When i was checking back about July,

@ an ambient temp of 23.5 degrees going up the road @ 70 mph the stock intake just inside the front intake was 32 degrees.

That was before the Standard Airbox.

You can check various places & websites on the location for 'Air Intakes',

Front, angled, side etc.

Ambient temps are not the whole story on an intake.

The Bonnet has sat in the sun, under the bonnet in the engine compartment it is 29 degrees generally.

The area near/behind the battery is at 29degrees. the Airbox Plastic can be higher,

the interior of the box might be cooler when running with the front intake before the 'Airbox'.

***

So you want the Temperature that is Entering the Standard Airbox & the Temperature exiting it.

Then get temps from other set ups.

*** That is when you can look at 'Modifying' those Airflows and Temperatures.

Otherwise you are working without the relevant information.

IMO,

The standard box/set up is actually quite good, and provides cool, fresh air/oxygen flow which is not a problem.

Thats for Road Driving and some playing.

Doing long drives, or just short blasts during a warm or cold day,

is different from sitting up to fluid temperatures, on a sunny day away to do a 1/4 mile, or a sprint, or a Hillclimb,

or taking it to Track Days...

Horses for courses.

Are you wanting Performance, economy, reliability or all of those and something else.

george

EDIT. If people talk about 'Wind Chill'.

Remember that 'Wind Chill' is something that 'Living Flesh feels', Human or Animals.

'Cooling effects and chilling is different from .'wind chill,'.

EG, A radiator front on a car gets the air coming at and through it, a pulling fan pulls air through.

or a pushing fan in front pushes air through to cool the fins.

You do not push the air from behind a radiator forward to fight against the air coming from the front.

Well you do in some applications, but not for a vRS.

Now sitting stationary say in a 4x4 winching and cooling an Oil Cooler or rear mounted radiator, you do things differently.

NOT MY 4x4's but just as an example that cooling is not a problem space is tho.

& a Supercharged JImny.

george,

I want more power on tap if I want to, normal motorway driving map and city driving map with max focus on economy and nothing else, it may even include rev limit

So switcheable map (like vRSy has on his baby) would be perfect.

Also I do not want anything requiring maintenance (no Nos or WMI ) and all the mods to be reversible to standard within 30 mins.

At the moment I am achieving all that. Maps will have to be developed (already developed for Sy's car?) and bought. If it means that each map will set me back £400 odd then I will pas on that idea, not worht it.

Also the mod has be low cost. After the design change I do not need a machine shop help any more, it became ridiculously simple and may be even sold as a flat pack for self assembly!

BTW, really great machinery you have there to play with man! That big V8 is my wet dream! When kids leave the nest I will certainly get myself big block Chevvy SS from '71 and will be wetting myslef each time I step on the loud pedal :love:

Thanks for your input!

A small update.

Cading work in progress

By having it all designed in full 3D I will have data ready for future CAD/CAM machining if needed and for now I will use it to print out 1:1 templates. Hence my earlier reference to flat pack model

Edited 4 October, 201213 yr by Jabozuma

What is it you are going to do? remove the intercooler and use a charge cooler system, I don't suppose you will be using a Peltier cell will you?

The pipe from turbo will be going straight into the throttle body with my kit in-between. Inter cooler can stay or be removed and replaced something much smaller of a slightly different function. This massively reduces the volume practically eliminating any lag and making throttle response rather brisk . Water based coolant will be used but it is not a water charge cooler. It is not a phase change cooler either-too much inertia in such systems and too sensitive to Gs. I will advance CAD work this weekend as I need to finish it to know how much alu and what sizes to order. It will also be an eye candy. I am thinking about annealed copper finish as this has the lowest thermal radiation coefficient-will be impervious to the proximity of hot turbo and engine block. It will also have another feature very useful in Siberia

Have you looked at spacing etc? there is practically no room for anything around that area from what i remember off the top of my head

+1 there's no room at all! But if it's a small neat peice of kit it could work.

So I take it the water cooled system will be to draw the heat from the hot side of something there fore leaving you with a nice cold side to chill the air passing, so you will need some sort of pumping system running continually when the engine is on, and if this was ever to stop pumping for what ever reason... Boom??

It will have two pumps, each with 50,000 MTBF-if you run your car for 17years 8 hours a day 365 day a year then you may encounter a failure . Then there is a second one to pick up the slack. Also they will run at 50% duty so ... I work with 2N+ plus redundancy systems where failure is not an option. I can load it up with so much redundancy without too much weight penalty that would bring tears to Mars Rover designers . But what is the point?

Eve if all of it fails the engine will still work, it will just go into limp mode.

Space wise currently it is at 130x130x250 mm of main unit. Two small pumps and a controller will not be a problem as can be mounted anywhere really.

Can't wait for you to get the car and get all this working will be really interesting to see it working!

Still think you may struggle for space.

tbh, i agree a charge cooling system would be more efficient, than air to air, but i agree with hayden, if one was to fail, and it might, then IMO your are looking at a serious issue.

Even if the pumps have a 50,000 hour MTBF, its still risky IMO. What about an alternator failure, or a fuse trips out etc etc. At least with the IC, you always have the turbo forcing it through the air to air cooler. remove that from the equation and the heatsoak would be horrific if this charge cooler failed in some way.

How do you plan on reducing the temperature in the coolant of this kit, presumably some form of radiator, and where will this mount?

Charge cooler? My mates celica gt4 has a charge cooler on it, is it a similar idea?

Charge cooler? My mates celica gt4 has a charge cooler on it, is it a similar idea?

but it would have been built with the might of toyotas technical division behind it, with thousands of hours of R&D and testing before its release, so similar but different lol.

Plus, with it being made with the car it will be integrated into the cars safety systems, so if anything went wrong the car would know and either go into limp mode or let you know somethings wrong.

Where if Jabozuma's system was to stop working it would force the car into limp mode via a fault elsewhere that would be caused as a result of the charge cooler failing, and forcing the car to do this may cause more problems.

Or buy this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2010-VW-GOLF-MK6-1-4-TSI-DSG-AUTO-CHARGE-AIR-COOLER-BREAKING-03F145749C-/120880874232?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c250fc2f8

and modify it to suit??

but if it was so effective why wouldn't VW do this, they clearly have the knowledge

It is very good chaps that you are thinking about and trying to find holes in the design (which has not been shown in full so far). I brings a smile to my face as this is usually my day job, too look for any potential problems with the designs my team makes . I do really appreciate it and please do not stop, be devil's advocates and try as much as you can to find any problems with it. It might be that somebody spots an issue I have not thought about, which could be so difficult to overcome that it will be a show stopper and will save me lots of wasted time and money, although I sincerely doubt it

tbh, i agree a charge cooling system would be more efficient, than air to air, but i agree with hayden, if one was to fail, and it might, then IMO your are looking at a serious issue.

Even if the pumps have a 50,000 hour MTBF, its still risky IMO. What about an alternator failure, or a fuse trips out etc etc. At least with the IC, you always have the turbo forcing it through the air to air cooler. remove that from the equation and the heatsoak would be horrific if this charge cooler failed in some way.

How do you plan on reducing the temperature in the coolant of this kit, presumably some form of radiator, and where will this mount?

The system will be no different from any other sub-system on the car. If alternator fails you are screwed anyways:).

The complete and catastrophic failure of the unit will have absolutely no effect on the safety of the car. This engine as it rolls out from the factory has a normally aspirated mode where loads are very low. This baypasses both compressors. If the unit fails that is what is going to happen, limp mode without any danger to the engine whatsoever. Likelihood of that will be minimal . the weakest point is the pumping system and this will have a silly level of redundancy.

There are two ways of reducing the temp of the coolant. Either use the current IC to run coolant through it via current charge air path - heavy option but no mods required. Remove the current IC and install a tiny one (compared to the size of the IC, more like a modest oil cooler) to save weight= more expensive option. Mind you, nowhere near as expensive as this kit!!!!

http://www.chargecoo...products_id=205 Failure of the SINGLE pump they have will result in the same charge cooling absence as with my kit. Also, worth mentioning, that my design's performance will make AVT's kit look simply laughable and archaic!

but it would have been built with the might of toyotas technical division behind it, with thousands of hours of R&D and testing before its release, so similar but different lol.

I would not put too much trust in the "might" of those R&D departments - they are just people who have plenty of limitations imposed on them by Toyota sales people. Some for a good reason some completely looney! I do not have any.

Plus, with it being made with the car it will be integrated into the cars safety systems, so if anything went wrong the car would know and either go into limp mode or let you know somethings wrong.

Where if Jabozuma's system was to stop working it would force the car into limp mode via a fault elsewhere that would be caused as a result of the charge cooler failing, and forcing the car to do this may cause more problems.

Or buy this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2010-VW-GOLF-MK6-1-4-TSI-DSG-AUTO-CHARGE-AIR-COOLER-BREAKING-03F145749C-/120880874232?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c250fc2f8

and modify it to suit??

but if it was so effective why wouldn't VW do this, they clearly have the knowledge

That VW kit is completely over engineered, waay too heavy and waay too big to be of any use:)

As for the integration to the car's systems that is really my goal!! Well spotted! I want this kit to be hooked up to the ECU. Now, imagine the ECU can actually request a specific air temperature at any specific environmental conditions and load requests to produce the best possible combustion conditions. -20C outside and starting a cold engine a bummer, no problem, your intake air temp will be lovely +20C as requested Mr ECU! I am on the track day and booting the hell out of the engine, no problem, the manifold will be iced over (exaggeration)! Detects unit's failure (will never happen!) goes into naturally aspirated mode. That is what I am aiming for as the end result.

Water to air coolers are more effective than air to air coolers but not much. After All all they can to is to cool to ambient temp...

It'd be good if I could work with some ECU wizards to help me with integration of the unit into car's ECU when I got the prototype swinging. Managed to find a way of simulating hot boost air outside the car !

There is another thing I have on my mind, already tried before in cars but dropped due to weight penalty. This which would make the unit completely independent from car's alternator, and I am not talking about a battery pack .That would also help a lot with hybrid cars and can be used in conjunction with liquid air technology.

Let me know what do you think gents!

Cheers

Jabo

http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page_3 - I am bored and I read their "technical" and design pages.

The amount of bull$hit, half truths and bigging up their products combined with distinctive lack of bench test data as well as mahoosive bhp potential claims is simply staggering! Wow, that was fun reading it!

Are you adapting a intercooler??

I like the part about actually connecting it to the ECU, that would be the best way! But I can imagine very difficult as you will be adding something that is not there at present in the coding, and making the engine work on a slightly different basis but I can see it working, all it will be doing is requesting a temperature and as long as the bit of kit can control! It all depends on how it will decide what temperature to request, like you say at -20c you could make the intake temps +20c, but if this was to be used in the same principle if the ambient temp was +20c the intake would be +60c, and I can't think how you would make it work correctly without say a switch for 'Cold' ambient temps were it will make the intake temps higher. 'Hot' would be to make the intakes colder, and say a 'Race' where it will control at super cold intake temps. Unless at different ambient temps it would self switch to another mode as previously mention, but would be nice to have a fast and furious style flip switch for race mode :rofl:

I would have so that it starts with 20c intake temps. When oil reaches 87 it reduces intake temps to maximize power. Sort of a safety feature to stop you booting when cold aswell.

Are you adapting a intercooler??

I might as this would be the least intrusive way of installation, just hoses changed and no hardware removed from the car so it can be reverted to full stock straight away. Mind you, I do not have to, removal of the existing IC is an option but rather time consuming as you need to take of whole front of the car...

I like the part about actually connecting it to the ECU, that would be the best way! But I can imagine very difficult as you will be adding something that is not there at present in the coding, and making the engine work on a slightly different basis but I can see it working, all it will be doing is requesting a temperature and as long as the bit of kit can control! It all depends on how it will decide what temperature to request, like you say at -20c you could make the intake temps +20c, but if this was to be used in the same principle if the ambient temp was +20c the intake would be +60c, and I can't think how you would make it work correctly without say a switch for 'Cold' ambient temps were it will make the intake temps higher. 'Hot' would be to make the intakes colder, and say a 'Race' where it will control at super cold intake temps. Unless at different ambient temps it would self switch to another mode as previously mention, but would be nice to have a fast and furious style flip switch for race mode :rofl:

You see, that is the beauty of that solution that it can switch from heating to cooling instantly. Aluminium has very small thermal inertia so no problem here.

Coolant side would actually be very advantageous at the switch over. When heating coolant will be running at below ambient. Then when switched to cooling that would instantly start cooling the unit making the switchover very fast. ECU integration is a BIG ask and a real ECU soft wizard would be required or I will just learn to code ECUs myself - a challenge!

I would have so that it starts with 20c intake temps. When oil reaches 87 it reduces intake temps to maximize power. Sort of a safety feature to stop you booting when cold aswell.

Exactly! ECU would be able to change the temps dynamically as and when needed. Mind you this can be achieved in a much more rudimentary way by utilising IAT sensor - simply put a splitter plug on it, one connection goes to ECU as normal the other goes to the Unit and based on the temps reading the unit will supply the appropriate temp. So if -20C outside it will heat but as soon as the engine starts producing the temps it will switch to cooling. this can go together with a cabin switch where you manually change settings

To launch your missile

Sorry what i ment was buying an additional intercooler and modifing that i.e welding plate round intercooler for water inlet

No, I am building everything from my designs and raw materials. Only coolant pumps, hoses and electronics will be bought.

I recall Ford doing something (possibly experimental at the time) where they used an aircon system as a chargecooler...think it was a patented idea as well?

Well i guess if you were to go down a route lyk that easiest way would be to divert aircon air to inlet manifold

It wouldn't work, phase change systems have too much inertia in them, are rather heavy, require maintenance (one of my primary goals is to have a system which is maintenance free and are rather large spatially. That is probably why Ford did not progress with that design.

When you have an engine which works at constant high load, like train engines or other industrial process machinery then Phase Change systems are fine as they are very efficient!

Its not a totally new idea (although I like the sound of it) - the Jag XJ-S used the AC line to cool the fuel lines on the V12...

This finished yet?