I'm not slating your car i love it, but I'm just saying that some are saying that 1/4 times are the only way of comparison so I thought I'd throw that into the pot lol

Yeh mine read 190.1 on the dyno, those are the figures the dyno showed so I'm sticking to them the same dyno not to long before that read 127.8 as standard to that's very close to the 130. So in my eyes accurate. I didn't mean Ross is running 180 just that if every dyno in the country over reads by 20 except a given few lol thats what he is running in comparison to the mk2 vrs

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by wilsy7

If the Stage 3 was in fact producing in excess of 240hp he should easily be in the very low 13s especially with the diesel torque that you guys have.

I disagree.

Jason in the Mongrel, who is somebody that doesn't talk a load of nonsense (and so has seen fit not to post here yet) has a quarter mile time of 13.7 seconds on a car known to be producing big power on a "heart breaker" rolling road. If I remember correctly.

This is a car with big injectors etc...

So with better tyres but (alledgedly) slightly (could be quite a bit) less power I have similar times.

Not sure about comparitive weight as I don't strip my car at all. It's over 1300kg.

Saying a diesel Fabia with over 240bhp should be in the very low 13s is just wrong. With so much torque you just can't get the power down early enough.

Proven big power (250bhp+) diesel Fabias are not achieving sub 13.5 seconds. None that I have heard of anyway.

i stand corrected, but that backs what i said about the stage 3 PDTDI not destroying the Stage 2 TSI vRS as they are consistently into the 13s with less than 220hp.

Is ross with the stage 3 the guy with reg no:ROS53Y? If so his times were a whole 0.05 faster than mine. Inters results

Another comparison; trevors Stage 2 TDI vRS which made 185hp on Sharks rollers(200+ on AMDs iirc) was running a fastest time of 15.46 1/4 mile at bruntingthorp GTI Inters(saturday).

vRSLoz on here was running his std TSI vRS with 180ps (177hp) and managing 15.086 fastest 1/4 at GTI inters(Sunday). Considering the weather improvments that the sunday brought over the saturday you could say that the two cars are comparable as they should be. One stock with 178hp, one stage 2 with 185hp. If trevor had 200hp+ he'd have surely been faster

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by janner_Sy

i stand corrected, but that backs what i said about the stage 3 PDTDI not destroying the Stage 2 TSI vRS as they are consistently into the 13s with less than 220hp

That does not surprise me personally.

The stage 3 diesel is starting with 130bhp and the stage 2 petrol is starting with 180bhp.

And they are both fighting against putting down the power/torque through a front wheel drive platform.

At the levels of performance people are quoting the gap in times on the quarter mile are always going to be quite small anyway.

Only a standard car would get "destroyed" in comparison.

If you want to go noticably faster you really need a bigger engine and rear/four wheel drive...

Just to add to quarter mile times..

I did numerous 14.6 second runs last year with a standard turbo, standard intercooler etc and a little bit of nitrous. Our rollers showed the car as 191bhp with the nitrous on. Nothing stripped, standard clutch, road tires etc.

And whilst we talk about RR figures, i ran Luke's standard Renault Sport Cup 172 the other day.

Figures quoted by Renault

Power 172bhp @ 6250rpm

Torque 148lb ft @ 5400rpm

Figures from our Dynostar R6600

Power 172bhp @ 6484rpm

Torque 151 lb ft @ 5401

Kev

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by Jabbasport

Very good, looks like the de-phaser on the inlet pulley is malfunctioning slightly, these engines are insanely sensitive to cam timing.

Purely as an aside Renault usually quote these engines at 167 BHP not 172, so you're still reading slightly high unless this is a really good fresh one which isn't very likely since it's a good few years old now

I did numerous 14.6 second runs last year with a standard turbo, standard intercooler etc and a little bit of nitrous. Our rollers showed the car as 191bhp with the nitrous on. Nothing stripped, standard clutch, road tires etc.

Standard injectors and 260hp, whats your injection amount, start of injection and duration?

Standard injectors and 260hp, whats your injection amount, start of injection and duration?

I'll get back to you on that after i've spoken to Mike as i have nothing to do with the mapping of these kits.

Kev

I'll get back to you on that after i've spoken to Mike as i have nothing to do with the mapping of these kits.

Kev

Ok it will be interesting to compare my duration/soi values to his. 260hp vs 200hp needs ~30% longer duration which would mean pretty funny numbers, but keep us posted!

I thought the argument was that there was not enough fuel in there to possibly get enough in to produce the bhp?

Not that I know that much on the technical side.

And whilst we talk about RR figures, i ran Luke's standard Renault Sport Cup 172 the other day.

Figures quoted by Renault

Power 172bhp @ 6250rpm

Torque 148lb ft @ 5400rpm

Figures from our Dynostar R6600

Power 172bhp @ 6484rpm

Torque 151 lb ft @ 5401

Kev

and there in lies your problem. the Clio 172 and 182 engines are famed for not making their stated power. You ask on any clio forum and you'll get that same response from pretty much all the owners who have dyno'd their cars

I thought the argument was that there was not enough fuel in there to possibly get enough in to produce the bhp?

Not that I know that much on the technical side.

Yes, thats why I'm asking for the start of injection and duration values, it will tell me immediately if a) its physically possible and do they give 260hp.

Just to clarify, originally I meant stock injectors and stock camshaft, if your cam is changed, its possible to have some more (but not that much). When Kev gets the values, we'll play a tuner game called "lets calculate horsepower"

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by shark_tech

Well it'll be interesting to see how this progresses.

I'd have thought comparing a car from each tuner on each others rolling roads would have been interesing too.

Historically in my experience when two rival tuning busineses get into a direct discussion on a public forum, while watched and heckled by the odd armchair expert, it's not usually a great end result.

Well it'll be interesting to see how this progresses.

I'd have thought comparing a car from each tuner on each others rolling roads would have been interesing too.

Historically in my experience when two rival tuning busineses get into a direct discussion on a public forum, while watched and heckled by the odd armchair expert, it's not usually a great end result.

Its good then that everyone on here is civial and polite, and it will be just that a discussion. From a consumers point its very intresting to watch how 2 very good tuning companys compare ideas and thoughts on best practises.

Wow this has escalated lol, love this thread full of so much info

Fair play Jabba getting involved... Really wanna see how this progresses...

Fair play Jabba getting involved... Really wanna see how this progresses...

Well you started it...

Well it'll be interesting to see how this progresses.

I'd have thought comparing a car from each tuner on each others rolling roads would have been interesing too.

Historically in my experience when two rival tuning busineses get into a direct discussion on a public forum, while watched and heckled by the odd armchair expert, it's not usually a great end result.

I'm trying to avoid that, hence my question regarding the start of injection and injection duration. They are not matters of opinion, and will tell me immediately if such horsepower is possible. I'm here to discuss tech issues, I'm not the business mind in this business

I'll try to explain what I mean a bit more.

This explanation is simplified alot so its not 100% as straight forward, but I'll try to be as accurate as possible.

On a PD engine ECU, you can alter the start of main injection and duration of the injection. These two values determine the efficient injection period, during which time the fuel must enter the combustion chamber.

If you advance injection, you also increase peak cylinder pressure, and you also run out of the cam lobe.

So to get more fuel, you need to inject more, thus you need to increase the injection duration.

With 27deg SOI, that is, as early as possible (too early actually, I dont like to run them so advanced because the engine starts to make funny noises), the longest duration where injection is still effective is 38 degrees. After that the car starts to lose power.

Gavins car runs 25deg SOI and 36,7deg duration and we dynoed it to just over 200hp which I feel is accurate and close to what it should do.

Standard injectors produce 60mg/stroke at 28,5deg duration, so 36,7deg gives apprx. 75mg/stroke, which equals just over 200hp. To get enough fuel for 260hp, you'd need to inject 30% more than what we did at 200ish hp, that is, 97,5mg/stroke, which would require 62,5% longer injection than standard 60mg, which means over 46 degree injection duration. Now, when we remember how important it is to get the fuel into combustion "bowl" in the piston instead of just injecting it to the cylinder, there is no way injecting so long will cause anything but unburnt diesel.

As standard, PD130 injects 47mg/stroke at 4000rpm. If we simplify things (and on a diesel, this works surprisingly well...), you need 50% more injected fuel to reach 50% more hp. So 70,5mg equals 195hp at 4000rpm, so our 75mg at 4000rpm and 200hp dyno print should in theory give 206hp (we dynoed another PD130 day before that to 207hp with same setup, Gavins car might have slightly more wear on the cam lobe or something like that, it would explain the small difference there).

The maths works surprisingly well if you think about it, its not 100% linear of course, but 2x standard hp = 2x standard injection = 94mg/stroke which is very close to my "calculated" value of 97,5mg and it also matches very close to our dyno figures at 200hp.

Bosio R783's produce (measured) about 30-35% more fuel than standard injectors, and the highest reliable results I've seen have been in the 260-270hp territory, again confirming these rough calculations.

Am I remembering correctly that you said one of the main problems with my Awesome map was that the start of injection was unchanged? So it was injecting for too long, and at the wrong times? Presumably not into the combustion bowl, which was causing the smoke when a lot of diesel passed through unburned?

edit - what are the standard SOI and duration values?

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by gavinchappell

Am I remembering correctly that you said one of the main problems with my Awesome map was that the start of injection was unchanged? So it was injecting for too long, and at the wrong times? Presumably not into the combustion bowl, which was causing the smoke when a lot of diesel passed through unburned?

I'd rather not publicly discuss the values found on other tuners maps (unless provided by the tuner himself, making them open to discussion, thats why I asked Kev if he knows them...)

Standard car injects 22 degrees (47mg/stroke) at 21deg SOI.

That's fair enough, was more after the standard values so I can try and work out your long post above

Very interesting stuff, shark_tech.

I love posts like this because it actually helps the less technically minded of us understand things better.

So what you are saying (in very basic terms) is that after a certain duration they progressively stop adding power and just start adding more and more smoke?

Is there a limit to how much fuel you have pressurised ready to inject anyway?

But if your getting unburnt fuel on a good mapped car with say 200bhp I don't see how bigger injectors is gonna give anything but more unburnt fuel and more smoke? Obviously boost asmnd other variables will be adjusted along with this?!

Could a high pressure fuel pump increase power any?

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by wilsy7

wilsy, it's not how much fuel is injected so much as WHEN that fuel is injected that is paramount.

So what you are saying (in very basic terms) is that after a certain duration they progressively stop adding power and just start adding more and more smoke?

Yes. You can inject certain amount of fuel that still gives power after TDC, but after a while you're injecting fuel when piston is so far down and the actual combustion has happened that it wont add any power.