any tyre in the dry or moderately moist, it's just standing water they don't deal with very well, as I found out at 140mph and suddenly the 'ring was wet through.

Just my two penneth...I believe for normal road driving you really want the best (least worn) tyres on the front. These are the ones that do the most work, suffer the most weight and stress with braking, acceleration, sideways force etc. If you get a blowout or puncture on the move in the front, then control will likely be an issue. If the rear punctures or blows out it will normally not be so much of a problem to control unless you are driving like a looney. The more worn a tyre becomes the more likely it is to suffer a puncture. The arguments some of you guys are putting forward are fine but are really relating to how you would normally drive on the track I would have thought. At Hendon Police Driver training college it was always the best tyres on the front in my day because of the reasons I've mentioned. But it is each to his own and rotating is certainly not dangerous in it's own right. I don't like replacing all my tyres at the same time though which inevitably you end up doing if you rotate. I rarely ever let my front tyres get down to the lower legal limit either. I replace them in good time and have often had them put on the back so I always have good up front. That's just me though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA

This pretty much explains why I do it. This country is wet the majority of the time, and I would much rather have safer understeer than less-predictable oversteer. While I do think I'm a good driver, I'm not a pro-rallyist. Obviously when it's dry, the grip is going to be more equal anyway (as it's not relying on the grooved tread to disperse water, just the amount of rubber on the tarmac which is going to be virtually the same) so it makes less of a difference between new and part-worn.

Personally, I'd also rather have a blow out on a front wheel, again because I could do something directly to try and control that. If a rear wheel went, all you can do is try and alter the front wheels in an attempt to keep the rear in line, but if you overdo it you're just going to send the rear the other way and end up snaking down the road. Whereas if a front tyre went, I could turn to try and remove the load from it while I slowed down to try and keep control of the car.

Gavin, that's a brilliant video and explains your case perfectly. I've learned something...thanks!

This is very useful if you enjoy driving round and round a roundabout and to my knowledge there's no part of the m40 other than a few slip roads that require this degree of turning.

Thing for me in that video is she just tries to counter steer when back comes out when most people know you should accelerate out of a slide in a fwd. While counter steering. May aswell say its more useful putting Tyre chains on the rear of a fwd car.?

i wouldnt do this, surely a tyre wears to the force put onto it and moving to a diff axle will have different forces placed upon the tyre meaning it will have to then 'bed in' to the new forces applied to it, increasing wear whilst it does :wonder:

good for the tyre manufacturer if you ask me, faster wear whilst bedding in, bad for the car driver until it does

but each to their own

Edited 20 July, 201114 yr by the mad monk

most people know you should accelerate out of a slide in a fwd. While counter steering.

Trouble is that most people actually don't know this. The advice is given to put new tyres on the rear because it's easier for the average Joe to deal with understeer rather than oversteer. If it all goes horribly wrong most people will close the throttle, the car will regain grip and go round the corner.

The advice is idiot proof. If you put the new tyres on the front, you will know that the rear tyres won't deal with standing water as well, you could get oversteer in the wet, so you drive accordingly. You would be amazed how many people just don't know about this stuff.

There's a great video on YouTube showing a guy stuck in the snow with a Vectra. So he puts mats under the rear wheels and wonders why he isn't getting anywhere. These people exist

Shrug. Made sense to me before I saw that, and only improved my opinion when it was explained visually. Much as I like to push on in my car, I'd rather understeer than oversteer if I did go out of my comfort zone. Fact is I've done neither as I don't exceed the limits of the car, but if I did then I'd want it to be in a way that was easy for me to get out of.

If I had new tyres on the front, I would know that the rear tyres would lose grip first, but not when. So my opinion is that I should make it as late as possible by putting deeper tread on the back.

Id put money on it that more people will stamp on the brake probably locking the wheels going straight on than letting off.

There really is a lack of advanced driving training in the current test.

he is talking about a vRSII, reagrdless of back tyres, with ESP you cant turn off, I'd like to see someone make it spin... I couldn't.

You must remember that Vicky Butler Henderson is driving in a way to provoke the skid and is not then attempting to correct the skid in the normal way. She is purely demonstrating the 'tyre' effect we are discussing. I personally would not let any of my tyres get in the state she is using on the demo car in the video either. Asking for trouble. Mr sharkrider makes a valid point too about the VRS esp. Helluva job to make it spin in most conditions irrespective of how good the tyres. Sharkrider would know too due to his job.

Incidentally, at Hendon we had to teach blowout control to officers doing Class 1 certificate training (blue light high speed traffic officers and the like). Front tyres were deliberately blown at speed on the track. Very scary I can tell you. Actually, there isn't much you can do except hang on if it's front especially at speed. Directional control is often zero depending on speed and corning 'g'. There's a heck of a lot of weight up front and loosing 50% of the cars steering ability is serious. Rear blowouts are different and you can stop in a straight line normally unless cornering hard. No chance with a front blowout often. That's why I like to reduce front blowout risk by keeping good tyres on the front at all times. Skidding is mostly in the hands of the driver, most of the times and less of a risk if you know your car and understand the skidding principles. For the novice or uninitiated, good tyres on the back may be better...difficult to know I guess. It may be different for everyone.

Edited 21 July, 201114 yr by Estate Man