DSG Paddles; yes or no?

[Perc]

My one real pet hate with dsg, is kick down in manual mode. Why is this here!?

It's a safety precaution, I think.

I used to drive a Volvo that didn't kick down in manual mode. Imagine trying to overtake and finding yourself in the opposite lane with your foot welded to the floor, no acceleration and a confusing look on your face... because you forgot you put it in manual mode 15 minutes earlier. It happened a few times to me, and it's an experience I can do without.

But the DSG doesn't actually shift down unless you actually press the pedal past the kickdown switch, right? I actually don't really know, my car is not fully broken in yet so I haven't really tested those things out. But if that's the case, I really don't see the problem. Just don't press the pedal all the way.

[zei20t]

you can push the throttle all the way without hitting the kick-down.

IMO its also pointless but I think its there to help automatic transmission owners to have a kick-down on their traditional autos.

if you had a manual gearbox, youd shift into the required gear. with DSG, pop the paddle X times.

[Perc]

if you had a manual gearbox, youd shift into the required gear. with DSG, pop the paddle X times.

The difference is that if you are in a manual car, you KNOW you are in a manual and drop a cog or two before overtaking.

When your car is an automatic with a manual mode, it's easy to forget that you engaged manual. DSG or not, paddles or not. Done it several times, just as confusing every time.

[zei20t]

I can only comment on my own DSG experience. with some extra throttle, it drops down a gear or two. I don't have to hit the kick-down switch.

then again I have the DQ250 DSG on a 200hp TSI motor

[Jockdooshbag]

The VAG DSG is the best gearbox i have ever owned. Im on my second one. I have had several manual cars and several traditional torque convertor autos.

The set up in my VRS with the padles is the best yet by far. The best feature for me is the manual overide with paddles while still in D mode. Great for back roads as you can be wafting along in D and then change up and down manually at a few bends then simply pull and hold the paddle for a couple of seconde to re-engage full auto mode when back on a straighter section of road. I absolutely love this feature.

The gear changes in mine are incredibly smooth as was my last DSG golf. If anyone has a jerky DSG then its broken pure and simple.

Not everyone likes autos which is fair enough as i can see why some would prefer a manula box. But if you like DSG or any AUTO then paddles just make the whole experience even better. Definately get them.

[Kiwibacon]

Liking DSG isn't as simple as auto/manual either. Personally I really disliked several inherent features of the DSG and rate other 6sp auto's more highly. Particularly the lag and confusion when it gets a gear change wrong.

IMO DSG is just an intermediate step with some inherent flaws which will become bigger concerns when mainstream autos with more gears and the ability to shift several gears at once come in. Especially given the smoother shifts and lack of clutch pack replacement in torque converter autos.

In a manual on the open road if I need to pass something it's straight from 6th to 4th. DSG can't do that. It's a two step change taking about 2 seconds. Change from 6th to 5th (that is fast), then have to deselect 6th and select 4th (really slow).

Then once up to speed the DSG can't slot straight back into 6th, it has to do the same shuffle again. But with the confusion of "did it pre-select 3rd while I was in 4th"?

If you want to pootle around, it won't matter which gearbox you get. If you like straight line acceleration from a stop and don't mind half a second for the gearbox to work it out. Then you'll think DSG is the cats pyjamas. But no-one can seriously say the DSG is a peformance box.

[zei20t]

In a manual on the open road if I need to pass something it's straight from 6th to 4th. DSG can't do that. It's a two step change taking about 2 seconds. Change from 6th to 5th (that is fast), then have to deselect 6th and select 4th (really slow).

Then once up to speed the DSG can't slot straight back into 6th, it has to do the same shuffle again. But with the confusion of "did it pre-select 3rd while I was in 4th"?

i dont know how long its been since you have driven a car with DSG. it takes significantly less time for me to shift back or forward 2 or even 3 gears. i get people looking at me weird if i pull up quickly shifting back through the gears 'maunally' as its pretty damn quick.

its entirely possibly your experience with DSG was bad and on an older style mechatronic equipped box.

anyway to the OP, if youre getting DSG, get the paddles. if its a few hundred dollars (pounds) difference, it might be worth it for those times you wish you did have them

[Felicia racer]

It's a safety precaution, I think.

I used to drive a Volvo that didn't kick down in manual mode. Imagine trying to overtake and finding yourself in the opposite lane with your foot welded to the floor, no acceleration and a confusing look on your face... because you forgot you put it in manual mode 15 minutes earlier. It happened a few times to me, and it's an experience I can do without.

But the DSG doesn't actually shift down unless you actually press the pedal past the kickdown switch, right? I actually don't really know, my car is not fully broken in yet so I haven't really tested those things out. But if that's the case, I really don't see the problem. Just don't press the pedal all the way.

Agreed actually, sometimes I forget I'm in manual and just end up revving in first gear thinking why hasn't it changed up yet lol.

But it isn't that sluggish in 7th or 6th so there really is no need.

i dont know how long its been since you have driven a car with DSG. it takes significantly less time for me to shift back or forward 2 or even 3 gears. i get people looking at me weird if i pull up quickly shifting back through the gears 'maunally' as its pretty damn quick.

its entirely possibly your experience with DSG was bad and on an older style mechatronic equipped box.

anyway to the OP, if youre getting DSG, get the paddles. if its a few hundred dollars (pounds) difference, it might be worth it for those times you wish you did have them

Yeah dsg can shift down 4 gears instantly, whilst using th kick down it will go from 7th to 3rd quickly.

Even using the paddles or sport mode it can shift down 2 instantly.

It's that good of a box

Edited 16 November, 2012 by Felicia racer

[booke23]

Are you sure it was actually a DSG you owned? What you describe is light years away from my DSG.

IMO DSG is just an intermediate step with some inherent flaws which will become bigger concerns when mainstream autos with more gears and the ability to shift several gears at once come in. Especially given the smoother shifts and lack of clutch pack replacement in torque converter autos.

Intermediate step?......I'd say gold standard. I've had a lot of auto's, only one of them had gear changes as smooth as the DSG. As for no clutch pack replacement in torque converter auto.....well not quite true. A conventional auto has numerous clutches and brake bands to control the planetary gears.....all of which fail from time to time.

In a manual on the open road if I need to pass something it's straight from 6th to 4th. DSG can't do that. It's a two step change taking about 2 seconds. Change from 6th to 5th (that is fast), then have to deselect 6th and select 4th (really slow).

Then once up to speed the DSG can't slot straight back into 6th, it has to do the same shuffle again. But with the confusion of "did it pre-select 3rd while I was in 4th"?

Can't say I've had this.....I put my foot down and the car flys.....and the gear changes are stupidly fast.

If you want to pootle around, it won't matter which gearbox you get. If you like straight line acceleration from a stop and don't mind half a second for the gearbox to work it out.

I was at the lights the other day and a guy in a Vauxhall Vectra SRI 2.2 petrol pulled up next to me. I thought to have a go at outrunning him. I floored it when the lights changed and......no half second delay.....off I went. I easily outran him, in my standard PD140 estate. The road merged into 1 lane and I got a good view of the look on his face. He looked a bit devastated to have been had by a Skoda estate.....diesel.....and not even a vRS. But I put it down entirely to the fast DSG changes.

Then you'll think DSG is the cats pyjamas. But no-one can seriously say the DSG is a peformance box.

I think most users would disagree. I think it is the cats pyjamas, slippers, three piece suit, top hat and gloves.

[allan1888]

I'm the same as all the positive comments here. My DSG changes up and down gears with no issues or any hesitation whatsoever. It can drop from 6th to 4th instantly without issue and my brothers is the same. If your DSG box is confused I would say it really is faulty and needs repair

[Kiwibacon]

Guess the brand new superb DSG needs repair then.

[dunc69]

I'd say DSG is a performance 'box. DSG or other twin-clutch 'boxes such as Ford's Powershift, Porsche's PDK and Audi's S-Tronic equivalent all accelerate quicker that their manual equivalent.

The software is extremely clever and mine is only very rarely slightly confused.

Also consider that new Ferraris are only available with double-clutch 'boxes now. No manual option is provided.

Ferrari are the future of modern sports cars in the same way that the S-Class Merc is the showcase of future gizmos.

DSG can, in both 6 and 7-speed variants, be described as a sports 'box.

Edited 17 November, 2012 by dunc69

[Kiwibacon]

The DSG 7 speed box is quite different in many ways to the 6 speed box.

If your idea of performance is the traffic light sprint (getting a jump on those pesky vectras), then you'll likely love DSG.

Some are more perceptive to things like lag than others. All automated boxes have extra lag over a manual box and clutch. The delay in registering just how far the accelerator has moved, how fast it has moved, what is the desired outcome and moving clutches to make that happen.

With a manual, the clutch and accelerator are operated simultaneously, not sequentially.

Felicia, three questions for you:

1. If you are in 6th and cruising on a 6sp DSG, which gear does the DSG have pre-selected?

2. If you then suddenly floor the throttle how many movements does it have to perform to get to 4th?

3. What's the time to do that?

[Joel SHOEMARK]

1. If you are in 6th and cruising on a 6sp DSG, which gear does the DSG have pre-selected?

2. If you then suddenly floor the throttle how many movements does it have to perform to get to 4th?

3. What's the time to do that?

1: If you’re in 6th on a 6sp DSG, 5th is pre selected.

2: It would disengage the clutch on the even numbered gear shaft, change to 4th gear and re-engage the clutch. How often do you need power that quickly? If you were in a manual, how long will it take you make the decision that you need the power of the lower gear, take your hand off the wheel, make the change and go. With the DSG the moment you make the decision, you tromp the accelerator and within about a second or a fraction more, you’re on your way.

3: I have read this somewhere. I'm still looking but from memory. An upshift can be as quick as 0.08sec, nomally 0.60sec and any change can be as long as 1.1 seconds.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

Here SKODA says 0.03 seconds.

http://www.skoda.com.au/innovation/technology-speed.aspx

[Joel SHOEMARK]

A quick question. As my Yeti DSG doesnt arrive until Jan/Feb next year. What speed is red line 3rd?

As the speed limit in Australia is 100km/h. If I'm cruising behind a slow car, it's likely to be 90km/h or so. If that's the case, when I want the extra power to over take the DSG might be more likely to go from 6th to 3rd which will be a quicker change than 6th to 4th.

Happy Days.

[dilly]

Yes.

I find they're useful when going downhill. I suppose the DSG box has a "tilt"ometer which tells the box to change down. By the time you've got to the bottom of a particularly steep hill, it'll be in D3, when you could've descended in relaxed 7 and simply used the brakes, Same goes for long averagely steep slopes: if you want to save petrol, flick it onto 7.

Other times I find useful as has already been said is when you're looking for a quick overtake. Flick it down a couple of cogs. Apart from any advantages, there's something childishly pleasurable about it - playing at racing drivers!

Just don't forget to flick the selector left and right to get back to auto.

dill

[booke23]

The DSG 7 speed box is quite different in many ways to the 6 speed box.

If your idea of performance is the traffic light sprint (getting a jump on those pesky vectras), then you'll likely love DSG.

Am I missing something about the 7 speed DSG?......is the 7 speed DSG completely rubbish? (I've never driven one......I doubt it's rubbish)

Some are more perceptive to things like lag than others. All automated boxes have extra lag over a manual box and clutch. The delay in registering just how far the accelerator has moved, how fast it has moved, what is the desired outcome and moving clutches to make that happen.

Even if you concentrate really hard and change gear as fast as you possibly can on a manual transmission, the whole process could probably be done in 300 milliseconds....with practice.

The DSG does it in 8 milliseconds. In other words, If I floor the throttle the DSG will have completed the down shift, just as your hand lets go of the steering wheel to reach for the gear stick in a manual.

The end.

[dunc69]

Am I missing something about the 7 speed DSG?......is the 7 speed DSG completely rubbish? (I've never driven one......I doubt it's rubbish)

Even if you concentrate really hard and change gear as fast as you possibly can on a manual transmission, the whole process could probably be done in 300 milliseconds....with practice.

The DSG does it in 8 milliseconds. In other words, If I floor the throttle the DSG will have completed the down shift, just as your hand lets go of the steering wheel to reach for the gear stick in a manual.

The end.

That's one way to put it! Agreed. Well done.

[Kiwibacon]

Joel, yes 5th will be preselected and it'll get into 5th pretty quick. But by the time it gets into 4th you're talking ~2 seconds. That's not just two seconds of not being in the right gear, it's two seconds of the ECU interrupting power during the change.

Two seconds is ~60 metres, which when trying to pass a truck out of a corner uphill can be the difference between safely doing it and running out of road.

The point isn't about a DSG changing faster, the point is DSG is entirely reactive and can't make any decision until your accelerator pedal is mashed. Manual gearbox's are predictive, you put them in the right gear a second before and plant foot (with no TCU thinking about it lag) right when you need it. Uninterrupted power as requested.

In the same truck passing scenario above, if I was driving a DSG and give it a quick burst to catch the truck, it's likely just selected changed into 5th, I ease up on the accelerator as I get close to the truck (DSG has now pre-selected or even changed into 6th) then plant foot to pass around. Right now I need 4th and in a manual that's where it'll be. Instead the DSG has just got confused with my accelerating then coasting behaviour. If it behaves just like it does leaving a roundabout, then I've just lost two seconds of power delivery.

The DSG 7sp is a later development than the 6sp, it has dry clutches and a much lower torque rating. It is the one that is embarassing VAG in china.

If you want a DSG bolted to a 2.0 tdi, then it's the older 6sp wet clutch one you get. I haven't driven the 7sp. It's not compatible with the engines I own.

The 6th-3rd change requires three movements and will be very very slow.

1. Start in 6th with 5th preselected.

2. Rapid acceleration means change to 5th. (maybe 0.1 seconds) 6th gear selector can only select even gears, meaning 4th or 2nd.

3. Selects 4th and changes into that. (well over 1 second)

4. Selects 3rd and changes into that. (well over 1 second)

With a manual it's one lever movement. With a smart conventional auto it can also done in just one hit with uninterrupted power.

Booke if you floor the throttle the DSG can complete just one shift in 0.03 seconds. The second shift takes a huge amount longer.

[Felicia racer]

Dsg 7 is quick at multiple downchanges.

I maintain still faster than a manual,

However in D it does behave as you said, shifting up as you coast waiting for the right gap, hence you should be in S or manual mode.

Also depends on what engine is mated to the dsg, the twincharged motor is always on the torque and power. No lag.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

The 6th-3rd change requires three movements and will be very very slow.

1. Start in 6th with 5th preselected.

2. Rapid acceleration means change to 5th. (maybe 0.1 seconds) 6th gear selector can only select even gears, meaning 4th or 2nd.

3. Selects 4th and changes into that. (well over 1 second)

4. Selects 3rd and changes into that. (well over 1 second)

With a manual it's one lever movement. With a smart conventional auto it can also done in just one hit with uninterrupted power.

I am absolutely sure this is wrong. I haven't owned an auto for over 16 years and currently drive a Manual 2005 WRX.

I was a bit sceptical about the DSG but came away from the test drive of the Yeit with a smile. It will change down multiple gears without engaging the intermediate gears. I tried it on my test drive. To go from 6th to 3rd will require the Odd gear shaft to change from 5th to 3rd and then the clutches to swap shafts. There is no change to 5th or 4th. Unless you have DOG engagement on your manual you'll be very hard pressed to change as fast.

If you are going to do a maneuver where you think you'll trick up the AI of the auto, use manual mode.

I don't know how the VW adaptive auto works but I drive a Holden allot at work and often at high speed. The holden adaptive auto works on a point system. the higher the points the faster and more abrupt the changes, the longer it holds gears and the faster it changes down when slowing. Points are added for cornering speed v radius, braking pressure and rate the accelerator is pushed. Points get deducted over time. If you come into a round about hot, brake hard, drive through aggressively and stomp the accelerator, the next round about it will change down as soon you touch the brake and hold the lower gear until red line. Where this system fails is like you say when you have been driving quit sedately and then you want to pass a vehicle quickly. That's easily fixed by selecting manual mode on that odd occasion.

Happy Days.

[Kiwibacon]

Even if you want to use manual mode in a DSG, you cannot control which gear it pre-selects for your next change.

So you can manually select 5th, but you can't control whether it's got 4th or 6th queued up and ready to go next. If you want the one it didn't get, then you have to wait.

If you think the above sequence is wrong, I'd like to see your interpretation of how it can work. Given the restraints that it can't go 6th to 4th or 2nd without using the other shaft and the other shaft has pre-selected 5th.

For many drivers DSG is all they ever want and need. Essentially the perfect box. It all depends on how it's inherent quirks fit with your driving style and usage. For me they don't fit at all. In fact no autos do. I'm perfectly fine with people saying those quirks aren't a problem with their usage. But to claim they don't exist is complete rubbish.

For me, an auto in manual mode is the worst of all worlds. It combines the lag and computer over-rides of an autobox with a selection system that has no physical feedback for what gear you are currently in.

Manual, gearlever is bottom right, that's 6th. I can know that without taking my eyes off the road. Top right, that's 5th. Centre bottom, that's 4th. Etc. In tiptronic you've got to look at the dash display.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

Even if you want to use manual mode in a DSG, you cannot control which gear it pre-selects for your next change.

So you can manually select 5th, but you can't control whether it's got 4th or 6th queued up and ready to go next. If you want the one it didn't get, then you have to wait.

I agree about the pre selection but the time differance is so little it doesn't matter. The reason they take longer to change down than up is the blipping of the throttle to match the engine with the road speed, something a good driver will do in a manual but unlike the computer a human cant match the engine speed perfectly.

For many drivers DSG is all they ever want and need. Essentially the perfect box. It all depends on how it's inherent quirks fit with your driving style and usage. For me they don't fit at all. In fact no autos do. I'm perfectly fine with people saying those quirks aren't a problem with their usage. But to claim they don't exist is complete rubbish.

I think it's just a matter of changing your driving style (if you choose). DSG and CVT gear boxes are the way of the future and getting us closer to the feel of electric cars.

For me, an auto in manual mode is the worst of all worlds. It combines the lag and computer over-rides of an autobox with a selection system that has no physical feedback for what gear you are currently in.

Manual, gearlever is bottom right, that's 6th. I can know that without taking my eyes off the road. Top right, that's 5th. Centre bottom, that's 4th. Etc. In tiptronic you've got to look at the dash display.

If you dont know what gear your in without touching the gear lever or looking at the dash. I suspect you dont really know your car. I'm not trying to offend you and I hope that comment doesnt but a good drive just drives by feel.

You have said a couple of times you dont like how long it takes to change down multipule gears at once. I have had a fair amount of driver training with one course running for 6 weeks straight. I dont recall ever being tought to miss a gear. You should always be in the right gear to match your road speed. As habbit when I pass another vehicle I have changed down and followed the shift pattern well before I reach the vehicle being passed. It's all about forwrad planing.

I dont own a DSG yet but I'm not worried at all about getting one.

Happy Days.

[JR RS]

ur a funny man kiwibacon!

guess the likes of ferrari, audi, lamborghini are all wrong about their choice of DSG and its theories on lightning quick gear changes.