Wind Power to the rescue

[trundlenut]

Unfortunately mass fitting PV panels to houses would probably make the grid fall over. The grid was designed to send electricity from big generating points out to multiple users. I have known sites where the existing network can't cope with PV and so people have had to cancel installations, and on one occasion panels had to be removed from a house.

I think they have had problems in Germany where too much electricity from PV has overloaded the network.

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[Ootohere]

There is lots going on with Renewables in Scotland not just for Electricity but with heat.

But then Scotland has had different building controls and types of roof construction for a long time now.

http://www.forthenergy.co.uk

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26767705

People want Power & Energy, just not generated where they live, or transported by pylons near them.

 

What amazes me is how every year there are adverts and Grant Schemes for Home Insulation.

How can there have been 40 years now of Grants and still all properties are not done to any standard.

& how many properties have had one grant after another over the decades and are still not insulated properly.

[trundlenut]

You can get PV roofing tiles which blend into the roof and obviously fit to the shape off the roof.

Unfortunately my house has a north, East and west facing roof with a dirty great chimney stack at the southern end which rather scuppers using PV.

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[trundlenut]

There is lots going on with Renewables in Scotland not just for Electricity but with heat.

But then Scotland has had different building controls and types of roof construction for a long time now.

http://www.forthenergy.co.uk

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26767705

People want Power & Energy, just not generated where they live, or transported by pylons near them.

What amazes me is how every year there are adverts and Grant Schemes for Home Insulation.

How can there have been 40 years now of Grants and still all properties are not done to any standard.

& how many properties have had one grant after another over the decades and are still not insulated properly.

Unfortunately I think forth energy use wood from North America or Scandinavia, which isn't really renewable once you take the transport into account.

As for insulation I think take up has never been good. Mind you'll the solid walled houses are a lot more difficult and expensive to insulate, and there are a lot of those in the UK.

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[Kandy]

Solar supporters were boasting about making a sizeable contribution, briefly at 14:00hrs, a few days back.

 

What they don't tell you is that in order for the grid to take that solar power, wind turbines had to be paid to dump, and 2 big 'dirty' carbon burning power stations had to be fired up to balance the grid.

 

And now some nutters are proposing that we can run without a baseload at all.

[gadgetman]

I'm glad subsidies are being cut, as it's us the end users that are paying it (approx £50/year per household).

[Ootohere]

http://www.forthenergy.co.uk/faq.asp

 

Even Renewables like timber needs imported and transported, but the idea is you are growing renewable resources,

and Oil & Gas is still going to be Imported but the issues are how clean or dirty and polluting different fuels are, 

and Burning Oil & Gas for Heat or to produce Electricity is wasteful & polluting.

[trundlenut]

http://www.forthenergy.co.uk/faq.asp

Even Renewables like timber needs imported and transported, but the idea is you are growing renewable resources,

and Oil & Gas is still going to be Imported but the issues are how clean or dirty and polluting different fuels are,

and Burning Oil & Gas for Heat or to produce Electricity is wasteful & polluting.

Yes, but by the time you have chopped the trees down, turned them into chips, moved it to the port, sent it across the Atlantic all using fossil fuels the renewable aspect is getting a bit tenuous. Especially as people are chopping down virgin forest to provide the wood.

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[Ootohere]

But people were doing lots of things.

 ? Are they chopping down Virgin Forests to Burn in the UK.?

What is a Virgin Forest, the ones that are Virgin and were chopped down can not be chopped down again.

So they are either replanted, or they were cleared like in South America, and not for Burning.

 

That was how there was a British Empire & the Commonwealth,  we had to go around the world to produce, and sell and import to Britain.

We still do, Cattle (meat), Crops. Coal, Oil & Gas.

 

Now you grow Willow & Crops to burn, you grow trees, and use waste / bark etc, and compress it for transportation.

and move it on Ships moving wood for building in one direction and being the wood to burn back.

 

Just as used to happen when Coal was shipped and roofing tiles brought back because you needed ballast.

The British Isles being an Island Nation always has to Trade and have Shipping and a Merchant Fleet.

 

Britain has huge ports, imports and exports, it is how Britain has an Economy and Trades in Goods, 

and earns other currencies to have a Financial Market.

We have rather a lot of products coming and going, which is why we needs so much fuel and energy.

[trundlenut]

But people were doing lots of things.

? Are they chopping down Virgin Forests to Burn in the UK.?

What is a Virgin Forest, the ones that are Virgin and were chopped down can not be chopped down again.

So they are either replanted, or they were cleared like in South America, and not for Burning.

That was how there was a British Empire & the Commonwealth, we had to go around the world to produce, and sell and import to Britain.

We still do, Cattle (meat), Crops. Coal, Oil & Gas.

Now you grow Willow & Crops to burn, you grow trees, and use waste / bark etc, and compress it for transportation.

and move it on Ships moving wood for building in one direction and being the wood to burn back.

Just as used to happen when Coal was shipped and roofing tiles brought back because you needed ballast.

The British Isles being an Island Nation always has to Trade and have Shipping and a Merchant Fleet.

Britain has huge ports, imports and exports, it is how Britain has an Economy and Trades in Goods,

and earns other currencies to have a Financial Market.

We have rather a lot of products coming and going, which is why we needs so much fuel and energy.

The issue is people are chopping down trees and carting them halfway round the world to them burn them. This is not part of trade or using waste from another process, the whole things happens purely to produce power and you can get a ship full of wood from the US or Canada cheap. It's not done to be sustainable, it's not making use of something that would go to waste. The industry exists solely to burn wood thousands of miles from where it is growing. It's not trees which were planted as a commodity to be burnt. It's because there are very big areas of forest and people can see a way to exploit it to make money.

Worst of all is that is subsidised, or certainly was.

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[Ootohere]

As you say,

Those forests that are not Rain Forests are planted for timber, not to look pretty.

They are countries who's economy comes from timber and trading. Lumber, lumberjacks, mills, haulage and shipping,

so what is the plan, put them out of work.

You do not leave trees to grow for ever, they need Farmed. 

You plant types and for uses, and you get waste and by products.

 

Coal from Britain went around the world, now we bring it into the UK, that was another countries resource, we import it and burn it.

Australia is being raped of Coal & Minerals, and they are letting that happen because Australia trades in Coal & Minerals.

 

What was subsidised and is a scandal was & is UK Woodland as a Tax Effective Investment for the Wealthy as Pension Funds and Child Tax Products, 

and many of that woodland has not matured, and much of it was hopeless as commercial crops.

http://taxinsider.co.uk/388-Investing_in_Woodlands_with_Tax_Free_Returns.html

[trundlenut]

As you say,

Those forests that are not Rain Forests are planted for timber, not to look pretty.

They are countries who's economy comes from timber and trading. Lumber, lumberjacks, mills, haulage and shipping,

so what is the plan, put them out of work.

You do not leave trees to grow for ever, they need Farmed.

You plant types and for uses, and you get waste and by products.

Coal from Britain went around the world, now we bring it into the UK, that was another countries resource, we import it and burn it.

Australia is being raped of Coal & Minerals, and they are letting that happen because Australia trades in Coal & Minerals.

What was subsidised was UK Woodland as a Tax Effective Investment for the Wealthy as Pension Funds and Child Tax Products,

and many of that woodland has not matured, and much of it was hopeless as commercial crops.

But they are not planted for timber, and it is not renewable. It is forest that would not be touched otherwise.

Yes it employs some people, but to say you are doing it to save the environment is wrong.

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[Ootohere]

Employs some people.  You maybe need to get out and about a bit more.,  i thought you travelled a bit and knew about energy.

Maybe checked out the US, Scandinavia etc.  

 

It is not to save the environment, it is to use the environment in a sustainable way, 

give work, make an economy, feed people and not pollute the earth for future generations.

 

Like Nuclear and the problems it causes for ever into the future,

and then the Fossil Fuels, which after all is just rotted & compressed vegetation / trees from million of years ago.

& once burned is gone for ever.

[trundlenut]

Employs some people. You maybe need to get out and about a bit more., i thought you travelled a bit and knew about energy.

Maybe checked out the US, Scandinavia etc.

Your missing the point.

What if you had to remove PV panels from your house every six month and send them back to the manufacturer to be serviced. That would employ people, support trade etc, but what would it do to the "greeness" of the panels?

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[Ootohere]

No i do not miss the point.

I know where the Plastics come from, and the metal, glass etc, and the fuel for the vehicles. 

That already happens now and roll it out, and get economy of scale, but all that still requires energy, so you make energy to use energy, 

its just the same old.

 

A rethink is need, change the products, change the maintenance, use a local firm etc.

But people want cheap, and people want profits.

 

It is funny how many City People & Town people forget that all products first come out of the ground or are grown or come out from under the sea, and not out of Transportation Containers and HGV's.

[gadgetman]

Come out of the ground for pennies.

Come out of containers for £££££

[Ootohere]

Is that your vegetables and your bottled milk costing pennies because this is the UK,

or is it the components for your computers, your jewellery or the diesel in your van than came out of the ground for pennies and came to a retailer near you after lots of work by lots of people.

Try growing and producing your own and see the time and cost involved, maybe start with just an allotment a well for water and a cow or goat and feed your self and see how much time you have left to earn some money to buy the other things you need, like cut fire wood.

 

The work anyone does in a day does not equate to enough work to buy at the proper costs all they use and consume in a day.

That is from turning on the tap in the morning, switching on the kettle and for the rest of the day.

 

£2-£5 a day will provide heat and energy for your home or workplace, 

and yet to travel by a vehicle it costs £6+ to travel 30-60 miles in fuel cost.

[trundlenut]

No i do not miss the point.

I know where the Plastics come from, and the metal, glass etc, and the fuel for the vehicles.

That already happens now and roll it out, and get economy of scale, but all that still requires energy, so you make energy to use energy,

its just the same old.

A rethink is need, change the products, change the maintenance, use a local firm etc.

But people want cheap, and people want profits.

It is funny how many City People & Town people forget that all products first come out of the ground or are grown or come out from under the sea, and not out of Transportation Containers and HGV's.

No, you just proved you don't.

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[gadgetman]

Is that your vegetables and your bottled milk costing pennies because this is the UK,

or is it the components for your computers, your jewellery or the diesel in your van than came out of the ground for pennies and came to a retailer near you after lots of work by lots of people.

Try growing and producing your own and see the time and cost involved, maybe start with just an allotment a well for water and a cow or goat and feed your self and see how much time you have left to earn some money to buy the other things you need, like cut fire wood.

The work anyone does in a day does not equate to enough work to buy at the proper costs all they use and consume in a day.

That is from turning on the tap in the morning, switching on the kettle and for the rest of the day.

£2-£5 a day will provide heat and energy for your home or workplace,

and yet to travel by a vehicle it costs £6+ to travel 30-60 miles in fuel cost.

Growing your own isn't cost effective. People do it for better fresher produce.

On a commercial scale however your cucumber, pack of tomatoes etc cost the commercial farmer significantly less than they retail for.

But then I'm sure you know this already, so unsure your point

[VWD]

Recent news item on hot air balloons vs solar panel ones raises a point. Theory of a hot air baloon rising is down to hot air. Now to help out with southern energy problems and save damage to HOC, possibly it might be an idea to vent the HON MEMBERS outputs through a funnel to drive one massive wind generator on top of HOC. At the very least, some good would come of the waffling in the House.

[Ryeman]

Our wacky Waubra Group get a mention in dispatches............apparently facts now depend on your point of view -

https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/12/13/shadow-honest-journalism-gatehouse-media-publishes-atrocious-anti-wind-farm-propaganda?utm_source=dsb newsletter

 

sad times

[Ootohere]

Good to see that the Wind Turbines are going up soon off the coast from Donald Trump's Trump International Golf Resort (Golf course) after all 

his attempts to stop that happening.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-42357518 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38069605 

 

Plenty Wind Farms on and offshore still being built and coming online as obviously they do what they are designed to which is produce electricity, 

which can be used in the production of Oil petrochemicals at cracking plants and refineries & to produce hydrogen.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41652707 

Edited 16 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[Ryeman]

Murdoch is prepared to destroy the credibility (?) of his flagship newspaper, The Australian, by backing an endless war against renewable energy.

When those opinionated from humanities, blunder into the world of science and lecture those who only deal in empirical evidence, it makes you wonder if things could get any worse.

[lol-lol]

53 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Murdoch is prepared to destroy the credibility (?) of his flagship newspaper, The Australian, by backing an endless war against renewable energy.

When those opinionated from humanities, blunder into the world of science and lecture those who only deal in empirical evidence, it makes you wonder if things could get any worse.

 

Murdoch hates staying in California as they are so pro climate change (no wonder when much of the state is on fire in the middle of winter).  He is a dinosaur that has not got much of anything left in his locker and now sold much of his empire with just the bitter pieces of newspapers whether it is the Australian or The Sun in the UK.  Saddest thing is there are people swayed or their jaundiced views re-enforced by their spin.  Trump was majorly worried that Murdoch Fox News, no surprises.    Nice to go to Liverpool where they will not truck the rag in the town after Hillsborough.      

[Ryeman]

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

 

Murdoch hates staying in California as they are so pro climate change (no wonder when much of the state is on fire in the middle of winter).  He is a dinosaur that has not got much of anything left in his locker and now sold much of his empire with just the bitter pieces of newspapers whether it is the Australian or The Sun in the UK.  Saddest thing is there are people swayed or their jaundiced views re-enforced by their spin.  Trump was majorly worried that Murdoch Fox News, no surprises.    Nice to go to Liverpool where they will not truck the rag in the town after Hillsborough.      

It says something when Trump’s support from Fox News viewers plunges from 90 - 58% (PBS).

The old saying about fooling some of the people all of the time comes to mind.