DSG Paddles; yes or no?

[Joel SHOEMARK]

ur a funny man kiwibacon!

guess the likes of ferrari, audi, lamborghini are all wrong about their choice of DSG and its theories on lightning quick gear changes.

Ok. Lets drop the Manual V DSG debate and make this Kiwi V Aussies. LOL

Aussies and DSG are bound to win.

Happy Days.

[Kiwibacon]

Still can't quote, forum still has issues.

Joel, the DSG box doesn't blip the throttle, it simply uses the clutches to pull the engine revs up/down. A feeling I also disliked, but not a big one.

In my octavia, there is about 300-400rpm difference between 5th and 6th at 100km/h (~2200 vs ~1800rpm). You can't "feel" that without looking at the rev counter or gear lever, the engine noise and vibrations are imperceptible at that speed. Tyre noise and vibration is dominant.

We're not talking about an original mini where you can hear and feel exactly what rpm the engine is doing. I suspect your WRX is quite different in the NVH dept than these cars.

Regarding always being in the "right" gear. I am always in the "right" gear in that situation. When crusing and awaiting a passing opportunity, it's 6th gear. When needing the extra acceleration for passing the "right" gear is 4th.

Do you propose I mimick a dsg in those situations and go un-necessarily through 5th? There is no one "right" gear for your road speed, but there is for your next intended driving move. Whether that is passing, cruising, driving uphill, downhill or preparing for the next corner. All situations where you are at the same speed, yet planning something markedly different.

Canberra is very different to where I live and drive.

I don't think we'll see DSG in it's current form in the distant future, it isn't anything like a CVT, it's just an intermediate phase.

JR RS: The "supercars" from Audi, ferrari, lamborghini etc are not driven in the manner normal road cars are. Trying to beat each other's performance specs in the same old tests is their main game.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

Joel, the DSG box doesn't blip the throttle, it simply uses the clutches to pull the engine revs up/down.

It certainly does when you force it to change gears manually. Otherwise you would learch foward in your seat from the engine braking. It may also be deemed unsafe.

I suspect your WRX is quite different in the NVH dept than these cars.

You got that right.

Regarding always being in the "right" gear. I am always in the "right" gear in that situation. When crusing and awaiting a passing opportunity, it's 6th gear. When needing the extra acceleration for passing the "right" gear is 4th.

Do you propose I mimick a dsg in those situations and go un-necessarily through 5th? There is no one "right" gear for your road speed, but there is for your next intended driving move. Whether that is passing, cruising, driving uphill, downhill or preparing for the next corner. All situations where you are at the same speed, yet planning something markedly different.

As I'm cruising along I'm in 5th (5 speed manual WRX). As I appraoch a slower vehicle, I change to 4th and start to slow. I either acclerate and pass or continue to slow and maybe change to 3rd. Always ready to get out of there. So yes I do mimick a DSG in that respect.

Canberra is very different to where I live and drive.

I don't think we'll see DSG in it's current form in the distant future, it isn't anything like a CVT, it's just an intermediate phase.

Yes I aggree the DSG is an interime.

Happy Days

[Kiwibacon]

Yeah 6 speed is a bit different in passing to 5speeds. Both my 5 speeds are also comfortable passing in 4th so only one gear change. It's the 6 speed that puts one gear either side of where 5th is in my other diesels. 5th is so close to 6th that there's no point just dropping one for acceleration.

The only real use I have for 5th is cruising in 70km/h zones. 6th gear is just a shade too tall for 70.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

Yeah 6 speed is a bit different in passing to 5speeds. Both my 5 speeds are also comfortable passing in 4th so only one gear change. It's the 6 speed that puts one gear either side of where 5th is in my other diesels. 5th is so close to 6th that there's no point just dropping one for acceleration.

The only real use I have for 5th is cruising in 70km/h zones. 6th gear is just a shade too tall for 70.

Do you own a DSG?

Happy Days

[Joel SHOEMARK]

Yeah 6 speed is a bit different in passing to 5speeds. Both my 5 speeds are also comfortable passing in 4th so only one gear change. It's the 6 speed that puts one gear either side of where 5th is in my other diesels. 5th is so close to 6th that there's no point just dropping one for acceleration.

The only real use I have for 5th is cruising in 70km/h zones. 6th gear is just a shade too tall for 70.

I haven't seen any ratios quoted for VW DSG boxes. I know that ratios with 6 speed manual boxes both 5th and 6th gear are over drive and 4th is 1:1 ratio.

In the higher ratio boxes like the 8 speed ZF box. Because they will change so fast and easily the multipule ratios are used to keep the motor at either the most economical or power range.

If a driver had a 8 speed manual you'd spend too much time changing gears.

Happy days.

[Kiwibacon]

After all that, do you really think I would own a DSG? After test driving a DSG I went a long way out of my way to find a manual version.

An 8 speed single range manual would be just a little bit silly in a car. 6 is about the sweet spot for a self shifter. Though if I can get a 6 speed into my 4wd it'd technically be a 12 speed.

Some gear ratios here: http://www.skoda.de/...p?e=348-9-5-2-1

Transverse cars don't have a 1:1 ratio like longitudinal layouts have. Beware of the two shafts having two seperate final drive ratios when you are calculating them out.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

After all that, do you really think I would own a DSG? After test driving a DSG I went a long way out of my way to find a manual version.

Some gear ratios here: http://www.skoda.de/...p?e=348-9-5-2-1

Transverse cars don't have a 1:1 ratio like longitudinal layouts have. Beware of the two shafts having two seperate final drive ratios when you are calculating them out.

Thanks for the link.

You seem pretty confident in how bad they are. I thought you might have more experience than a test drive. I think it's just a matter of adjusting your driving to suit DSG. I'm far from being agianst a manual box but I do hate torque converter autos. The biggest reason I have to hate torque converter autos and the same goes for CVT is the disconnection you have between the motor and drive. I just dont feel like I can balance the vehicle on the limit without that connection. Auto boxes always have faster 0-100 times due to their faster shifting. I cant recall any vehicle with both auto and manual that show a faster acceleration time with a manual and the autos are usually heavier. I see the DSG as being the best of both, faster shifting and a direction connection between the motor and drive. DSG boxes have been around for a while now, whilst I understand the early one had some issues they have surpassed manuals in being my preferance. i know I'll have to adjust my driving but I was very impressed with my test drive.

It's a bit like the early days when manufactures started adding things like ABS. I remember the first vehicle I drove with ABS was single channel. When one wheel lost traction as it passed over a small patch of gravel for example, brake pressure was taken from all 4 wheels at the same level. These days each wheel has it's own sensors and pressure, not only do all the other wheels continue to brake at the maximum ability but after the wheel has passed over the low traction spot, brake pressure is then regained.

Happy Days.

Edited 18 November, 2012 by Joel SHOEMARK

[vrs4011]

Definetly get them......they are great when you are on a charge and when you can't be arsed,auto mode allows you to chill out and relax...

Much as I enjoy a manual box,I think they are in the past now and very few cars in the future will feature it..a bit like manual chokes and opening car doors with keys.

[booke23]

After all that, do you really think I would own a DSG? After test driving a DSG I went a long way out of my way to find a manual version.

You don't own one?.....you're kidding....right?

That makes all your DSG related posts in this thread null and void. I wish you'd said earlier.....I wouldn't have wasted so much time arguing about it.

For the record, the DSG absolutely blips the throttle on downshifts.....it does it so well you hardly notice.

Edited 18 November, 2012 by booke23

[Kiwibacon]

Joel, I find my distaste for torque converter autos is strongly linked to how many gears they've got.

At the four gear mark they all suck, not enough gear ratios so they spend too much time unlocked and stirring oil.

At 5 speeds they are a little better, 6 speed is where they finally feel usable.

But even with 6 speed there's a big gap between how good or bad they can feel. The best 6 speeds I have driven were Mondeo tdci and Landrover disco/RRS. These shuffled gears the least and locked up the most. The hyundai ix35 6sp, not so much. More slush and hunting.

For me I could live with a decent 6 speed auto if I had to, but I think 8 speed is the point where I'd be okay with it. I'd far rather a 6 speed manual but the lack of that option wouldn't make me turn down a new rangerover.

Booke, you're a funny guy.

Have you ever got all psyched up to buy a brand new car, taken one for a test drive and find the gearbox was something you just couldn't live with? Do you really think I'd find the short comings of a DSG box were show-stoppers for my usage and still drop $NZ60k on the car?

Such a shame these emoticons are broken right now.

[booke23]

Booke, you're a funny guy.

Have you ever got all psyched up to buy a brand new car, taken one for a test drive and find the gearbox was something you just couldn't live with? Do you really think I'd find the short comings of a DSG box were show-stoppers for my usage and still drop $NZ60k on the car?

I don't blame you for not buying a car you didn't like. I wouldn't.

But your total experience of DSG amounts to a half hour test drive. In my book that makes you totally unqualified to give an opinion of DSG.

Such a shame these emoticons are broken right now.

.......they're working fine!............(now that's funny)

[Kiwibacon]

So problems found in a test drive magically don't exist when you own a car?

So DSG gets confused in roundabouts and takes 2 seconds to sort it's **** out. It's perfectly okay for an owner to point that out. But it's not in any way acceptable for someone who was test-driving a car to point that out?

You can read all about the posting problems, including emoticons, quoting and editing in the "forum issues" section. For several users this forum spends more time broken than fully functioning.

[dunc69]

Fun thread. DSG vs Manual almost as much fun as Petrol vs Diesel.

Add in Aussie vs NZ and you've got added spice!

Either way, DSG rules! And so does petrol. So there!

[booke23]

So problems found in a test drive magically don't exist when you own a car?

So DSG gets confused in roundabouts and takes 2 seconds to sort it's **** out. It's perfectly okay for an owner to point that out. But it's not in any way acceptable for someone who was test-driving a car to point that out?

My DSG does not behave like you describe. Maybe the demonstrator you drove was stuffed......maybe you were driving it funny.....I don't know.

I stand by what I said in post #62. I'm not gonna argue any more about it with you.

[Joel SHOEMARK]

......maybe you were driving it funny.....

I think that's our answer right there. Autos require a different driving style. It has to be something you do subconsously. It's similar to driving a laggy Turbo. The WRX is by no means laggy but you get in a habbit without even knowing it. You look a little further ahead and know when you want the power to come on and you've pushed the acceleraor that split seond earlier to compensate. You know how the car feels and what to expect. You couldn't get that in a half hour test drive. I probably do as many KM in Automatic work cars as I do my own so I knew a little of what to expect a my test drive.

Maybe "Kiwibacon" you need someone who knows what they're doing to take you for a drive.

Happy Days.

Happy Days.

[Kiwibacon]

Is it:

A) You've got the one magical DSG that doesn't get confused by roundabouts?

You've never noticed?

[zei20t]

mines fine in roundabouts. Ive confused my DSG probably twice, and you know what the problem was? me. it comes down to drive input. they are surprisingly predictive and with some minor changes to your driving style, they are a dream to drive - IMO of course.

[Kiwibacon]

Joel, I've driven more auto vehicles than manuals. Like you I've spent a large number of km's driving a lot of work vehicles, friends auto vehicles, relations auto vehicles and I've even owned a few autos myself. I'm familiar with all the tricks to get them to change up, change down and stay in lockup. Also pre-empting the lag so you can get through that gap in the traffic. I even modified the last one I owned with a manual over-ride switch on the torque converter lockup solenoid.

But ultimately I sold the last automatic car solely because it was automatic. Every other part of the car I liked, but the transmission killed it. It took that much intervention to try and keep it in the gear it should be in when driving in the places that it mattered most, that it was absolutely terrible to drive in those situations. When pootling around on the flat it was fine.

So I sold it to someone who lived in a flat city (who loves it) and bought another manual car.

As you'll be aware, kickdown on autos is triggered off throttle position. As you may not be aware, full throttle at max torque rpm is the most efficient operating point for a diesel. So the most fuel efficient way to climb any hill in a diesel is in the highest gear it'll pull at close to full throttle.

Autos don't let you do that. Well actually some of the ZF ones will hold a selected gear under full throttle. But they're almost an exception.

Here is a situation that living in Australia you'll never have experienced.

Non turbo automatic vehicle. Climbing a hill at altitude.

Because of the altitude, air density is lower and power/torque lower in proportion. The car has lost ~15% of it's torque. Because of this throttle openings have to be larger to get enough torque to pull up the hill.

The increased throttle opening is read by the auto as an acceleration request, so it unlocks the torque converter, chops down a gear and the engine revs it's head off. Fuel consumption doubles.

In the same car as a manual, the car is in 4th and the throttle is down as far as you need it to be. No unwanted chopping and changing of gears, no unlocked TC and no doubling the fuel consumption.

Now here is how I can drive the manual skoda.

I look ahead, I read the road and the traffic. I select the gear I want and it stays there until I change it.

Simple huh?

It's also got the side effects of costing less to buy originally, having higher resale value, having lower fuel consumption (both real world and standard drive cycles), cheaper servicing, less frequent servicing and being far more reliable.

But above all, it's far more fun to drive.

Sure I'll be up for a clutch and DMF change at some point. But those DSG owners have a DMF too.

[meta55b]

I can understand where people are coming from when they say they don't like the dsg boxes. I drive 2 Saab 95 autos, a evouqe auto plus freelander 2 and a transporter dsg. I would say the transporter is the hardest to drive about town and by far not the smoothest, on the open road it's seamless. My boss loves it i can take it or leave it.

[zei20t]

so take the 'automatic' part out of the DSG and pretend you can only use the paddles to shift. is it still crap because you're not selecting the gear you want similarly to a manual transmission?

[Kiwibacon]

Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

[jrw]

I can confirm that it will change from 6th to 4th much faster than anyone could manually. This is either using kickdown function or the paddles. In fact the kick down function i reckon is slightly faster.

[Perc]

I find my DSG7 to be a bit more difficult in stop and go traffic than a normal automatic. You have to know how to treat the accelerator to make it slip the clutch just right. It can also be jerky if you have to brake juuust as it's about to completely engage the clutch. A normal automatic is always in gear, makes things a lot smoother.

During normal acceleration it's seamless though. Love it, love it.

[Jockdooshbag]

I gave up reading some posts in this thread as they were sooooo looonnngggg.

Auto or manual comes down to 1 thing - personal preference. I love DSG and traditinal autos but i still like manula cars. Manual cars are a pain in stop strat traffic but are fine everywhere else. Autos are bound to have shorcomings as they do try to "predict" what we want but these shotcomings are preferrable to me compared to using a clutch pedal and having to keep swapping gears ,manually in town. My DSG has never taken 2 seconds to sort itself out at a roundabout even if i totally confuse it it still reacts plenty fast enough and certainly fast enough for any situation im likely to encounter on the road.

I can see why a manual would be some people choice but you do get used to autos and everyone i have known who hated them have ended up preferring them once they got used to them.

Just becuase someone prefers a manual to DSG does not make him the enemy or equally does not make DSG a bad gearbox. Horses for courses but some of the points made about DSG boxes regarding time delayes and the like dont ring true to me as i have owned 2 and i have never encountered any such issues or moments of confusion.

Edited 20 November, 2012 by Jockdooshbag