Help with Estelle please!

[buffalox]

Hello all,

I am the proud owner of a 1988 Skoda 120L, it was acquired from Scotland, one previous (female) owner who drove 18985 miles over 18 years, then when the starter motor gave up took it to a garage who fixed it, but as she had decided to give up driving left it with them as payment. That was in 2005-2006. They kept it in a corner for the next 6 years, and then I bought it!

It was supposedly serviced before being shipped down to Portsmouth. Initially I had some trouble getting it started, but having mastered the use of the choke it starts pretty well. I've been mostly doing short journeys, no more than 7 miles and things have been fine. The only things I've done is fully charge the battery, check the distributor cap and plugs, fill with unleaded (completely empty) and a bit of redex, and generally poke about while I was cleaning it and trying to get it started on the first day and everything seemed OK. However...

I decided to be a bit more ambitious and drive just over 25 miles to my partner's place before catching a flight yesterday. It started OK, got up to temperature, and all was well for the dual carriageway section (first half an hour) going at around 56mph overtaking the (very) occasional slower vehicle. Once I turned off and started encoutering turns and roundabouts having to shift gears a lot more often I started to notice it was running a bit rougher with jerky acceleration, mainly in 3rd and 4th. After about 10 minutes of this I came to a halt at a T junction and it stalled and wouldn't restart until I'd pushed it back from the junction and it had been off for about 5 minutes. It was then really jerky and didn't seem happy in any gear, I'd accelerate through 2nd but once in 3rd the power would just drop away until I was literally florring it to get any response, and then drop down to 2nd to accelerate again. Just as I was nearing my destination a light ahead turned Red and of course it stalled again. On came the Hazards and I sat there thinking I'd need to wait a couple minutes before it would start again. Someone walked up to the car and offered to give me a push which I couldn't really refuse as I was embarassed enough to be liviing the cliche, and it started briefly before stalling again. :( I rolled down the hill and around a roundabout 100m from my destination, waited a minute then started with half to full choke and just drove for 15 seconds like that to get around the corner where it promptly stalled again - just in time for me to push it into a parking space!! :S

Any ideas? I'm not with the car (I'm in the Czech Republic ironically enough) and need to drive back home at around midnight when I return to the UK so I can get to work in the morning... Fuel Filter perhaps? A magic Czech part I can pick up while I'm here?

Edited 13 January, 2012 by buffalox

[demag]

Hello Buffalox,

I had an Estelle years ago, 105? What a smashing motor, I loved it. When I moved onto something else my daughter took it on and she also loved it.

It seems your problem could be one of a number of things without more info to go on. The clue is it stood for some years so is probably something to do with that. Maybe a good service would do it some good. So to try and get a little bit more specific let's break this into Fuel and Ignition.

Ok Fuel

If it's been stood and you say the tank was completely empty there may be some muck got sucked into the carb, the usual thing that blocks up is the idle jet. Don't ask me where it is on that carb I can't remember. However if the engine will start with your foot hard on the throttle (to the floor) and it revs ok but won't tick over the chances are it is the idle jet that is blocked and it will need blowing out. Don't be tempted to poke about with wire as this can ruin your carb. Didn't there used to be a clear inline filter on these or am I dreaming? If there is, is it full of fuel? If there isn't one a quick test to see if fuel is reaching the carb is to take the fuel pipe from the carb and stick it into a bottle and get someone to briefly turn the engine on the starter. If fuel spurts into the bottle then the pump is probably ok, if not then the fuel pump will need looking at, it might want new diaphragms. Be careful though you don't want to start a fire! A trick I once did with a Citroen Bx suffering similar symptoms was to take the air filter off the top of the carb. I bought an aerosol of carb cleaner and blasted it down every little orifice I could see in the carb (mind your eyes for splashing chemicals) and it worked! It dislodged the blockage and ran great after.

Now Ignition

If it runs ok while it's cold but gets progressively worse as it warms up then the chances are the high tension circuit is breaking down. The favourite for this is usually the coil and it might want replacing. Also old sparkplug leads are prone to breaking down electrically. One thing that is quite often overlooked on old cars that have been standing is the points. They should be adjusted and have a gap approx 18-20 thou. or about as thick as your thumb nail. If you can't see a gap then that is probably the fault. Over the years the grease on the little cam in the distributor will dry up and the operating heel on the points will wear down causing them to close up hence no spark at the plugs. The distributor cap might be failing but I doubt it if it was running ok unless possibly the engine has somehow got wet.

Don't give up on it, it will only be something silly and you will end up with a little gem. Good luck. If you know a friendly garage it might pay to let them give it a once over. Cheers, hope this helps.

[skodanorman]

Is this the orange one that was on eBay? Glad it has gone to a good home.

*paging DaveRapid*

[daverapid]

If the 6mm internal diameter fuel hose from tank to pump is the original "cloth covered" type replace it...when they age they pull in air from outside rather than fuel from the tank. While you're under the car near the tank inspect the large fuel filler rubber hose too...either of those hoses breaking up internally will result in ,little black bits entering the carb and causing havoc. Also clean the fuel pump filter and the filter in the top of the carb where the fuel enters [14mm bolt]. You will most likely end up stripping and cleaning out the carb. Check for air leaks on the inlet side...particularly the front to rear brake servo vacuum hose.

Also worth replacing points and condenser....condensers in particular are prone to breaking down when warmed up.

[buffalox]

Thank you for the suggestions!

Mine is a Willow Green 120L 4 speed F reg. I think the orange one was an LS 5 speed with 14K miles. Also, I think I paid a little too much for mine, but there aren't many around any more and certainly not for 50 pounds, which is the last time I noticed!

The leads to the spark plugs look brand new, the hoses I´m not sure about. It sounds as though the carb is getting clogged with rubbish somehow which I suppose isn´t so surprising given age etc... I´d love not to have to paz someone to fix the problem though as that was part of the point of getting her!

Are all of the things mentioned here OK for a novice to do (hoses, points, condensor etc.) with onlz the help of haynes and the internet?

Thanks again, looking forward to putting something back into the community and attending meets and stuff!

[skodanorman]

You should manage as a novice. I'd say the trickiest part was installing and gapping the points. Hoses are straight forward but a struggle and a strain. Goes without saying that the usual safety considerations should be taken when working underneath the car.

[Kieranzxt]

If the car restarts when allowed to cool, (ie, you go back and it fires striaght up), it is most probably the ignition coil dying when hot. You can check for a spark easily, but removing the king lead from the dizzy and resting it about 5mm away from the engine block. Turn on the ignition and flick the points open and shut, and you should see a fat spark jump the 5mm gap everytime the points open.

If its still no go, the fuel pump is housed on the drivers side (Off side) of the engine block. It is fitted with a gauze strainer that can become blocked. The stainer is in a small bowl that is held in place with a wire cage and a thumbwheel. The pump is also fitted with a manual hand priming lever, so you can remove the fuel pipe from the carb and operate the lever to check fuel delivery.

Nothing tricky or difficult at all really, these are basic cars (points ignition, carburettors, mechanical fuel pumps), with lots of space to work in.

[buffalox]

Replaced ignition coil (which did seem quite hot) but the problem remains...

There is a lovely White 120L 10 thousand miles 5-speed on ebay that I noticed (1.5-2K), and when I read the description he said something about how some garage somewhere had put the incorrect fuel pump on the car which he then had to rectify. I have noticed that the fuel pump on mine HAS been changed - could that be the problem?

[skodanorman]

Only if it is the wrong type. The Estelle fuel pump should be mounted on the right hand side of the engine block and have a small lever to manually pump the fuel should you ever need to.

If your car has an electric fuel pump fitted then it *could* be the problem.

[buffalox]

Hello all, I'm getting nowhere (literally!!) which is a bit frustrating. Could you have a look at the following pictures of the engine bay (in particular the fuel pump which has no lever) and tell me if something doesn't look right? Thanks!

[Kieranzxt]

That looks like a Favorit fuel pump. No major problem there, just doesnt have the manual priming lever.

What is it doing now when you try and start it?

Edited 23 January, 2012 by Kieranzxt

[hawkeracing]

If you want a working Estelle pump with the manual handle let me know I have at least 4 of the things...you can have one for postage cost.

[daverapid]

:yes: Replace points and condenser [less than a tenner]...if that doesn't fix it clean out jets in the carb.

[felicia16v]

that is a favorit pump and is higher pressure than the estelle one which may be causing overfuelling at lower rpms too. So I would sort that if you can and as said above by Dave new points and condensor and a good clean of the carb and jets should sort most running problems.

[buffalox]

[Just lost my whole post due to stupid connection, sorry for retyping an abbreviated version]

OK, so an epic midnight journey later and I'm back. 30 miles from Worthing to Portsmouth with an annoying diversion due to 1.2miles being shut at Andover

I managed to get started OK with combination of accelerator and choke as usual and was ticking over nicely before departure, but stalled at a roundabout after 10 minutes. Started again after a couple of minutes. As I was at the bottom of the hill I decided to take off using some choke and got to the top of the hill no problem. Drove OK in 4th most of the way on A27 to the diversion without slowing, but once I had to mess around in lower gears and revs the engine wasn't happy threatening to stall and with jerky/misfiring acceleration in 3rd and 4th at lowish revs. Had to use choke quite a bit to prevent stalling but finally got back - mostly in 3rd!

Hope I didn't damage the engine but I did try and minimise use of choke.

Condenser looks new (3rd pic) and points checked already. New leads, next thing to do is replace plugs (again?). As there no way to get up and running reliably? At least I'm back home now!

[skodanorman]

New points and condenser.

Even new ones can fail. I have fitted a brand new one before only for it to still run like poo. For the sake of purchase cost (a couple of quid) fit another new one.

I used to have 4 brand new ones in the glove box for such a situation.

[daverapid]

The fact that using the choke temporarily improves things suggests that there is muck in the carb blocking the jets.

[buffalox]

OK, so finally I had a day off where the sun was also shining so I set about trying to get my poor estelle to work!

I started it and it sort of faltered and cut out (as before). Cleaned the old carb - no change. Luckily I had already obtained a new carb (weber), and spent the whole day trying to do it right...

Got the old carb out, cleaned eveything up, put the Weber in. No problem so far except I was a bit confused about what to do with all the air hoses, so I just left them pointing in the air (maybe this was wrong?)

Started a little easier - seemed to run better. Got up to temp, but choke back in and seemed to still be going ok. Went for a spin round the block - brakes need a little attention after so long sitting...

Anyway, fuel was very low so I drove back into the driveway to pick up my wallet (and so if it would start again). Turned off, and wouldn't restart. As I'd parked on a slight incline and the guage was reading zero, thought I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and went to get some petrol in a can. Came back, put a bit in and it started again, but after a while cut out (carb not adjusted yet remember) so I left it for a while as it wouldn't start again (put rest of 5L petrol in too)

Came back, started after a few attempts and seemed to be running well. Got up to temp and so I set about guessing rpm (as no tacho) to set up carb. Twisted the screw as suggested (clockwise made revs increase, CC made them decrease) all the while keeping watch so it wouldn't stall. Temp was going up I noticed but still staying in green. Then twisted the mixture screw to increase revs (twisting couter clockwise as per instructions) and then unscrewing other screw again (again, as per instructions). Seemed to be going well when POOF - lots of steam, lots of water running down the driveway. Turned engine off and isolated battery!

So, the clip for the returning water pipe (connecting to engine) had rusted and given up tipping everything onto the driveway.

Am I just unlucky? Or was I not setting up the carb right? And what type of clip do I need now! Just one of those big screw tightening ones like I have on the fuel hose?

Photos to come...

Edited 26 August, 2012 by buffalox

[MontyPythonFan]

My Favorit with the same engine has all the hoses retained with the screw tightening Jubilee Clips, so they should be ok. Good luck with sorting it! I'm aquiring a Willow Green 120L next week  

[KenONeill]

When replacing hose clips, always use real Terry Jubilee clips.

Once you've got the engine running again, get it properly hot (about 10 miles drive) then set the idle speed to maximum by ear using the mixture screw.

Now back down the throttle stop screw until the engine stops running smoothly, then go back half a turn.

Now swing the distributor to get the idle speed back to maximum, and repeat the throttle stop adjustment above.

[The Robbo 86]

Is this the orange one that was on eBay? Glad it has gone to a good home.

*paging DaveRapid*

No the orange 105 that was on eBay is now myn

[buffalox]

So, it's looking a little better now...

But maybe a stupid question... what do I do with the two air hoses left over?

I'm guessing I can dismount the grey one completely, but the red one?

Edited 21 September, 2012 by buffalox

[KenONeill]

The grey one's a pre-heater hose that you've done away with by fitting the pancake filter, so yes that can go, but leave the plate on the exhaust manifold, because that acts as a heat shield.

The red one I'm not sure about; I suspect it's a breather hose, in which case best practice would be to redirect it into a catch can, or put a filter on the end of it (or on the stub in the rocker cover).

[hawkeracing]

Yes its the engine breather - it normally recirculates the engine crank case fumes back through the airfilter and into the engine. You need to route it into a catch tank with a longer piece of pipe, it will put out mist or possibly acrid fumes depending on how worn your engine is. On my set up I have it routed into the side part of the engine bay with an oil can to catch what comes out.

[buffalox]

Thanks for the replies! All going well, but on to the next issue (sigh)...

Any other ideas on why it won't restart when warm? Can't exactly go to the petrol station if once I turn it off I need to wait 20 minutes for it to cool down before starting again... Have already replaced the ignition coil with a used one - perhaps I need a new one?