Hello Guys and Gals,

I was wondering if you could help me with something. What I am after is some data for the charge delivery system on 1.4 TSi twin charged vRS engine.

1. Some good routing diagram with photos to help me understand how bot charges are piped and how the air is routed around from the air filter through charges via IC and to the intake manifold inc IAT position and pressure sensor position.

2. Air Flow volumes at diff RPMs, other in CFMs or m3/s - doesn't matter as I will be converting it

3. Final charge temps at IAT- just before it enters the intake manifold.

4. Volume of the system (especially IC, vRSy I think you had it somwhere?), diameter ( inner and outer) of the pipes. Especially intake manifold (throttle body?) connection and pipe size coming into IC.

If you could either provide me with links, hard data or point me in the right direction I'd be much obliged!

Many Thanks!

Hopefully there are lots here that can help you with that information.

It will be interesting to see what you can come up with.

Can i for my tuppence worth, advise that you get your new vehicle and drive it and be sure of how it is for performance before

doing any modifications that will invalidate your warranty.

The car will possibly change greatly over the first 5000-10000 miles.

It really is important IMO, unless you are happy to except that you will pay all costs for engine work,

to be sure that everything is as it should be.

Then Modify if you need more out of it.

If you are going to mess before the Warranty is up, its all our own choice.

have fun with it.

george

I take it you've already studied this: http://www.volkspage...ssp/SSP_359.pdf

It's been out for quite a while and gives lots of info on the technical background behind the chargers/engine combo.

Edited 20 September, 201213 yr by newbie69

Thanks George .

The Project which knocks about my head started some 6 years ago but it is rather complicated, takes some money to complete ( nowhere near the cost of a custom made IC-much less) and I had little time to do it really. Ideally I would need a partner to actually do it under my direction but there is nothing in the market ( nothing happened in the last 6 years at least and I can't see anything on the horizon) coming even close to this. Just to drop a little hint anything more advanced involves quantum mechanics and the last I checked they ( a company holding the patents) are still prototyping it and are into licensing negotiations . I do not want to go to big corporate world with it before I have a working prototype and a valid patent.

Got a few pics of the intake and intercooler setup if these are any use.

http://db.tt/TntKGXDR

http://db.tt/DCzLbhf2

http://db.tt/uxevT5Qw

http://db.tt/nShWPeP7

Gray

I am intending to run the car stock for some time, air filter will be changed to high flow one but that will be it really. In that manual from volkspage.net I loved the bit when they described the new design for the engine block and cylinders aimed at reducing oil consumption etc having recently read all the threads about 1.4TSi engines drinking up to 8.5l /1000miles lol!

Thank you very much for your help! So far I have Turbo exit temp at 200C and boost pressure between 2.4 & 1.8 bar.

Still needs the rest, mainly air flow. I need this to calculate heat load precisely ( or as precisely as I can) of the charge air leaving the Turbo.

P.S. what was you test score ?

Would it be possible to get a number/reading from MAF sensor telling me max grams of air per second flow? Is that ECU accessible data?

You can get most of what you want with logging on vas.

not many people have access to VAS to be fair. Most places/guys just use VCDS via the OBDII port, which for the most part is fine, but VAS connects right into the ECU and has a much higher sample rate. Bloody impressive the amount of stuff they data log as well!!

not many people have access to VAS to be fair. Most places/guys just use VCDS via the OBDII port, which for the most part is fine, but VAS connects right into the ECU and has a much higher sample rate. Bloody impressive the amount of stuff they data log as well!!

Actually I found your post on some Seat forum with flow data and it is good enough for me. I will use 250g/s @1.8 bar boost, which according to that tech note linked above is max standard boost pressure at mac revs. What boost are you going to run on yours in the end? Provided you sort out misfires that is . Any news on that front btw?

250 g/s is very high mate. Unless that's on Sy's car running the hybrid?

My peak is 183.7g/s and that's been remapped.

My peak boost is 21.6 psi which is just under 1.5 bar but at 183.7g/s the boost is about 16psi

Hope that helps! I've got some logs i could send you over if your interested.

272g/s was quoted for stage 2+ car with both exhaust and intake work done. I don't have the link to that Seat forum but it was vRSy (Simon?) giving those numbers from different 1.4TSi cars. That is plain silly and I will not be sizing the system for such flows as there is perhaps one or two cars like that around... I can build it easily but a more powerful alternator would have to be installed and other bits and pieces.

I'd need a good (and affordable) machine shop specialising in Alu in Herts...

I think 250g/s gives enough headroom to satisfy the modding community and would mean much better efficiency for more standard cars.

I wonder what charge temps are being reached with NoS systems? On 1.4TDi 3 pot VAG oil chuggers they were getting -5C .

250 g/s is very high mate. Unless that's on Sy's car running the hybrid?

My peak is 183.7g/s and that's been remapped.

My peak boost is 21.6 psi which is just under 1.5 bar but at 183.7g/s the boost is about 16psi

Hope that helps! I've got some logs i could send you over if your interested.

Sy's motor was sucking in "only" 200g/s . 16.0psi seems rather low as VAG blurb stated max boost at 2.6bar when supercharger and turbo change over and 1.8bar max turbo boost. Or perhaps I didn't read it right?

They also say that charge temp at the turbo charger is 200C, before it gets into IC, is that true as there are no temp sensors at IC's intake? Why I am banging on about this is to make sure I get my calcs right before I start cadding-up that Alu part...

200°C sounds far too high, I've got some logs from mine and the temp before the turbo was barely hitting 40°C. I'll try and get some more tomorrow, looks like there is a map sensor on the IC pipework before it enters the inlet so there should be a temp to go with it.

Gray

That would be great, feed me data!

Iv noticed that my intake temps rocket from 25drgrees to over 40 when cornering, think its due to the air flow through the intercooler changing (similar to problems drifters have)

Not sure if thats anyhelp to you but just thought id input it anyway

272g/s was quoted for stage 2+ car with both exhaust and intake work done. I don't have the link to that Seat forum but it was vRSy (Simon?) giving those numbers from different 1.4TSi cars. That is plain silly and I will not be sizing the system for such flows as there is perhaps one or two cars like that around... I can build it easily but a more powerful alternator would have to be installed and other bits and pieces.

I'd need a good (and affordable) machine shop specialising in Alu in Herts...

Im poretty sure if i quoted 272g/s and was talking of stage 2+ cars that i was referring to a 2.0TFSI as thats K)4 TFSI MAF territory. Can i see the link.

Sy's motor was sucking in "only" 200g/s . 16.0psi seems rather low as VAG blurb stated max boost at 2.6bar when supercharger and turbo change over and 1.8bar max turbo boost. Or perhaps I didn't read it right?

They also say that charge temp at the turbo charger is 200C, before it gets into IC, is that true as there are no temp sensors at IC's intake? Why I am banging on about this is to make sure I get my calcs right before I start cadding-up that Alu part...

Can i see a link to this. cant remember any G/S logs for my car, I definitely havent posted any MAF readings since the hybrid went on because i havent done any logs myself.

200°C sounds far too high, I've got some logs from mine and the temp before the turbo was barely hitting 40°C. I'll try and get some more tomorrow, looks like there is a map sensor on the IC pipework before it enters the inlet so there should be a temp to go with it.

Gray

200 degrees after it exits the turbo is what he means i think. If you think how much the air is getting compressed its not surprising its that high. There's no way it would exit the turbo at 40 degrees, id also say that 40 degrees before the turbo would actually be high as thats air should be at ambient temperature because it hasn't been compressed yet.

Out of interest what is it you require all this info for?

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2994161 this is where I took it from, the flow rates. It was you Sy

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2994161 this is where I took it from, the flow rates. It was you Sy and I think I did not know what I was looking at lol. If that is the case (270g/s was for 2.0TSFi motors) then even better ax 200g/s will be a little bit easier to cope with and the kit will be smaller.

As to temps, yes, at the turbo's outlet was 200C. Also, before it gets to the turbo it's already been compressed by the supercharger but not sure without whipping out my calculator how much temp it would gain in the process.

What I am trying to do here is a charge cooling system able to deliver sub zero ( theoretically there is no limit on the belwo 0 C temps I can get for really stupid power applications) temps to inlet manifold with 80-90% reduced volume compared to the stock IC system. There will be no consumables and system's reaction will be instantaneous. It will require just basic mods able to be performed within 1hr time - no bodywork has to go out, just some pipes disconnected. Can even be left in place should you wish to revert to factory settings:). The only thing I'd need some help with is electronics for the management system. Very basic stuff and there maybe something on the market already ( I need to check one online place today ) to suit me.

So, the system will have two benefits, more power and cleaner exhaust due to lower combustion temps.

P.S. I found a machine shop close by doing one offs 15mins drive from where I live. Will be calling them later on today to discuss the project. Will let you know.

200 degrees after it exits the turbo is what he means i think. If you think how much the air is getting compressed its not surprising its that high.

Oops, sorry, read IC as turbo. So sounds about right then.

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2994161 this is where I took it from, the flow rates. It was you Sy and I think I did not know what I was looking at lol. If that is the case (270g/s was for 2.0TSFi motors) then even better ax 200g/s will be a little bit easier to cope with and the kit will be smaller.

As to temps, yes, at the turbo's outlet was 200C. Also, before it gets to the turbo it's already been compressed by the supercharger but not sure without whipping out my calculator how much temp it would gain in the process.

What I am trying to do here is a charge cooling system able to deliver sub zero ( theoretically there is no limit on the belwo 0 C temps I can get for really stupid power applications) temps to inlet manifold with 80-90% reduced volume compared to the stock IC system. There will be no consumables and system's reaction will be instantaneous. It will require just basic mods able to be performed within 1hr time - no bodywork has to go out, just some pipes disconnected. Can even be left in place should you wish to revert to factory settings:). The only thing I'd need some help with is electronics for the management system. Very basic stuff and there maybe something on the market already ( I need to check one online place today ) to suit me.

Soundss interesting, ive not seen a charge cooling kit for a VAg application before so i look forward to the results.

Yeah those figures were all for the 2.0TFSI K04 engnine running way more power than these 1.4TSI engines. that was what i had before i downgraded to this motor. That 200g/s was when my Octavia vRS was running stage 1 remap, so its not related to the 1.4TSI at all. Ive no idea what mine is pumping out tbh. Ive not looked

Regarding the supercharging also compressing the air as well as the turbo, you have to bear in mind that the supercharger does not work after 3500 rpm because it disengages the magnetic clutch after that point, and very often below then provided the turbo has enough boost to take it on solely.

Below 3500rpm when the turbo isnt on boost it wont be compressing the air very much so i dont think there will be an accumulative temperature from both the supercharger and the turbo compressing the air simultaneously.

This where I got the info from re boost and temps http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_359.pdf

About the link above.

Remember that some information in there may be different now in TSI engines with the Current Softwear the vRS's should be running.

there they say.

"the different output and torque levels are achieved using softwear. the engines mechanics are the same in both engines."

*for the 125kW engine they give, in the above link.

'Maximum torque' 240 Nm @ 1750-4500 rpm*

Maximum output 125 kW @ 6000 rpm

That is now given by VAG as

'Maximum torque Nm/rpm ' 250 Nm 2000-4500 rpm

Maximum performance (PS/rpm) 180 / 6,200

The A1 is given as being 182bhp where as the vRS & GTi are shown as 178bhp in other VAG Sites & Comparisons.

george

That is why Grey's data logs would be helpful to see what really goes down in there. In any case I need border line conditions as I need to size it for max load conditions, worst case scenario. Then you have mapped engines sucking more air, delivering more horsies at higher temps. Valid point there!

http://www.briskoda....-new-air-filter

I think some of this thread i am linking was removed, by the MODS.

(probably something i said, re heatsoak on other threads or this one.)

Any how at the time i was monitoring my under bonnet temperatures which i have written down still someplace,

Just running a standard engine and looking at what mods were required, or not.

**Nothing scientific here, just some stuff i remember posting then.*

I just use a digital fridge thermometer. (simple and effective)

In the area around the battery no mattter the Ambient temp of between 15-23 celcius & at 92 celcius Oil Temp @ 70 mph

there is usually a temp of about 32-36 degrees while running, which can rise to 42 degrees celcius and above within a few minutes when stopped.

It is worth getting actual readings at the Standard external Inlet at running speeds, & at the inside of the Standard airbox when up to running temps and speeds.

The area near the Battery was & is too hot for taking Air from.

and can be far too hot on start up after running fast and then stopping and running again in Warm or Hot weather.

I know there are smart people, and smart thinking and solutions, but sometimes KISS is a good idea.

http://torquecars.com/tuning/induction-kits.php

Just as a general point when running a vRS hard,

If you do not have a white bonnet & its sunny, it is a good idea to get that bonnet opened when sitting.

A dark colour bonnet in direct sunlight gets very hot under there.

george

£3 Fridge Thermometers from Amazon, very useful for so many things!