Fair cop, lucky, my missus and cat pretty much hate me so I have free reign!

Try and fob it off as a present to her? Lol!

Oh my names Luke as well, I don't like talking to people usin their forum name!

Cheers Luke,

I did tell her the Audi was an S-Tronic so she can use it too.

(auto only license)

But the real reason is the S-Tronic is faster and with £1500 of mods it'll do a sub four second 0-62mph.

Richard

Cor blimey I've missed a lot in this thread!

Who fancies an "Above 240hp on standard injectors" rolling road day then? Free run if you are over, trophy and bottle of plonk to the winner.

For those interested in the dyno, we have a Bapro 2WD which is the only one in the country at present. It's a braked eddy current dyno for those dyno geeks out there, and it works by measuring the power at the wheels and then measuring the coastdown. As people are already seeing, it's accurate and repeatable. No doubt it's going to be a heartbreaker.

For anyone doubting it's capabilities or just interested in some credibility, if you are a Ferrari dealer and you buy a dyno from Ferrari, you buy a Bapro dyno. Bapro are original equipment suppliers to the entire Fiat group (Ferrari, Maserati, Fiat, , Fiat Professional, Alfa Romeo) and others such as Peugeot/Citroen in Italy. They have the same values as us which is why we decided to work with them, quality engineering and honest results. It's a tool, not a toy.

Use it as a excuse to go away for a night dirty weekend get your rents to have the kids haha

The half term in October is looking favorable right now as it's probably a seven hour round trip.

It is probably closer to a 6 to 6 1/2hr round trip for you (just done the round trip today in just over 8hrs)

Cor blimey I've missed a lot in this thread!

Who fancies an "Above 240hp on standard injectors" rolling road day then? Free run if you are over, trophy and bottle of plonk to the winner.

For those interested in the dyno, we have a Bapro 2WD which is the only one in the country at present. It's a braked eddy current dyno for those dyno geeks out there, and it works by measuring the power at the wheels and then measuring the coastdown. As people are already seeing, it's accurate and repeatable. No doubt it's going to be a heartbreaker.

For anyone doubting it's capabilities or just interested in some credibility, if you are a Ferrari dealer and you buy a dyno from Ferrari, you buy a Bapro dyno. Bapro are original equipment suppliers to the entire Fiat group (Ferrari, Maserati, Fiat, , Fiat Professional, Alfa Romeo) and others such as Peugeot/Citroen in Italy. They have the same values as us which is why we decided to work with them, quality engineering and honest results. It's a tool, not a toy.

Possibly a silly question here, but, how did you develop your maps and are able to provide a safe 165-170bhp on a stage 1? I have a Shark map and love it btw, not trying to stir the poo that floats around this forum

Cor blimey I've missed a lot in this thread!

Who fancies an "Above 240hp on standard injectors" rolling road day then? Free run if you are over, trophy and bottle of plonk to the winner.

For those interested in the dyno, we have a Bapro 2WD which is the only one in the country at present. It's a braked eddy current dyno for those dyno geeks out there, and it works by measuring the power at the wheels and then measuring the coastdown. As people are already seeing, it's accurate and repeatable. No doubt it's going to be a heartbreaker.

For anyone doubting it's capabilities or just interested in some credibility, if you are a Ferrari dealer and you buy a dyno from Ferrari, you buy a Bapro dyno. Bapro are original equipment suppliers to the entire Fiat group (Ferrari, Maserati, Fiat, , Fiat Professional, Alfa Romeo) and others such as Peugeot/Citroen in Italy. They have the same values as us which is why we decided to work with them, quality engineering and honest results. It's a tool, not a toy.

But as mentioned by several people? They say that iit's not the dyno that matters it's the dyno operator?

So in theory you could just make the results appear less than 240 just to save yourself the bottle of plonk and free dyno run? Lol

I really don't see how a mapped fabia vrs can make 170-180 then with all those mods only make another 20-25 hp?

Friggerpants is running 228bhp on standard injectors, so this theory puts that out the window too! And that was on a "conservative" dyno. It's a bit of a coincidence that if a car fitted with a turbo capable of say 240 bhp at 2 bar boost rolls 240 bhp running 2 bar boost.

All swings and roundabouts eh

Anyway my fabia is faster than anyone's on here

Edited 31 August, 201114 yr by wilsy7

Get your ass to Combe then and we'll see

But as mentioned by several people? They say that iit's not the dyno that matters it's the dyno operator?

So in theory you could just make the results appear less than 240 just to save yourself the bottle of plonk and free dyno run? Lol

Not really no. Everyone can see the calibration, the run, the coast down, and the calculations and how they're made. As I said, our dyno is a tool, not a toy.

I really don't see how a mapped fabia vrs can make 170-180 then with all those mods only make another 20-25 hp?

That's because you don't understand how a remap works. A stage 1 map uses the headroom in the injectors and turbo in order to create more power. Once you've used that up, you're back to the old school methods of tuning, just like tuning a NA engine where your £/hp starts to get very expensive.

Friggerpants is running 228bhp on standard injectors, so this theory puts that out the window too! And that was on a "conservative" dyno. It's a bit of a coincidence that if a car fitted with a turbo capable of say 240 bhp at 2 bar boost rolls 240 bhp running 2 bar boost.

If you really think that tuning a car, particularly a diesel, is about how much boost you can make it run, I'm afraid you need to go back to tuning school.

Friggerpants is running 228bhp on standard injectors, so this theory puts that out the window too! And that was on a "conservative" dyno. It's a bit of a coincidence that if a car fitted with a turbo capable of say 240 bhp at 2 bar boost rolls 240 bhp running 2 bar boost.

But then, I presume the turbo manufacturers always give the maximum specs that their turbo can flow i.e. if you know it can flow 1 litre/sec on full boost, and if that's combined with fuel at the optimal ratio, it'll make 240 bhp (give or take). However, it won't make that when the injectors can't flow the optimal amount of fuel and the ECU will then artificially limit the airflow to match what fuel is available (at least in VAG VNT operation) which is why the injectors are the limiting part and once the injectors are uprated you can then do the full 240 bhp on the same hybrid turbo. I have no doubt that if I spent a fortune on injectors, Mikko could find the extra 30bhp I've been missing while keeping all the rest of the existing engine parts.

That's the way I understand it anyway, but in theory that also means that there's no point anyone ever buying a PD150 hybrid because if what I said above was true, on standard injectors you'd still only be able to make the same power as a PD130 hybrid with more lag. It would only come into its own with uprated injectors to meet its full potential.

Get your ass to Combe then and we'll see

As above!

I'll probably crash or break something (or both).

Not really no. Everyone can see the calibration, the run, the coast down, and the calculations and how they're made. As I said, our dyno is a tool, not a toy.

That's because you don't understand how a remap works. A stage 1 map uses the headroom in the injectors and turbo in order to create more power. Once you've used that up, you're back to the old school methods of tuning, just like tuning a NA engine where your £/hp starts to get very expensive.

If you really think that tuning a car, particularly a diesel, is about how much boost you can make it run, I'm afraid you need to go back to tuning school.

I wouldn't have the first idea how to remap but I'd love to! Lol

I agree with you 100% that boost is the moost over rated part of mapping but i just thought that seemed like a valid theory to support the power figures that were floating around lol

As for the dyno configuration that sounds good

But then, I presume the turbo manufacturers always give the maximum specs that their turbo can flow i.e. if you know it can flow 1 litre/sec on full boost, and if that's combined with fuel at the optimal ratio, it'll make 240 bhp (give or take). However, it won't make that when the injectors can't flow the optimal amount of fuel and the ECU will then artificially limit the airflow to match what fuel is available (at least in VAG VNT operation) which is why the injectors are the limiting part and once the injectors are uprated you can then do the full 240 bhp on the same hybrid turbo. I have no doubt that if I spent a fortune on injectors, Mikko could find the extra 30bhp I've been missing while keeping all the rest of the existing engine parts.

That's the way I understand it anyway, but in theory that also means that there's no point anyone ever buying a PD150 hybrid because if what I said above was true, on standard injectors you'd still only be able to make the same power as a PD130 hybrid with more lag. It would only come into its own with uprated injectors to meet its full potential.

That all makes alot of sense I understand what your saying about the max boost buti wasnt really thinking of that, let's say that a turbo is capable of a max 270bhp but will run 240 at 2 bar then I find it strange that tuners know what a turbo should be capable of supporting at what boost and then the car shows this on the rolling road then it all turns out to be lies? Lol

As above!

I'll probably crash or break something (or both).

I know for a FACT I'd be fastest

Hate to break it to you tho :( lol

That all makes alot of sense I understand what your saying about the max boost buti wasnt really thinking of that, let's say that a turbo is capable of a max 270bhp but will run 240 at 2 bar then I find it strange that tuners know what a turbo should be capable of supporting at what boost and then the car shows this on the rolling road then it all turns out to be lies? Lol

OK, slightly different technicalities but it's the same reasoning. As a turbo manufacturer who may not know exactly what vehicle your turbo is going onto, all you can do is take the amount of air your turbo can flow at a given pressure and work out how much theoretical power that releases when provided with perfect fuelling. If your example turbo there does 270bhp absolute max, and a "known" 240bhp at 2bar, that still depends on having the right amount of fuel present to mix with that 2bar compressed air. If your injectors can't keep up then you just end up running lean (bad for petrols, less so for diesels if I remember correctly) because there's too much air being pushed into the cylinders.

AMDs and Awesome GTIs rollers are a waste of time. aMDs rollers dont give consistent figures to work off so comparison with previous runs is useless. They do however consistently over rread by around 20-30hp.

Awesomes rollers grossly over read as well especially with torque readings.

I like to quote dyno dynamics readings on the basis they can be repeate on any other DD roller around the country very well. Plus if you make good figures on a dynodynamics roller you know your car is working well. They dont nick name them heart breakers for no reason.

FWIW ive ran mine on 2 seperate dyno dynamics rollers recently. Made 210hp and 213hp. Ran mine on sharks BAPRO rollers and first run made 211hp. So its not a generous 'have some free Hp in a doggybag' dyno

And lets be fair if an operator was going to fudge it, you'd think he'd big up his own map by cheating, but no, i got exactly the same results i expected and was quoted on independant rollers.

Not sure what mod to do next. Im after the best £/hp mod. Think i might use AMDs rollers. £70 seems good for about 20hp-bargain i say!

I'd agree with that, re: Dyno Dynamics. Last dyno day I went to on DD rollers, every car apart from one was 5-10bhp under what the owners were expecting (even though pretty much perfect conditions, it was mid-December so nice cool air and an open workshop so reduced heatsoak), so they're conservative if anything IMO. If I thought my flywheel would take it, I might go to the Jap place near work where they have a DD dyno to see what that says compared to Ben's Bapro but they don't do a lot of VAG diesel stuff so I don't want to hand my car over to them to finish it off...

Not sure what mod to do next. Im after the best £/hp mod. Think i might use AMDs rollers. £70 seems good for about 20hp-bargain i say!

Don't think that counts as a mod...

FWIW ive ran mine on 2 seperate dyno dynamics rollers recently. Made 210hp and 213hp. Ran mine on sharks BAPRO rollers and first run made 211hp. So its not a generous 'have some free Hp in a doggybag' dyno

So general opinion is that a Dyno Dynamics RR is pretty consistant then?

It's not necessarily about consistency (although that helps), but accuracy. If all DD rollers over-read or under-read the same, that makes them consistent but not necessarily accurate. However, as janner says, they are nicknamed "the Heartbreaker" so I would say that as well as being consistent with other DD rollers, they're also more negative than many other makes of dyno which may make them more accurate.

I think about the best result you could hope for would be a Dyno Dynamics rolling road, operated by someone who isn't involved in the tuning market (and therefore has no ulterior motive in "bigging himself up" with massive figures, nor putting your current map down with restricted figures to persuade you to switch). Does such an impartial thing exist in the UK? I doubt it

It's not necessarily about consistency (although that helps), but accuracy. If all DD rollers over-read or under-read the same, that makes them consistent but not necessarily accurate. However, as janner says, they are nicknamed "the Heartbreaker" so I would say that as well as being consistent with other DD rollers, they're also more negative than many other makes of dyno which may make them more accurate.

I think about the best result you could hope for would be a Dyno Dynamics rolling road, operated by someone who isn't involved in the tuning market (and therefore has no ulterior motive in "bigging himself up" with massive figures, nor putting your current map down with restricted figures to persuade you to switch). Does such an impartial thing exist in the UK? I doubt it

Yes, I meant consistant and accurate.

If Janner got the same results as two DD rollers (to within a few %) as the Shark road it does show some consistancy and accuracy... unless it's coincidence.

But I wonder if it's worth the hassle as this subject will probably debated in the Fabia I section until they are all old bangers... regardless of what people do.

Have to say I prefer the quarter mile time achieved with accurate timing equipment at Santa Pod. Shows how well a car is set up and goes. There is more to a car (far more) than peak bhp.

There is more to a car (far more) than peak bhp.

Indeed, my peak figures were basically unusable (particularly the torque, as it was so low down I drove around it anyway to save flywheel damage). So although my peak figures are now 50lb/ft lower, you absolutely can't tell the difference on the road, or at least I can't. Peak power is virtually the same but now lasts longer than before so that's a bonus too.

A stage three Fabia mk1 fabia will destroy a mapped mk2, Ross did a faster quarter mile time than janner with 201 hp! And that 201 hp come from a "normal" dyno so so it's really about 180 lol his 0-60 was quicker too.

All this figure talking is a load of nonsense and proves absolutely nothing lol

A stage three Fabia mk1 fabia will destroy a mapped mk2, Ross did a faster quarter mile time than janner with 201 hp! And that 201 hp come from a "normal" dyno so so it's really about 180 lol his 0-60 was quicker too.

All this figure talking is a load of nonsense and proves absolutely nothing lol

But then a Mk1 vRS is diesel not petrol so there's a lot of torque there to get things moving assuming the driver can launch properly. And DSG is designed for road driving, so may not be optimal for drag racing (unless janner changed gear himself). It's not really a relevant comparison IMO?

Rollers give an idea of power, they`ll never be 100% accurate. Some over read, some under read. I`m pretty sure jabba`s over read, but by 60odd bhp?! I doubt it. I have a pretty highly regarded RR 2 min up the road (the one used for the U18 open day) that seems to give pretty realistic readings, used often for various magazine shoot outs. I`v been using it more for a comparison between what mods have made what difference. Remap was RR`d at around 172bhp, hybrid at low boost was 197bhp, and i`m just off to see what difference my map tweak and other little bits have done. This (IMO of course) is the best way to use rollers, to see what difference mods make to your car. Its independent from the garage doing the work, and gives about as accurate idea as is possible what difference the mods have made.

At the end of the day its how it drives, so for a show of actual performance then nothing is better than a run up santa pod. However, on the flip side its not good as a comparison against other cars unless the same driver is doing each run.

A stage three Fabia mk1 fabia will destroy a mapped mk2, Ross did a faster quarter mile time than janner with 201 hp! And that 201 hp come from a "normal" dyno so so it's really about 180 lol his 0-60 was quicker too.

Hummmmm, so yours on a remap is 190bhp but ross`s with a hybrid is 180bhp?

Matt

Just to add to the arguement about RR and the operator, i went to my local RR the other week with my mates clio cup turbo. It was RR at 270bhp and they said that was the max due to the actuator or something. My mate said he was hoping for 300 as he'd upgraded everthing included the actuator. This guy then had a mess under the bonnet, did a re-run and as if by magic the car RR at about 312bhp!! I just cant see how thats possible, i think he just turned up the boost and adjusted the RR resistance or something as he was sitting in the car to 'produce' the figure my mate wanted! BTW, the car lasted less than a week after that!

A stage three Fabia mk1 fabia will destroy a mapped mk2, Ross did a faster quarter mile time than janner with 201 hp! And that 201 hp come from a "normal" dyno so so it's really about 180 lol his 0-60 was quicker too.

All this figure talking is a load of nonsense and proves absolutely nothing lol

I wouldnt base it off my times which werent especially good. Im a lowly 9th on our leaderboard nearly a second off the leader from santa pod. And lets be fair that saturday at inters there was a headwind and slightly damp track. Judging by comparing everyones times from the day before to the same cars the day after everyone was around 1/4-1/2 a second quicker up the strip. The cupras are doing 13.5second 1/4s at the pod with the same 210hp. So i wouldnt say we would be destroyed in the same conditions. same day etc, id imagine they would be pretty similar. ( But ive only spent £140 on mods for my car ) Plus the standard 205/40 conti 2s have about as much grip as dog on an ice rink.

The DSG7 is not ideal for 1/4 runs anyway. Unlike the DSG6 which had Launch control, the DSG7 has to be held on the brake off the revs at the start line, thus launching from tickover. Everyone else gets to dump the clutch with revs on.

If the Stage 3 was in fact producing in excess of 240hp he should easily be in the very low 13s especially with the diesel torque that you guys have.

Edited 1 September, 201114 yr by janner_Sy