Righty ho. I am looking for a new driving instruction car. The key criteria are reasonable comfort, exceptional fuel economy and looks that do not dissuade customers. I have thought about a Fabia Greenline, but reports from a relative of another Fabia owning instructor would indicate that it has put customers off, something the Mk1 did not suffer from.

So the short list after much consideration comes down to the VAG group derived Seat Ibiza SC Copa Ecomotive or the Kia Rio 2 1.1CRDI Ecomodynamics. Both are similar in size and layout, both look ok, both have comfortable enough seats and both are near the top of the class for fuel economy. The Seat has price on its side, being listed about the same as the Rio but with a decent chunk off the price via a promotion until the end of March. The Kia has build / trim quality and superior NVH on its side.

Normally, I have a strong reasoning for the car I want to teach in (Fabia VRS because it was ******* excellent, Mini because it was economical and attractive to customers). I would go another Mini, but to get into the spec I want will cost too much and I want to make a reduction on my fuel bills for the next three years.

So anyone know the pros and cons of either car? How are people finding the 1.2L Fabia Greenline economy in real world terms? Any input appreciated!

Chris

I remember this last time around Chris, when you were looking at the Mini! How time flies

I would say quite a lot of this comes down to customer perception again. Kia has caught my attention, but I wonder what the public's view of them is?

Don't really like the look of the Rio and haven't driven one - so on that basis I'd say go for the Seat

Hyundai I10, I20 or small Kia (can't spell it lol) or fiat 500. Trouble with learners is that if a car looks big it puts them off. I know when I was learning I chose the guy with the micra over the sunny as it looked easier to drive. My Bro got a instructor with a 306 he changed straight away claiming the car was too big and got one with a swift instead. There's one instructor near me with a I10 for instructing in and a golf gti for his own use.

My bro is starting to learn again and is lookin for an instructor with a 500 cos apparently they look good lol

My sister has an I20- by all accounts it's not a bad car at all. I like it. inoffensive, white goods motoring.

The Fabia greenline would not be the car to use as an instructors car the gearing is very long and very different to a standard car so your pupils might find it difficult to adapt. Around town you would only use 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The Ibiza may well be the same, and have the same problem.

When I was taught to drive, it was 2nd gear for junctions, small roundabout, 3rd for large roundabouts etc This all goes out the window with the some of the green cars and it could be down to 1st for some corners, and 2nd for big roundabouts which will confuse pupils, especially if they also drive another more normal car.

My sister has an I20- by all accounts it's not a bad car at all. I like it. inoffensive, white goods motoring.

Same here. Young Ree has got one. 40+ mpg 'round town, and even though it's only the 1.1, it's a very pleasant drive, especially the steering i found.

i10's are ok too, but seems to be an ingoing problem with juddering clutches.

5 year warranty, but don't know if that'll be applicable to a school of motoring car?

I'll echo the thoughts of others in here too. Keep it smallish whatever you decide on. Bigish would put potential students off imo

I`v never understood that. I was always told learn to drive in a reasonable sized car (in my case a focus MK2) so when it comes to driving something bigger your fairly capable & confident. Me and my Mrs went to look at a focus ST a few months back, she didnt want to test drive it, was far too big she said, until i reminded her what she past her test in (same car but diesel) hey presto she was off like a pig in ****. Its the same at work, Learner bus is a ex-greenline coach, near enough the biggest regular vehicle in the fleet, so when you pass and get in a small bus its easy and a larger one your prepared for the size.

Anyway, back OT, i`d go for the seat. The new ibiza`s are one of the few seats I like inside as well as out, and since you`ll be spending alot of time in it that makes more sense to me.

Chris, having spoken at a meet previously when you were originally looking, a though occurred specially given the miles & the costs.

As a possible deal maker have you compared the servicing costs over the expected milage you will be doing ?

Whilest a few pound difference at this point in time might not seem to make a great deal of difference, who know what % price rise there will be in consecutive years ahead, specially the cost of oil.

How did your survey on showing pictures of both cars to current customers go ?

Personaly if you are after something with looks that won't put learners off I think the Rio might just have the edge...

However, like a lot of new cars (Fiesta especially) it seems very high at the back with a high set rear windo so I'd imagine reversing it will be pretty hard for a learner...

Is the Ibiza really a good idea for a learner car?

Is it not fitted with a DPF?

Phil

How soon do you need it?

Got any thoughts on the Up!/Citygo?

Some other stuff to consider...

The Ibiza has a deeply shielded speedo so you cannot see it from the passenger seat (could be solved with one of those digital speedo boxes on the passenger dash top) Also suffers from poor visibility at the rear quarters. OK for normal drivers but awkward for learners.

Other than this, a nice car which is easy to drive and about the right size.

The Hyundai i10 is smaller but has great all round visibility and again very easy to drive.

The problem with thei10 as an instructor car is where the duals are fitted. The floor pan metal is very thin and the duals mountings have been known to stress fracture the floor pan. Expensive to repair and not covered by warranty.

Clutch judder has already been mentioned.

Not sure if the i20 has the same problem but if not would make a better choice.

Fiat 500 is a nice little car for a new driver but as a learner car it is not so good.

Even a short legged driver makes the room in the back unusable for an adult. Very uncomfortable if you want to accompany a test, which is encouraged now. You have to sit with both legs across the rear seat!

I suppose the next step is Ford and the Fiesta?

Or Vauxhall and a Corsa?

Not sure which way I would go but I might have a serious look at the Citygo but you want a car now, not in months?

Looking at the pics i'm guessing the size is about Pug 107/Citroen C1 ?

Oh choice, choices!

edit as i forgot about VAG cars.

as said below, VW polo or fox??

the Fox might be a good one? small but well put together.

i know someone with the new polo. as that annoying advert says..sounds like a golf. ARG! i thought it was a golf when i first saw it because it seems to have grown a bit from the previous version.

Before I got the Roomster I was seriously thinking about the Polo. It has a far better view out of the back that the Seat but still has the good build quality. The 500 is a bit on the small side for the job, given that SE's (or whatever they are called these days) like a bit of room when they are carrying out a check test something larger might put them in a better frame of mind. There are times when you sit in on a test so you need to be comfortable then. On occasion I have had parents sitting in on a lesson, handy for them to see what they need to do during private practice.

I'd always go for a 4 door car, it's much easier. What about a Picanto?

I went for the Roomster because if I'm doing Driver Alertness courses I always have at least 2 clients in the car, sometimes 3. The extra leg room is a real bonus. I don't do many learners these days, but they find it easy enough. The large rear side windows certainly make reversing more straightforward.

Rob.

I don't do many learners these days, but they find it easy enough. The large rear side windows certainly make reversing more straightforward.

Rob.

I think you're teaching them how to reverse wrong then... you have to go backwards not forwards when reversing

Is the Ibiza really a good idea for a learner car?

Is it not fitted with a DPF?

Phil

DPF's! Aggghhhhhh! :(

Hadn't thought of that, but really not going to be suitable for constant stop start motoring. :no:

Dare say the salesman wouldn't mention that however.

BSM seem to have gone back to the Corsa from the 500 now, and I've seen a few new Fiestas on the AA fleet, presumably replacing the Focus?

Edited 10 February, 201214 yr by Mr Ree

I'd have the Kia.

From the clients point of view . . . . anything with half decent driving position, all-round visibility and an un-obstructed use of the major controls.

But as most cars seem to be designed for double jointed scoliotic dwarfs gifted with the ability to see round corners and capable of removing refraction and distortion from canted windscreens, you might well have your work cut out.

As long as it looks nice on the outside and has got the highest European crash-test certification:giggle:

Nick

Edited 10 February, 201214 yr by Clunkclick

What about a Polo or a Fox (if they're still available) or a Ford Ka?

I'd have the Kia.

Agreed. The Seat really isn't suitable as a driving school car so by default it has to be the Kia.

Oh and I know somebody that had a new Ka as a driving school car. It was gutless as anything and was very easy to stall with just using the clutch. After a few trips to the dealer to try and sort this out and a few warning lights later he got rid of it!

Phil

My wife has a licence but has not driven for years. She's recently had half a dozen refressher lessons, the instructor had a DSG Ibiza, she really liked the car. She's the sort who when asked what sort of car something is, she'll reply with the colour. Ibiza should be safe from an image point of view.

...and was very easy to stall with just using the clutch...

A very good point indeed - I remember my wife test driving a Fabia estate years ago bvefore we bought one and she stalled it about 4 times on major ring road roundabout - not nice!

I assume this is one of the reasons why quite a few learner cars are diesel these days - pretty much unstallable???

The rio 1.1 crdi currently has an unspecified lead time. Some members of the Kia owners club have ordered back in September and still have no date. Kia uk have been on the forum and admitted that there will be an 'update' sometime in march regarding when they might see them!

Something to think about...

I remember this last time around Chris, when you were looking at the Mini! How time flies

I would say quite a lot of this comes down to customer perception again. Kia has caught my attention, but I wonder what the public's view of them is?

Don't really like the look of the Rio and haven't driven one - so on that basis I'd say go for the Seat

Yeah, time flies, 3 1/2 years and 147000 miles later and I am looking for a new ride.

Hyundai I10, I20 or small Kia (can't spell it lol) or fiat 500. Trouble with learners is that if a car looks big it puts them off. I know when I was learning I chose the guy with the micra over the sunny as it looked easier to drive. My Bro got a instructor with a 306 he changed straight away claiming the car was too big and got one with a swift instead. There's one instructor near me with a I10 for instructing in and a golf gti for his own use.

My bro is starting to learn again and is lookin for an instructor with a 500 cos apparently they look good lol

Believe it or not, the i10 is too small to get comfortable in and will use a shed load more fuel over the three year ownership. Same for Fiat 500. To put some numbers on it, Fiat 500 1.3 Diesel will use £4000 more in fuel than the Ibiza or Rio and the i10 a whopping £6000 more. Petrol is out, especially small petrol as the engines do not tolerate high miles as well as diesels do. Ibiza and Rio are both small.

My sister has an I20- by all accounts it's not a bad car at all. I like it. inoffensive, white goods motoring.

Personally not keen on looks or interior, fuel economy is not as good as the shortlisted 2 and dealer could not even be bothered to organise a test drive for me.

The Fabia greenline would not be the car to use as an instructors car the gearing is very long and very different to a standard car so your pupils might find it difficult to adapt. Around town you would only use 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The Ibiza may well be the same, and have the same problem.

When I was taught to drive, it was 2nd gear for junctions, small roundabout, 3rd for large roundabouts etc This all goes out the window with the some of the green cars and it could be down to 1st for some corners, and 2nd for big roundabouts which will confuse pupils, especially if they also drive another more normal car.

I have driven the Ibiza and the gearing is very similar to the Mini, the Fabia VRS before it and in the first 3, shorter than the Fiesta 1.4I had before that. I sort of get the hump when I see instructors teaching set piece gears for various junctions. I always teach "get the speed right for the situation and the gear right for the speed". When I get pupils who have not been taught this, they often end up labouring the car in 2nd out of a side road where no car would be responsive in 2nd, or as many instructors teach, 2nd for roundabouts, which often results in the pupil still slowing down when they should be speeding up. The only car where it would appear that tall gearing is an issue is the Fiesta Econetic. Apparently it is difficult for even an experienced driver to get one off the line. As no dealer has got me a test drive in one, I shall not be buying one.

5 year warranty, but don't know if that'll be applicable to a school of motoring car?

The Hyundai warranty has a specific clause stating driving instructors are covered. Good ploy, shame they are not so good at organising test drives.

I`v never understood that. I was always told learn to drive in a reasonable sized car (in my case a focus MK2) so when it comes to driving something bigger your fairly capable & confident. Me and my Mrs went to look at a focus ST a few months back, she didnt want to test drive it, was far too big she said, until i reminded her what she past her test in (same car but diesel) hey presto she was off like a pig in ****. Its the same at work, Learner bus is a ex-greenline coach, near enough the biggest regular vehicle in the fleet, so when you pass and get in a small bus its easy and a larger one your prepared for the size.

Anyway, back OT, i`d go for the seat. The new ibiza`s are one of the few seats I like inside as well as out, and since you`ll be spending alot of time in it that makes more sense to me.

Have to agree. Should be able to learn in anything. Have to say that although the Seat is nice inside, the finish is a long way down on the Rio.

Chris, having spoken at a meet previously when you were originally looking, a though occurred specially given the miles & the costs.

As a possible deal maker have you compared the servicing costs over the expected milage you will be doing ?

Whilest a few pound difference at this point in time might not seem to make a great deal of difference, who know what % price rise there will be in consecutive years ahead, specially the cost of oil.

How did your survey on showing pictures of both cars to current customers go ?

Yeah, servicing cost is factored into the reckoning from day 1. Seat and Kia both work out around £700 a year, but by buying a plan in advance, I can pull that down a little. Customer survey was interesting. The Rio, Ibiza and Fiesta where similarly popular, more people liked the Mini than any of the others, the Fabia did not fare well in the poll at all. All shown without name, so no one knew the makes / models. Shame as the Skoda product would be at the top of my list otherwise. The service I had last time I owned one easily makes it a good idea.

Personaly if you are after something with looks that won't put learners off I think the Rio might just have the edge...

However, like a lot of new cars (Fiesta especially) it seems very high at the back with a high set rear windo so I'd imagine reversing it will be pretty hard for a learner...

Seating positions are also very high, so rear visibility, although poor by 3 box standards, is perfectly manageable for shorter pupils.

Is the Ibiza really a good idea for a learner car?

Is it not fitted with a DPF?

Phil

It is, as are all new diesel cars. Had no issues with the one in the Mini yet. Needed a £22 bottle of regen additive at about 100,000 miles and that is it. My driving patterns and range over which I teach mean that the car will get a proper chance to regen when it needs to.

How soon do you need it?

Got any thoughts on the Up!/Citygo?

Ordering next week. I really like the whole idea of the Citygo, I reckon it will be an excellent car, but petrol engines are simply not efficient enough and don't handle the high mileage well enough. On paper, the fuel figures make sense, but in the real world, things are different. For instruction use, I get about 9% less economy than the stated urban cycle with a diesel. Freinds who use petrol get about 25% less. Also, needs to be comfortable and quiet. The Rio has very good NVH control and both it and the Seat are places with enough ride and interior comfort to be in for 12 hours a day.

Split into 2 replies as the forum would not let me quote all the replies at once...

Some other stuff to consider...

The Ibiza has a deeply shielded speedo so you cannot see it from the passenger seat (could be solved with one of those digital speedo boxes on the passenger dash top) Also suffers from poor visibility at the rear quarters. OK for normal drivers but awkward for learners.

Other than this, a nice car which is easy to drive and about the right size.

The Hyundai i10 is smaller but has great all round visibility and again very easy to drive.

The problem with thei10 as an instructor car is where the duals are fitted. The floor pan metal is very thin and the duals mountings have been known to stress fracture the floor pan. Expensive to repair and not covered by warranty.

Clutch judder has already been mentioned.

Not sure if the i20 has the same problem but if not would make a better choice.

Fiat 500 is a nice little car for a new driver but as a learner car it is not so good.

Even a short legged driver makes the room in the back unusable for an adult. Very uncomfortable if you want to accompany a test, which is encouraged now. You have to sit with both legs across the rear seat!

I suppose the next step is Ford and the Fiesta?

Or Vauxhall and a Corsa?

Not sure which way I would go but I might have a serious look at the Citygo but you want a car now, not in months?

Looking at the pics i'm guessing the size is about Pug 107/Citroen C1 ?

Oh choice, choices!

edit as i forgot about VAG cars.

as said below, VW polo or fox??

the Fox might be a good one? small but well put together.

i know someone with the new polo. as that annoying advert says..sounds like a golf. ARG! i thought it was a golf when i first saw it because it seems to have grown a bit from the previous version.

Looking to drop my fuel consumption by £1000 a year, so nothing petrol will cut it. i10 is too small, Fox too tinny and Polo gets pricey with reliability ratings below Seat. Vauxhall out as the Eco version of the Corsa is not as good as the Mini I have now on Fuel. Fiesta is, but long first gear. Citygo, though nice, is not a place to spend 12 hours in one go. Both the Ibiza and the Rio have recessed speedo, both companies can supply a solution.

Before I got the Roomster I was seriously thinking about the Polo. It has a far better view out of the back that the Seat but still has the good build quality. The 500 is a bit on the small side for the job, given that SE's (or whatever they are called these days) like a bit of room when they are carrying out a check test something larger might put them in a better frame of mind. There are times when you sit in on a test so you need to be comfortable then. On occasion I have had parents sitting in on a lesson, handy for them to see what they need to do during private practice.

I'd always go for a 4 door car, it's much easier. What about a Picanto?

I went for the Roomster because if I'm doing Driver Alertness courses I always have at least 2 clients in the car, sometimes 3. The extra leg room is a real bonus. I don't do many learners these days, but they find it easy enough. The large rear side windows certainly make reversing more straightforward.

Rob.

Roomster is not really an option. Key criteria is fuel use. I have been doing this job 10 years now and lesson prices are pretty much the same as they where when I started. Fuel on the other hand is double and cost of basic cars is well up too. The eco models I am looking at will be more than the VRS was when I bought it 6 years ago.

DPF's! Aggghhhhhh! :(

Hadn't thought of that, but really not going to be suitable for constant stop start motoring. :no:

Dare say the salesman wouldn't mention that however.

BSM seem to have gone back to the Corsa from the 500 now, and I've seen a few new Fiestas on the AA fleet, presumably replacing the Focus?

As above WRT DPF, if it is a diesel, it is going to have one. Got to be more economic than Fiesta or Corsa too.

I'd have the Kia.

I am leaning towards it, but the price is higher than the Ibiza. Have to see how it all shakes out in haggling.

From the clients point of view . . . . anything with half decent driving position, all-round visibility and an un-obstructed use of the major controls.

But as most cars seem to be designed for double jointed scoliotic dwarfs gifted with the ability to see round corners and capable of removing refraction and distortion from canted windscreens, you might well have your work cut out.

As long as it looks nice on the outside and has got the highest European crash-test certification:giggle:

Nick

The range of driving positions in both my shortlisted cars is excellent and should suit drivers of all sizes well. All round visibility went out with roll over protection.

What about a Polo or a Fox (if they're still available) or a Ford Ka?

Believe it or not, the Ka in its most economical form, would use over £4000 more in fuel over three years than either on the shortlist.

Agreed. The Seat really isn't suitable as a driving school car so by default it has to be the Kia.

Oh and I know somebody that had a new Ka as a driving school car. It was gutless as anything and was very easy to stall with just using the clutch. After a few trips to the dealer to try and sort this out and a few warning lights later he got rid of it!

Phil

Cannot see why the Seat is not suitable. Rear visibility is as good as most other cars in the segment.

My wife has a licence but has not driven for years. She's recently had half a dozen refressher lessons, the instructor had a DSG Ibiza, she really liked the car. She's the sort who when asked what sort of car something is, she'll reply with the colour. Ibiza should be safe from an image point of view.

Polling pupils confirms this.

A very good point indeed - I remember my wife test driving a Fabia estate years ago bvefore we bought one and she stalled it about 4 times on major ring road roundabout - not nice!

I assume this is one of the reasons why quite a few learner cars are diesel these days - pretty much unstallable???

You'd think so wouldn't you

The rio 1.1 crdi currently has an unspecified lead time. Some members of the Kia owners club have ordered back in September and still have no date. Kia uk have been on the forum and admitted that there will be an 'update' sometime in march regarding when they might see them!

Something to think about...

Yeah, Kia 1 Ecodynamics is not happening yet. It has a longer gear set than the other models in the range. Dealer reckons April delivery for a Rio 1 Air or Rio 2 ecodynamics.

Many thanks for the input folks. Normally, when I buy a car, I know just what I want and why, but this time, it is a difficult decision.

Chris

I don't suppose you have considered a Kia Cee'd? I know it's a bit bigger but a few driving schools around here use them.