"Helper Springs"

[Rab-k]

In an attempt to avoid this in future...

...I'm considering purchasing "progressive helper springs" or simply beefed up main springs so that the rear can cope with the loads shown on the pic.

Anybody know how fitting such might affect your warranty (car is less than year old) and insurance, or if Skoda do an equivalent? Alternatively, would replacing the 4x4 springs with those of the Scout make any difference?

Cheers

Rab-k

[Moley RUFC]

I bet Boeing 747 planes have been trying to land on your roof with the lights shining that high!

[meta55]

what do you have in the boot, i dont see how just the bikes would put the back end down that bad. i had 4 adults and a 2 year old plus all or cases and hand luggage for a two week hol and my back end was still alot higher than yours. it might be just 4x4 thing.

[ian-inhome]

I have the same problem with my Octavia hatchback with just 2 bikes on the back and camping gear in the boot. No back seat pasengers. Gettingt on and off the ferry was a nightmare even at crawling speed. Going over Speedhumps at less than 10mph still resulted in the bottom of the tow bar catching on most bumps

[2WSR55PB]

looks like my old mk 1 ford escort sitting that low at the back

[meta55]

does the 4x4 have a soft suspension set that would cause the back end to sag like that.

[lamlash]

It doesn't look very safe to me. I suppose your 4 bikes plus the hefty looking carrier must weigh close to the 75kg noseweight limit of the Octavia and as the weight acts well behind the back of the car they represent a huge levering action on the rear suspension of the car - hence the excessive droop. I don't know what the implications are of exceeding the max towball noseweight with a static load - no doubt someone here will be able to advise.

What to do? Well the Scout has a slightly higher ground clearance than the 4x4 so you can't use Scout springs (unless you fit them on the front as well to keep things level). Alternatively you can get custom springs fabricated (i.e. same length but stiffer) but they will probably spoil the ride when you're not loaded up as the cars dampers will be matched to the spring rate of the existing springs. You'd have to tell your insurance company about either of these modifications so they are far from ideal solutions. Spring assisters have got to be worth a try (e.g. Grayston) as they are relatively cheap and can be re-sold on ebay if they aren't successful. Lots of caravanners have used them very successfully to solve their drooping problems.

Another approach would be to take less stuff on holiday with you and get a narrower roof box and put two of the bikes on the roof. If all else fails swap to a car with self levelling suspension like the Volvo XC70 and prepare for open wallet surgery when it goes wrong.

[Web Ferret]

I had the same problem towing a caravan. Some stuff in the boot and the van on the back and the nose was in the air with the associated loss of grip!

I thought about the helpers but in the end I put a towbar onto the other car.

[Rab-k]

It doesn't look very safe to me. I suppose your 4 bikes plus the hefty looking carrier must weigh close to the 75kg noseweight limit of the Octavia and as the weight acts well behind the back of the car they represent a huge levering action on the rear suspension of the car - hence the excessive droop. I don't know what the implications are of exceeding the max towball noseweight with a static load - no doubt someone here will be able to advise.

What to do? Well the Scout has a slightly higher ground clearance than the 4x4 so you can't use Scout springs (unless you fit them on the front as well to keep things level). Alternatively you can get custom springs fabricated (i.e. same length but stiffer) but they will probably spoil the ride when you're not loaded up as the cars dampers will be matched to the spring rate of the existing springs. You'd have to tell your insurance company about either of these modifications so they are far from ideal solutions. Spring assisters have got to be worth a try (e.g. Grayston) as they are relatively cheap and can be re-sold on ebay if they aren't successful. Lots of caravanners have used them very successfully to solve their drooping problems.

Another approach would be to take less stuff on holiday with you and get a narrower roof box and put two of the bikes on the roof. If all else fails swap to a car with self levelling suspension like the Volvo XC70 and prepare for open wallet surgery when it goes wrong.

The carrier is a Thule Euroclassic G5 909 (plus the 4th bike fitting), which together with the bikes hit 75kg. (The towball limit is 100kg, nose weight 75kg and the bike carrier itself has a bike weight limit of 60kg, therefore everything was within tolerance). The boot just had luggage and wasn't even loaded above window height, and the roofbox had the aftermath of a trip to Costco; self catering in Scandinavia is best sorted before you leave...

I wonder if the lighter 1.6CR engine, compared to 2.0L, resulted in the nose being even more raised than would be the case with the heavier engine. In any event, I had the headlight adjusters wound all the way down, however I couldn't do much about the DRLs pointing skyward.

The handling wasn't too bad but speed bumps and getting on/off the ferry ramp was, how shall I put it, interesting...

I just wouldn't have expected the back end to droop so much given it wasn't subject to excessive, by which I mean over the limit, loads. I'll drop SUK CS an e-mail and see what they say, if anything.

[SB1962]

My Scout & the Octy 4x4 I had before it are the same so upgrading to the Scout springs won't help. I have a towbar Thule carrier too but for 3 bikes. I'm actually surprised how low it gets with just the boot loaded without the carrier. I'd been thinking along the same lines re assisters. Is it a call to the insurance company for these or the linked helper springs??

[matt_theforce]

When I was a kid my dad owned a Fiat Tempra 1.9tdi saloon and that used to sit on the bump stops whenever we hitched up the caravan, even though it was well within the guidelines. He bought some Monroe adjustable dampers for the rear which allowed him to increase the air pressure in the dampers when towing and decrease when not and they worked fine and covered many thousands of miles.

There must be something out there that can offer the same benefits for the Octavia

[The Ships Cat]

Hi Rab, I fitted the exact same springs to my Octavia VRS estate about 18 months ago and am really pleased with them. I am a service engineer with a boot full of spares and the back of the car used to drop a lot due to a lot of the weight being behind the rear axel, When the car is empty of spares the ride height measured at the rear wheel arch is about 10mm higher than loaded. If you do fit them youself then worth getting replacement bolts and nuts, It takes about 30 minutes a side to fit and the job is a lot easier if you have two trolly jacks, hope this helps

[gregoir]

I have had a couple of bikes on the rear plus a full boot (with several dozen bottles of wine) and gas cylinders and food on the back seat. The back end was hardly any lower than usual. Must be my 'sports suspension'. Think that you are seriously overloaded with safety and other implications.

[foo]

That looks like an accident waiting to happen.

[uncle bulgaria]

Our local Ambulance service use Scouts and with all their kit in, they are a "little heavy on the rear", if you'll pardon the expression, but not that noticeable! I've a couple of contacts in the service, so I'll see if I can find out what if anything they use.

The problem is likely to be that to compensate for the impact of the annual holiday load, you may have to settle for an "upset ride" the rest of the time, unless what ever you use can be easily removed and re-fitted.

I'd say stick the bikes on the roof and if you must fit something to your tow ball, pull a small light weight trailer. I'd doubt it would be much longer than your present rig & would pose less of a threat in the leverage department!

[blueR36]

As above, thats a hgv, either put them on the roof get a trailer or leave them at home ( and hire when you get there) you must blind people, and have you extra lights and reg plate on the rear

[Rab-k]

As above, thats a hgv, either put them on the roof get a trailer or leave them at home ( and hire when you get there) you must blind people, and have you extra lights and reg plate on the rear

Lights/plate on rear; adjusted the front beams using the levelling dial on the dash.

To be honest, it shouldn't matter if it is a bike carrier, a trailer, or a caravan on the rear - the nose weight was equal to the max specified for the car: 75kg.

As it happens, I've nowhere to store a trailer, and renting bikes isn't always an option; unless you're off to Center Parcs, which we weren't. The weight in the roof box wasn't anywhere near the 75kg limit and the boot, as can be seen in the pic, wasn't loaded above window height, and consisted of a few sports bags full of clothes.

Some comments have me a bit confused re "overloaded", so help me out, please...

Model's Max Payload (incl. driver & equipment) = 675kg

(Skoda calculate driver = 75kg)

For arguments sake:

10kg Adult Male (I'm a bit over 75kg)

65kg Adult Female

45kg Child 1

45kg Child 2

75kg Roof load (max)

75kg Nose weight (max)

45kg Fuel

100kg Luggage

460kg Total

Am I missing something, or does the above fall within limits on all fronts? (The weight on the roof I'll say again was nowhere near 75kg)

On paper the car is not overloaded, therefore why does it appear to be so???

The Ships Cat

Did the ride (unloaded) feel noticeably stiffer with the MAD springs? How did you get on with insurance and warranty (if you took the trouble...).

Cheers

[mannyo]

That looks very much like the maximum load on the rear axle has been exceeded, if you were stopped you could be fined heavily. I drove my old Octy estate from the UK to Costa Del Sol with 3 adults and luggage for 3 weeks, and even on standard suspension the car looked nothing like above. I would be very concerned with stability, especially in a cross wind as it could be extremely dangerous.

The max payload maybe 675kg, but its not all expected to be biased towards the rear axle. The roof box will be biased towards the rear axle, and the more weight you hang out past the rear axle will result in the frontend sitting higher.

The 75KG nose weight is the maximum weight on the tow ball, move that weight out further past the ball and the actual weight on the ball increases even though the bikes weigh 75KG, just like a see-saw or old fashioned scales (think how a lever works). then the effect is to raise the front of the car up in the air. I reckon the overhang on the back with all that weight is the issue. The further back you go, the higher the front will get.

The only way to fix it is to find an alternative method to carry the bkes. Fitting helper springs will not solve the problem at the front end of the car, it will still be up in the air, due to what I said in the previous paragraph.

[Rab-k]

That looks very much like the maximum load on the rear axle has been exceeded, if you were stopped you could be fined heavily. I drove my old Octy estate from the UK to Costa Del Sol with 3 adults and luggage for 3 weeks, and even on standard suspension the car looked nothing like above. I would be very concerned with stability, especially in a cross wind as it could be extremely dangerous.

The max payload maybe 675kg, but its not all expected to be biased towards the rear axle. The roof box will be biased towards the rear axle, and the more weight you hang out past the rear axle will result in the frontend sitting higher.

The 75KG nose weight is the maximum weight on the tow ball, move that weight out further past the ball and the actual weight on the ball increases even though the bikes weigh 75KG, just like a see-saw or old fashioned scales (think how a lever works). then the effect is to raise the front of the car up in the air. I reckon the overhang on the back with all that weight is the issue. The further back you go, the higher the front will get.

The only way to fix it is to find an alternative method to carry the bkes. Fitting helper springs will not solve the problem at the front end of the car, it will still be up in the air, due to what I said in the previous paragraph.

Hmmm, that's a good point you make re. the overhang.

I'm still surprised by the whole setup. However, my weight calculations overlooked one thing - none of us were in the car when the picture was taken, therefore all you have is:

75kg Bikes/carrier

75kg Box

100kg Luggage

50kg Fuel

300kg Total

This out of a maximum of 675kg!

As I've stated earlier, on paper everything is within limits:

675kg max payload for car (300kg actual, w/out pax)

100kg max payload for towbar (75kg actual)

60kg max payload for carrier (54kg actual)

75kg max nose weight (75kg actual, not taking into account overhang)

75kg max roof weight (<75kg actual)

Begs the question what sort of car, and how much nose weight, are these bike carriers designed for? I wonder if I wrote to Thule some clever person could give me the actual weight on the towball, allowing for the overhang...

[blueR36]

your lights at the front will surely blind people , especially if you are going up a hill, ( and you cannot wind down anymore) you originally said it was for a scandanavian trip, very easy to hire bikes abroad. I am a keen cyclist (12000 miles a year !) but would never dream of taking all those bikes, leave them at home and hire. Will act asa lever to put you in a spin too .

[patrolman]

I have Mad helper springs fitted ,I tow a 1300kg caravan and before the springs were fitted I was getting the same results , the springs have improved the deflection greatlybut I was still getting a low rear end ,so on our way to a holiday i stopped at the local weigh bridge ( council tip ) and was gob smacked at the results I had exceeded the total load for the car on just the rear axle ,only after re packing the car and caravan could i get it close ,

The nose weight is usually measured through the ball in a vertical plain , I would suggest that you have hung the weight of the ball as stated befor

Its not just the suspension to consider there is the load rating of the tyres to think about

[Rab-k]

Problem here seems to be either; the 4x4 springs are a bit on the soft side, or the lever effect of the bike-carrier. (or combination)

Thule's technical specifications clearly state:

"Bike-carrier unit weight: 18 kg

Permitted load capacity: max 60 kg

Safety instructions for checking before and during travel

* Not recommeded for tow bars made of aluminium.

- Never exceed the towball capacity of the car. Note! That the

combined weight of the bike-carrier unit and load never

exceed the permitted towball capacity. The information of the

car's towball capacity can be found next to the towball or in the

vehicle information booklet."

Nowhere is mentioned any lever effect, and the only max kg figures appear in relation to the Westfalia Bar (100kg) , the vehicle nose weight (75kg), and the bike-carrier (60kg). None were exceeded and until such time as Thule or SUK CS get back to me with a probable explanation and possible solution, I'll be delighted to hear from anyone with experience of "helper springs".

patrol man

Thanks. Great idea to use the weighbrdge and good point about the tyres. Did you have to tell your insurers given it is probably classed as a 'Mod'?

Edited 7 October, 2011 by Rab-k

[patrolman]

Problem here seems to be either; the 4x4 springs are a bit on the soft side, or the lever effect of the bike-carrier. (or combination)

Thule's technical specifications clearly state:

"Bike-carrier unit weight: 18 kg

Permitted load capacity: max 60 kg

Safety instructions for checking before and during travel

* Not recommeded for tow bars made of aluminium.

- Never exceed the towball capacity of the car. Note! That the

combined weight of the bike-carrier unit and load never

exceed the permitted towball capacity. The information of the

car's towball capacity can be found next to the towball or in the

vehicle information booklet."

Nowhere is mentioned any lever effect, and the only max kg figures appear in relation to the Westfalia Bar (100kg) , the vehicle nose weight (75kg), and the bike-carrier (60kg). None were exceeded and until such time as Thule or SUK CS get back to me with a probable explanation and possible solution, I'll be delighted to hear from anyone with experience of "helper springs".

patrol man

Thanks. Great idea to use the weighbrdge and good point about the tyres. Did you have to tell your insurers given it is probably classed as a 'Mod'?

When I insured the car I explained i would be fitting a tow bar and springs to tow a caravan ,there responce was it would be ok and had no cost chainges

[foo]

Thule's technical specifications clearly state:

"STUFF"

Nowhere is mentioned any lever effect, and the only max kg figures appear in relation to the Westfalia Bar (100kg) , the vehicle nose weight (75kg), and the bike-carrier (60kg). None were exceeded and until such time as Thule or SUK CS get back to me with a probable explanation and possible solution, I'll be delighted to hear from anyone with experience of "helper springs".

You are allowed to apply some common sense even if all the safety boxes are ticked off. IMO if it looks unsafe, it probably is, unless it's at Alton Towers (but especially at Blackpool).

[Rab-k]

You are allowed to apply some common sense even if all the safety boxes are ticked off. IMO if it looks unsafe, it probably is, unless it's at Alton Towers (but especially at Blackpool).

Common sense is one thing, understanding the mechanical physics of Newtons of force and lever effects is another. In the absence of an A Level in Physics, when all you've got to go on, (before laying out not insignificant sums of cash on towbars, bike-carriers, and lighter bikes than previously owned), is what you can find in print; then forgive me for being a bit confused when what on paper appears to be ok is, in reality, far from it.

A couple of posts here show that others have had issues with towing/carrying and as a result have resorted to helper springs; anyone else?

patrol man

Cheers

Edited 7 October, 2011 by Rab-k