Also what about nurses, there's a difficult job with poor pay.

Absolubtly.

They have to deal with life and death every day and not only might kill people, but have to live with the trauma of patients death each day.

As for entitled to. I'm sorry, you obviously fail to understand how a free market economy works.

Obviously I'm nowhere near clever enough to participate in this discussion with guys like you present.

I've had my say. I'm off to revise my 44 years of thickness and get educated to higher standards

Obviously I'm nowhere near clever enough to participate in this discussion with guys like you present.

I've had my say. I'm off to revise my 44 years of thickness and get educated to higher standards

Don't be an .....

I'm not saying that.

I've a lot of time for people who've learnt on the job, they are usually excellent and there is rarely a substitute for hands on experience.

However, that doesn't entitle those people to ask for a bucket load of cash and keep asking time after time, regardless of the conditions at the time.

If you want to explain how you think it's an entitlement, then please do.

Edited 19 April, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

Don't be an .....

I'm not saying that.

I've a lot of time for people who've learnt on the job, they are usually excellent and there is rarely a substitute for hands on experience.

However, that doesn't entitle those people to ask for a bucket load of cash and keep asking time after time, regardless of the conditions at the time.

If you want to explain how you think it's an entitlement, then please do.

You really are affected by this aren't you ? You're starting to sound like Arthur Scargill. This is an open forum with guys who have their own opinions. Who are you to suppress them ? Fair enough, have your say, but don't try and talk down to others who have theirs because that's what it sounds like to me.

Chill out ! :think:

You really are affected by this aren't you ? You're starting to sound like Arthur Scargill. This is an open forum with guys who have their own opinions. Who are you to suppress them ? Fair enough, have your say, but don't try and talk down to others who have theirs because that's what it sounds like to me.

Chill out ! :think:

Not at all.

I just don't like people putting words in my mouth.

I didn't make any comment about your education at all, hence my comment.

As for letting others have an opinion, fine with that, but if people are going to say I've blue thatcherite blood running through me (which I don't btw) then I'm going to point out the flaws I see.

You're always going to have a clash, when you get some 'trade union communists' and some people who believe in free market economics (or Thatcherites in the words of a previous poster) disagreeing on a point. I'd say discussing, but we know it's not really a discussion.

Edited 19 April, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

Not at all.

I just don't like people putting words in my mouth.

I didn't make any comment about your education at all, hence my comment.

As for letting others have an opinion, fine with that, but if people are going to say I've blue thatcherite blood running through me (which I don't btw) then I'm going to point out the flaws I see.

You're always going to have a clash, when you get some 'trade union communists' and some people who believe in free market economics (or Thatcherites in the words of a previous poster) disagreeing on a point. I'd say discussing, but we know it's not really a discussion.

Fair comment

Why the term "trade union communists" when I know plenty of non-socialist people who are members of a trade union?

In fact there political leanings include Tory, Plaid, and even English Nationalist!

Why the term "trade union communists" when I know plenty of non-socialist people who are members of a trade union?

In fact there political leanings include Tory, Plaid, and even English Nationalist!

It was meant tongue in cheek and as a parallel to any free market person being a Thatcherite.

I don't think everyone in a trade union is a commie. Far from it actually, although there are a few out there who do seem up to "fight the fight comrade". They're also the ones that seem to be at every picket ever and every protest, just because there is a protest on.

I'd say they're probably a very small minority of trade union members.

For what it's worth, I think trade unions are all fine and don't mind the concept at all.

Sticking together is a good way to defend your rights.

What gets me however is that there are some that think a pay rise on an already good wage, in a time when most people have seen no increase in years and more likely a cut, is more than a bit rich.

Edited 19 April, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

Good for you and the unions mate.

I've been there with the jobs/contracts going to other suppliers, including surviving the job losses afterwards.

That's why a company has to adapt and stay competitive.

It's one of those key principles of free market economics.

Now remind me why everyone in the IT industry is faced with offshoring and inshoring.

Oh yes, that will because the customer wants it all cheaper so they get it.

Ditto with most industries.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

If the tanker drivers think they're hard up, then they know they have options.

Just watch out for other companies bidding for their contracts.

There isn't some endless pot of gold with a fat lepricorn (well Gordon Brown so sorry to the Irish) sat at the end of the rainbow to hand it out. If things get too expensive, then companies and people look elsewhere.

We do it in Europe as well as it happening the other way around.

Every car driver drives around with >30L of the stuff every day.

Ok so tanker drivers have a lot of it in a vehicle designed for that and have to be careful, but still.

I don't see our boys and girls in the army/navy/RAF paid £45k, plus a huge pension pot, plus all the extras and they get flipping shot at. How many military folk have died recently and how many tanker drivers?

What about other industries where peoples lives are at risk, probably far more than a tanker driver?

I'd actually be happy for the government to break up this effective cartel using the laws against cartels.

This group of 7 companies are effectively breaking competition, because there isn't any.

There are plenty of companies that would be hungry for the work if they could get in and I don't think it's beyond the whit of man to train up new drivers to pipe fuel.

Start them on diesel first perhaps

Oh and to mdon.

Seriously they're losing their houses on £45k are they?

Sounds like they over stretched themselves then doesn't it!

I house shared for years so that I could afford to live without going into massive debt.

I now rent a small house nearer to my job and share it with my partner.

We don't have a large house, with a lot of luxuries.

£45k a year * 4 is £180k, plus a 10% deposit, is a £200k house.

You can buy plenty of nice enough houses in the regions for £200k and that's just one persons wages.

Even if £180k mortgage meant paying back £250k, then that's 10k a year, or just under a grand a month repayments.

The 2012/13 tax calculator works that out at £2,739.89 per month after tax and NI. (BTW the tax changes make them £14 better off)

So are you really saying another £1500 after the mortgage and bills isn't enough to live off.

If you are, then you need a reality check, as I know many people myself included who live off far less than this.

That also assumes their wife (if married) doesn't work.

Don't be stupid, they aren't paid £45k basic salary, I know someone who used to be a tanker driver and they are no where near that. Btw I work with several ex service personnel who even as nco's made £40k plus a year on a very nice pension now at the age of 41, so that's that stupid argument blown out of the water.

My comment regarding loosing their houses is in response to people hoping they are paid off, they could be paid £300k per year but if they lost their jobs they still wouldn't be able to pay their mortgages as money doesn't grow on trees.

Since this forum is full of people who live by "I'm alright jack" (yourself included) why not put fuel prices up to £2.50 per litre or more, I could afford that no problem and still have my standard of living I have now, that would pay all the conditions they ask for. This won't happen however as I know several families would struggle and as a society we should consider them, the world doesn't revolve around you.

Edited 19 April, 201214 yr by mdon

How will the union benefit?

By portraying themselves in a strong arm way to keep membership a subs up.

We really need to get real in this country. We, and in fact many other countries, are faced with massive debt caused by failure on past govt. policies and their inability (or unwillingness) to control credit. Many individuals and businesses must share the blame for taking on unrealistic debt which they plainly could not afford to repay.

How do we get out of this - spending reductions and tight cost control is the only way to pay off the debts.

I like may others have shared part of the pain through wage reductions, pension squeeze and a reducing standard of living. We all need to get real and accept that there can be no gain without pain.

Many many people and sectors are saying " but you can't cut us" - well if we listened to you all we would get no where. Unfortunately part of the saving may mean no increase in working condition, or safety standards, or better hospital care, or what ever. And unfortunately there will be individuals that will suffer, may not get the treatment they need or, in the case of tanker drivers, many run a slightly higher risk of a disastrous accident.

I don't like it, I hope to god it doesn't put me or mine, or you or yours at risk - but I accept that there is no option but to "save" our way out of the financial disaster zone that the western world is in.

And, no, whoever you are that is about to reply - you are not a special case.

Edited 20 April, 201214 yr by slider

I often think people are just plain Jealous of others so are always trying to pull them down.

Bankers are they worth their wages + Bonus

Tube Drivers are they worth their wage

Train Drivers

Bus Drivers

Coal Miners

and everyother worker in this country,

or is it just who you think shouldn't earn as much as you, I mean you might have schooled for 5 years for your position, and some dum ass earns more. It was your career choice, but because you have a brain and don't do physical only mental don't mean your better.

There is no such thing as entitlement.

Slightly OT, but tell that to the UB40's and those who are bleating about child benefit.

We're becoming more like the french every day thanks to the unions.

No, we haven't learnt how to shrug our shoulders in the right way!!

Slightly OT, but tell that to the UB40's and those who are bleating about child benefit.

They should all lose it too IMHO.

They complain about people who take benefits (the poor), then take them themselves even though they earn well above the minimum you need to just survive. There is no reason for them to get so much in CB. So what if the child can't go on a skiing holiday this year.

Should others be paying for that? No! (Well I don't think so anyway)

By the way, didn't it used to be about £10 a week or month, for child 1 and less for others?

Also to those on the thread who think I am complaining because others get paid more.

Afraid not, I'm complaining because, as pointed out before, they think they can fly in the face of everyone else cutting back.

I've had to cut back and certainly make changes to how I live.

I also didn't borrow amounts it was obvious I couldn't afford.

At the end of the day, the uk is a free market economy, so that's how business will work, regardless of what others think.

Edited 19 April, 201214 yr by cheezemonkhai

We are nothing like the French, for one we would not have the high fuel prices we have now, we would have had blockades, and ABU QATADA would not be costing me money Legal Aid.

The French have very comparable fuel prices to us, even with the very favourable euro exchange rate at the moment. Petrol in France is currently £1.48 per litre, whilst Diesel is a lot cheaper than here at £1.33 a litre because the French government reduced taxation on diesel to keep the lorry drivers happy. We have the 8th most expensive petrol in the EU, but the 2nd most expensive diesel.

http://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/euro-fuel-prices

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/which-country-has-the-most-expensive-petrol-in-the-world.html

These price tables are so often so wrong & misleading.

If Scotland has already got petrol that goes from £1.39.7 a litre to £1.66.9,

then how far out might they be from Norway's highest prices.

(by the way, where was Norway on that other link?)

george

Edited 20 April, 201214 yr by sk4gw

My comment regarding loosing their houses is in response to people hoping they are paid off, they could be paid £300k per year but if they lost their jobs they still wouldn't be able to pay their mortgages as money doesn't grow on trees.

If they're paid £300k a year and would lose their house, then they need to control their spending.

At 300k, even a very nice house would be fully paid off in a couple of years.

In fact, they could save a bit for a couple of years and buy a nice house, outright in cash.

There comes a point when you can't blame everyone else for your own lack of responsibility.

Even if somebody offers it to you, it's still up to you to decide if you can really afford a mortgage for the next 25 years.

If you can't then you say no, you don't *have* to say yes.