Hi,

First post on the forums, only wish it was with a better question.

I took delivery of a 10 plate Skoda Octavia 2.0T VRS today. I had part-exchanged my old car and put some money towards the Skoda.

Before conducting the deal, I hpi checked the car etc. Asked the dealer all the usual questions about previous history and was told everything was fine, no major issues.

Dealer delivered the car to my door today and left the spare key and service history/folder in the car for me to collect when I checked the car after he left.

Took the spare key and folder upstairs to check everything over. Thought I would check to see when it was due a service and then my heart sank. Last month the Octavia had to have a new engine fitted to it (The dealer never mentioned this when I asked about the car).

Livid about this, I phoned the Skoda dealer (Not the dealer who sold the car I may add) who fitted the engine to see why it required this work. The dealer informed me that the work was required because the spark plugs kept sooting up and were causing the engine to misfire. The spark plugs had been changed over numerous times to no avail. Skoda therefor said the only fix was a new engine.

I asked the dealer to check if it was a new or refurb engine that was fitted to the car. Upon checking it was apparently an exchange engine (Refurb). Thanking the dealer for his honesty I put the phone down.

Checking the service book again, at the delivery inspection the check engine light was on when the car was delivered to the dealer, before the orginal owner even took delivery. This suggests to me that the original engine had issues before it even left the factory. 20,000 miles later they only offered a refurb unit to the original owner when in my opinion it should have been a brand new unit as these issues were obviously present when the car was brand new.

I wouldn't have bought this Octavia VRS if I had known that there had been an exchange unit engine put into it, does anyone know if I have grounds to reject the car on this basis? I'm that annoyed about it, I've not even driven the car at all yet.

Any help/advice on this matter would of course be appreciated.

Cheers,

Kev

Refuse it... they have mislead you

Like you said you would not have bought it, if you had known!

You have powerful rights in the sale of goods act!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Skoda exchange parts. On items such as engines only exchange units will be available,they'll be as good as a brand new engine and they'll have the same warranty as a new part.

There are plenty of exchange parts available from Skoda, steering sensors, alternators, engines, gear boxes and they are identified by their part number ending in a X.

As long as the engine was purchased from Skoda and fitted by one of their approved repairers and is functioning as it should, I can't see it as being a cause for concern.

You do, although if skoda uk supplied the engine it'll be fine.

Most direct injection petrol engines can have soot issues. I'd be after money off from the dealer and if you got an inspection then money back on that for not spotting the differing engine code.

When you say new engine did it include a new turbo?

Hi Cheezemonkhai,

I am unsure if the recon engine came with its own turbo or if the turbo from the cars original engine was reused.

Fordfan - I'm not disputing that the Skoda exchange parts are not good quality. Its just I can't be sure how many miles my recon engine has done and what caused its initial failure to be sent back. I mean that issue could rear its ugly head again when the warranty is up in 9 months time. So my millage my actually be higher than is stated by the car now.

PC1212 - I'm trying to weigh up my options here mate. I'm seriously wanting rid of the car and I've only driven it from where it was parked into my garage, its not moved since I've found out about this recon engine. Seriously wanting rid of it now.

If it's a refurbed engine from Skoda then it would be basically 'as new'. Why didn't you check the history when you went to inspect the car/get a P/X value on yours?

Reconditioned engine or not, you didn't buy it off a dodgy backstreet garage.

You pay a premium for buying an approved used car from a Skoda main dealer.

They should have told you that the vehicle wasn't fitted with the original engine.

The same reasons that you no longer want the vehicle are the same reasons that make this particular vRS less attractive and therefore less valuable.

Ring the dealer, reject the vehicle and ask for a full refund.

By the same token, we know there are 'lemons' from the factory out there. I would rather have bought one with the engine swapped out than still with the original problematic engine in. As said though OP should have been told but then that's why you ask to see the service history before buying a car. It's was obviously all documented in there and not hidden.

We don't know that the OP physically viewed the vehicle before buying it.

If this was the case then the dealer should have volunteered the information over the phone.

Buying off a non-franshied dealer? Buying private? Then yes, it's worth making the extra effort to fully check the car out before handing over your money.

Buying from a Skoda dealer? Yes, be cautious but rest assured that they'll be as open and honest as possible about the vehicle and its history, especially if they themselves are aware that the buyer hasn't been able to view the vehicle.

This is exactly what the extra premium you pay to a franchised dealer gets you. Reassurance.

A replacement engine devalues the car. The dealer knew about it and failed to pass on this extremely important information.

I too would be angry and annoyed, but if I hadn't been able to view the car or paperwork first then I'd be prepared to share some of the blame.

Despite this a full refund should be made available if the OP decides he now no longer wants this particular car.

I'm assuming he saw it beforehand as he got a P/X value on his old car. Would a dealer give a value without seeing the car in the flesh?.

A lawyer would answer your questions - all you will get here are opinions. Valuable as they may be.

However,

I bought a Skoda Approved Used Skoda and it came with a 30 day return warranty. (IIRC 1000 miles or 30 days?)

This is very typical - Mercedes do the same and I successfully returned it for my money back.

Under the Skoda scheme you can ask the dealer to take it back and give you a replacement from the Skoda UK stocks of used cars. It might not be as satisfying as your money back but it might be easier for the dealer to do without going to bat in a court.

Just a thought.

Are you 100% sure it was a used/reconditioned engine? I find this very surprising. I would have expected such a young vehicle, still under manufacturers warranty to have had a new (ie box fresh) engine. I find it hard to believe that skoda uk would have had a supply of reconditioned engines available and the exact spec for your vehicle.. I know of two petrol vrs's that have had engine issues under warranty and both got new (new) engines. I'd double check this with skoda uk before you decide what your'e doing.

Hatchy - The VRS was seen on a SEAT dealers website. I used to own a 2.0 Tsi Facelift 2009/59 plate SEAT Leon FR. I thought with the Octavaia having the bigger boot as I needed more space then it would be ideal. I asked all the usual questions, admittedly I didn't ask if it had required a new engine as its not something I've ever suffered buying cars previously from main dealers. Hpi checked the car and everything came up fine etc.

I did indeed get a part exchange value for my car by supplying high res photos to the dealer and giving all relavent info to him. He came back with a price of £9500 for a 15,600 miles full SEAT main dealer service history from my 2.0 Tsi FR which was in Candy White. He had the Skoda Octavia VRS up for £11,500. I asked about service history on the Skoda and or any issues at all with the car. Dealer said it had full main dealer Skoda History and only thing was a scuffed alloy wheel which would be fixed prior to delivery. No mention of this Skoda main dealer history including a reconditioned engine only last month.

Since then the previous owner has pretty much got the recon engine and traded the Octavia quickly. The dealer I purchased from only had it 2 weeks. I certainly didn't expect a 10 plate Octavia VRS to have a reconditioned engine from a main dealer, and if so, I should have been told this vital information before I agreed to the part-exchange. Had I known, I would have kept my FR and not bothered with that specific VRS. I feel in the circumstances I did everything I possibly could do via the telephone etc until I physically saw the service book left in the car, which was when I found out about this cars history.

Yes hatchy, the dealer did indeed give a part-exchange value without seeing my car, which incidently was in A1 conditon on its original engine with no hidden history. Dealer said he was looking for good SEAT stock as my 2.0 Tsi FR was actually quite rare. Most now are diesel 170 Bhp CR FR's.

Silver1011 - I didn't buy from a Skoda main dealer mate. I bought from a SEAT main dealer, which should still count as they are all VAG group companies after all.

You are right, the dealer should have been upfront about the issue, as it would be obvious the minute I clapped eyes on the service book, I would find this information out. I feel in the circumstances I've done all I can to try and avoid this sort of thing happening. SEAT main dealer or not, the information wasn't forthcomming and I don't think the price even reflects the fact it has a recondtioned engine. I bought the car as it only had 21,000 miles or thereabouts on it. I did see another 40,000 miles example with sat nav and parking sensors etc from a different dealer, but the lower miles on the one I ended up with swayed me.

I certainly don't feel reassured that the car will hold its value or prove reliable now.

Friendlyfire - Don't think this will apply as I bought the VRS from a SEAT main dealer mate. I did see Skoda's 30 day/1000mile exchange promise earlier tonight though.

rob_e - I've went back out and checked under the bonnet mate. The white sticker at the side of the engine has a date of June 30th 2012. Now the car is a 10 plate, so obviously the sticker on the engine is newer. The pipework and the engine looks new, but when the Skoda main dealer who fitted it told me on the phone it was an exchange unit, its got me thinking that its a previous 2.0 Tsi thats failed for some reason and has been repaired. I mean if it was a brand new engine, why not just come out and say its a brand new engine. Its certainly put some dount into my head as to the cars durability.

I could give Skoda an email, after all I've nothing to loose I guess. Just don't think this lying SEAT dealer will be so keen to return my car & or money.

OK then if it was all done without seeing the car and taking their word,then they were (to be polite) a bit naughty not mentioning the engine swap. Obviously it's easy sat here and not in your position but TBH I think I would be OK with finding out the 20,000 mile car had actually had a refurb engine in it. As long as that engine was a back to Skoda (or whoever they return them to) and stripped and rebuilt as new. It certainly is worth a call to ask why the bloody hell they didn't mention the not small matter of the car having had to require a new engine.

A "box fresh engine" to replace on in any new car will almost certainly have been rebuilt from one that failed a factory test or similar.

An engine isn't cheap to make so they're not going to throw it away.

You want to find out if it was "new reconditioned" from skoda with minimal miles on it or if the dealer in question got it from another car at a scrapper or just a recon from anywhere.

If skoda authorised the replacement, I'd be confident it was the first, which will be as good as new.

You do have rights under the sales of goods act, and IMHO since you directly asked a question and they didn't answer honestly you might have something. Not sure I'd use it more just ask for some money back on pain of that, as you'll have a car with a new engine, which is far better than one with a problem waiting to come.

My bocanegra is on its second engine. Was replaced with a brand new unit from top to bottom, Ancillaries etc were removed from old one that had only done 14k... Wouldn't worry about it really

The Mk2 Fabia Vrs get "new" engines due to the oil consumption issue they have.

But i think the term "exchange" is quite a loose term here as it could mean exchanged for another new unit off the production line as this has happened before.If the dealer has used the word exchange only and not refurbished unit instead i would think it was a new unit considering its well within its warranty period and low mileage.

I would get the engine number and phone SUK if it was my car and find out exactly what it is to settle my mind.If it was a new unit i would keep the car but if it was a refurbshed(recon) engine i would think twice about it like the OP is because of its future value.

If it's got a shiny new engine, consider yourself quids in

Ok, so sale of goods act is not the way you should be playing this if you bought the car blind...you're covered under the distance selling regulations and have 7 days from the date of delivery to reject the goods without having to give a reason or argue. You need to write the dealer a letter, recorded delivery to state you are returning it.

rob_e - I've went back out and checked under the bonnet mate. The white sticker at the side of the engine has a date of June 30th 2012.

My understanding is that this is the build date for the engine. Based on the date of the sticker that would appear to be a new engine?

..when the Skoda main dealer who fitted it told me on the phone it was an exchange unit, its got me thinking that its a previous 2.0 Tsi thats failed for some reason and has been repaired.

"Exchange" just means that they had to send the old unit back I think? I'm ex-motor trade (long time ago!) and my recollection of my time in the dealer warranty department is that this term just means there is a core charge (surcharge) against the old unit which is only refunded to the dealer when the old/damaged unit is returned - hence "exchange".

A "box fresh engine" to replace on in any new car will almost certainly have been rebuilt from one that failed a factory test or similar.

An engine isn't cheap to make so they're not going to throw it away.

I don't think this is correct. VAG have factories pumping out new parts/engines etc there efficiencies are based on mass production - they don't have a bunch of guys in oily overalls stripping down old engines, working out which bits have failed and putting them back together again - its simply not cost effective.

The only reason a failed engine is returned to skoda is so their warranty guys could (if they wanted) strip the engine to work out why it failed but they would only do that in very exceptional circumstances and would not re-build the engine for resale - its simply not worth the risk that they miss something and you get another failure/warranty return.

This would tie up with the build date sticker on the engine showing its only a few months old - ie this is a new engine, OP is quids in, happy days etc!

g_tee - I would consider myself quids in if I actually got the car at a knock down price. £11,500 for a 10 plate Octavia VRS is actually around the going rate from a VAG main dealer, be it SEAT, VW, Audi or Skoda. Had it been around £8,500 and I was made fully aware of its past history, then yes I may have been quids in, as it stands I've been mis-sold the car acording to trading standards.

Trading standards say because the replacement engine wasn't disclosed to me, then the dealer has now committed a criminal offence, liable for prosecution.Basically, had I known about the replacement engine, either I wouldn't have bought it, or I would have bought it at significantly less than market value, even if the refurb engine is indeed a brand new unit. So looks likely they'll hopefully get a conviction for mis-selling it.

Phsroberts - I could indeed go down the sale of goods act according to trading standards. This is because the cash transaction was completed over the phone and I didn't actually view the car until it got delivered. I've never had an issue before buying second hand cars over the internet from a main delar. It comes down to a gentlemans agreement to be truthful about what is being sold/exchanged and this is the first time a dealer has pulled a fast one as bad as this.

rob_e - Don't get me wrong, upon further checking the engine does look brand new. All pipework is clean and black, the sticker is June 30th 2012 as stated. Which means the engine sticker of June 2012 date is newer than the shell/body of the car which is on a 10 plate.

Thanks for the explanation, I know what you mean now mate. I guess I would have been happy enough if all the details were disclosed to me before I agreed anything. If I'd got the car at a value much less, then I would have taken my chances. As this didn't happen, I guess if I were to trade the car in with a mention of a new engine being fitted in the service sheet, then a garage is likely to offer less than market value for the car, say 2 or 3 years down the line. Would have been preferable to have the difference in potential trade value off the purchase price of the car now and it wouldn't then seem so bad. If you know what I mean?

As it stands the garage has opened up a whole heap of trouble for themselves and in doing so I could never ever recommend or buy from them again. I've not named the garage in question for obvious reasons though.

If its a skoda replacement engine fitted by a Skoda dealer it will be a "proper job" You have a car with basically a new engine so better than the equivalent aged car with a part worn engine. BUT. If you are not happy then just ask for your money back, I doubt the selling dealer even checked the service book in detail & probably wont want the hassle I can see you are about to heap on his door step.

If it were me I would get the vehicle checked by a third party, then if OK which Im confident it would be kick up merry hell with the dealer you bought it from but go for some lumpy compensation, dont accept a few services, a set of mats etc, go for a nice cheque as I guessing you wont want to go near the dealer again

Stuart_J - I'm not disputing it'll be a "proper job" I can also see that yes, it could be better than that of the equivalent aged car on its original engine with x amount of mileage. Its more the dealer mis-sold the car to me when its glaringly obvious the minute I opened the service book, its staring me in the face.

I understand where you are coming from, saying the selling dealer didn't properly check the service book, but again thats not really my issue. Afterall it was bought from a main VAG dealer and any hassle from a potential criminal offence being committed is of his own doing. If the car was sold to me with the information properly given, then I could and would have made an informed decision not to buy it, or buy it at a greatly reduced value.

Further to it all. Dealer has phoned back, unwilling to reduce the price of the car and therefor have agreed to swap the cars back.

How can it be unfit for purpose?

It's a car.

It has an engine.

It goes.

If the engine is brand new, then I'd have no qualms about owning that car. If it is a "second hand" one with some miles on it, I'd be disappointed, but I'm sure they wouldn't just throw an engine in without checking it etc.

Edited 20 September, 201213 yr by g_tee