Going Electric... Richard's EV thread.

[domhnall]

I'm sure I read on the nissan site that BG are doing free installs?

[Dave89]

I'm sure I read on the nissan site that BG are doing free installs?

 

I believe that is for 16A charging.  Think it'd be more worthwhile for a 32A version and half the charge time which is where I got the £95/£99 install price from.  That should do flat to 100% in around 2 hours 30/40 mins.

[BossFox]

I believe that is for 16A charging.  Think it'd be more worthwhile for a 32A version and half the charge time which is where I got the £95/£99 install price from.  That should do flat to 100% in around 2 hours 30/40 mins.

 

16A on the LEAF is aprox 10-12 miles per hour of charging. (home charging at 10A is about 7-8 miles per hour)

32A on the Gen2 with the right option is obviously therefore 20-24.

[BossFox]

Autocar drive Tesla Model S

 

 

[Yeti_Man]

So now you've had some time with it Richard, how are you liking the new one? interested to hear how you feel the gen 1 and gen 2 cars compare in particular? The indicated range certainly seems more accurate on the new one and the cornering/ride is now pretty impressive IMO. I think the Tekna with the leather and Bose is also a very nice place to be but as you've spent more time with the gen 1 do you think it's near enough 15k better than the bargain 3,000 mile example that are around for less than 12k? I got offered an unused pre reg gen 1 for 15k this morning and I reckon there may even be £500 wiggle room in that so its certainly making me think!

[Dave89]

^ Ha I've just come to ask a similar question after spending the last hour reading more into the Leaf.

 

I know on the drive back home from picking the 2nd gen up, you had 85% charge and managed 75? miles with a small percentage remaining.  I'm wondering if I should just buy a Tekna 2nd Gen now since they're appearing for around 17.5/18K with just a few hundred miles on.  That might be 5-6K more than used, but if things have really improved (efficient heating and cooling and importantly, range) it's probably making more sense.  I'd really like to think that I could do 82 miles on the Leaf if I needed to because A] I couldn't charge at the park and ride near work B] I don't have time to divert to a Welcome Break for a rapid charge.

 

Plus the black leather and better wheels are really singing for me.

 

DECISIONS   - At least I've got a few months to decide, what with only starting the new job in a new location at the end of this month.  However the longer I commute in the Derv, the quicker by outgoings will spiral!

[Yeti_Man]

From what I've seen this weekend in a gen 2 90 miles is realistic - which I'm impressed with.

[Dave89]

From what I've seen this weekend in a gen 2 90 miles is realistic - which I'm impressed with.

 

That would really tick the box! I'd want the car to serve me well for 4-5 years since I expect to gain little resale value based on the age and mileage (100K) racked up on the battery (or charge cycles).  Saying that, if the car looses 20% of it's capacity at say 60K or 3 years old, I'm down to 72 miles with that potentially dropping even further.  So maybe I am better buying a 1st gen, saving some cash and just factoring in a 15-30 minute rapid charge as part of my commute on the return journey.

 

It all comes down to time VS money.  Stick with the oil burner and literally burn my hard earned cash away on commuting, or stick it in a new car, deal with rapid charging as part of the commute and actually save roughly 6-7K over four years VS the derv.

 

Richard, I believe you are selling your 2nd gen once your Model S arrives in the Uk in circa 6 months time?  What do you expect to sell for come that point?  From looking at 1st gens, depreciation seems high and rapid but of course, is offset by the 85% saving in fuel.

 

Yeti_Man, what would the primary use for your EV be and do you think you'll be sticking with the Yeti too?

[Yeti_Man]

That would really tick the box! I'd want the car to serve me well for 4-5 years since I expect to gain little resale value based on the age and mileage (100K) racked up on the battery (or charge cycles). Saying that, if the car looses 20% of it's capacity at say 60K or 3 years old, I'm down to 72 miles with that potentially dropping even further. So maybe I am better buying a 1st gen, saving some cash and just factoring in a 15-30 minute rapid charge as part of my commute on the return journey.

It all comes down to time VS money. Stick with the oil burner and literally burn my hard earned cash away on commuting, or stick it in a new car, deal with rapid charging as part of the commute and actually save roughly 6-7K over four years VS the derv.

Richard, I believe you are selling your 2nd gen once your Model S arrives in the Uk in circa 6 months time? What do you expect to sell for come that point? From looking at 1st gens, depreciation seems high and rapid but of course, is offset by the 85% saving in fuel.

Yeti_Man, what would the primary use for your EV be and do you think you'll be sticking with the Yeti too?

It's a similar situation to mine. I'd be replacing my run around Fiesta 1.6 TDCi and even though the fiesta does 56mpg in town and only costs £30 to tax per year the Leaf still offers cheaper motoring. Servicing of the Leaf is about £120 for the first one and £200 thereafter from what the dealer told me today - thats actually more than i hoped and more than the Fiesta costs even with its twice yearly oil services i carry out. However, considering the reliability of the Fiesta has been 100% since new and only has 46,000 miles on the clock and therefore I have no reason to suspect it will start costing me any more money that it does currently in the near future.... Spending 11-22k on a new Leaf just to gain better mileage/range could be looked at as a false 'saving' £11,000 pays for a lot of diesel!! With the Leaf however I'd be in the lucky position of not having to pay for the charging so effectively I'd be covering any miles for free - probably around 12,000 of them. The daily commute is 10 miles either way with little trips for shopping and popping round to family and friends included during the week. Realistically I'd probably have to charge it every couple of days. We'd also start using the Leaf for journeys that we'd normally just jump into the Yeti for ie when the whole family needs to go to friends and family that live a little further out - say 25 and 30 miles away so a 60 mile round trip. After comparing the two generation of Leaf now fairily extensively I'd also be wanting to go for the gen 2 model (due to leather, Bose, surround view, mechanical ratchet handbrake and range improvements) so the initial investment would need to be far higher than the 11k.... Lots of food for thought.

[BossFox]

If I do end up with a Tesla, the LEAF will probably go.

I'd expect to get about £18-£19k for it against a list price after grant of £25-£26k after 6 months or so.

I have to say, in terms of value for money the Gen1 car is the better buy and is still quite well equipped.

Of course the Gen2 is better, but it does the same job with a better winter range.

Is that worth £10k+ more... Not unless you need the extra 10 miles in winter.

All the other extras are mostly toys. It still does the same job.

[mdk1]

Can't wait to see it with its new plate on!

[BossFox]

Don't forget, unlike Gen1 cars which includes the battery some Gen2 cars are sold with the battery and some are sold £5k cheaper with a battery lease.

So you need to check what you are getting carefully when comparing prices.

[Yeti_Man]

Don't forget, unlike Gen1 cars which includes the battery some Gen2 cars are sold with the battery and some are sold £5k cheaper with a battery lease.

So you need to check what you are getting carefully when comparing prices.

Of course, the flex models don't include batteries. There's probably an argument to buy the batteries outright if you plan to keep the car for five years or more given the fact they appear to be very reliable and on average mileage, at five years, would be costing just over 5.5k to lease. There are some major bargains out there it appears and my gut feeling is buy a gen 1 as a 'toe in the water'. I do however way prefer the suspension setup on the gen 2 cars - I'm surprised you don't seem to differentiate in this area Richard? At the end of the day I guess if I made the jump I could always but a gen 1, have the Nismo suspension kit installed and get it leathered up for a couple of k.

[Dave89]

The flex doesn't appeal to me, the monthly rental for 15K annual miles is £130 and I'll probably exceed that.  You do make very good points about the 1st gen value for money.  

 

I must say Yeti_Man, I think your situation is a more difficult one to convince in terms of a Leaf purchase.  Reliable, relatively new, cheap to run TDCi Fiesta and a practical Yeti.  When calculating my savings, I compare running, maintenance, tax, service and the cost of the car over a 4 year period/80K miles.  A used 1st Gen leaf is a clear winner, a used 2nd Gen Tekna is still a winner but only marginally.  I guess if you're chopping in the Fiesta, it'll hopefully absorb some of the purchase price of the Leaf.

 

I'm really interested to see what you end up buying, if you end up buying a Leaf!

 

I watched this yesterday 

 

[Terribly cheesy but useful for anyone who hasn't test driven or seen a Leaf in the flesh]

[BossFox]

Regards the suspension, the Gen1 is softer and more comfort focused.

But it still does the same job.

Both models do have a number of differences, but it would be an awfully long post to compare all the changes.

I enjoyed driving the Gen1, it was like floating around on a cloud where the Gen2 is closer in feel to a regular car. But I'd happily drive either.

[Yeti_Man]

That's really interesting. No doubt about it, the gen 1 is softer and more wafty but I far prefer the reduced lean in corners of the gen 2. At higher speeds I think the difference is most obvious in terms of the suspension control. Either does the basic job however and the range isn't that much improved from what I've seen this weekend tbh. Having said that I guess the range difference will be more obvious in the winter given the major redesign of the heating system. Think my next move will be to try for a five day test drive of the gen 1.

[BossFox]

I'm starting to see the benefit of the extras fitted to the Gen2 Tekna.

Set off for work today with a battery level of 52% and a predicted range of 50 miles.
Drove 40 miles on 60% open road and 40% traffic. Took an hour and twenty minutes.
Arrived with 12% of the battery left and a predicted range of 11 miles.
I couldn't do that in the Gen1, it would have used more of the battery up.  (Aprox 5% IMO, more if I'd needed the heater)

I am putting a fair amount of that down to the better regenerative braking.

Also the temp was +8c rising to +10c, but didn't need the heater as I just switched the heated seat on low.

Not bad, normal use in the dark and occasional rain with lights on all the way as still only used 40% of the battery to travel 40 miles.

 

 

 

If going for the Gen1 I'd suggest heated seats for the winter, if you can find someone to do them at a decent price.

That and the mod to seperate the air-con and heater functions.

[domhnall]

Or buy yours when the tesla arrives :-)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4

[Yeti_Man]

I'm starting to see the benefit of the extras fitted to the Gen2 Tekna.

Set off for work today with a battery level of 52% and a predicted range of 50 miles.

Drove 40 miles on 60% open road and 40% traffic. Took an hour and twenty minutes.

Arrived with 12% of the battery left and a predicted range of 11 miles.

I couldn't do that in the Gen1, it would have used more of the battery up.  (Aprox 5% IMO, more if I'd needed the heater)

I am putting a fair amount of that down to the better regenerative braking.

Also the temp was +8c rising to +10c, but didn't need the heater as I just switched the heated seat on low.

Not bad, normal use in the dark and occasional rain with lights on all the way as still only used 40% of the battery to travel 40 miles.

 

 

 

If going for the Gen1 I'd suggest heated seats for the winter, if you can find someone to do them at a decent price.

That and the mod to seperate the air-con and heater functions.

 Another useful real life post, thanks. The way that the gen 1 and gen 2 calculate the remaining range seemed different to me. The gen 2 more realistically so. Did you do the above drive in B mode or normal drive mode out of interest? I may sound like a tight ass but Im still convinced Id only want to jump in as far as a gen 1 car for 11k - so around 6k once the part ex is taken into consideration. Then theres the 6k to make back in savings of course...  may take some time as I havent done the detailed maths yet. I do however agree that the Tekna is a better. more luxurious environment to be in than a gen 1 car. Also not entirely convinced of the beige interior of a gen 1 as a family car in general terms.

[BossFox]

Where the Gen1 car had D and D-eco I always drove in ECO unless I needed to zip off of the lights.

Pressing the accelerator hard enough meant you didn't really need to change between the modes very often.

 

In the Gen2 car with D and B mode, both of which can have Eco on and off (so effectively giving you four different driving modes) I find I am driving in B-Eco all the time.  The Eco button is on the steering wheel, so if I get to an uphill slip road etc.. I just take Eco off, zip up the slipway to 60mpg so I can merge and switch it back on.

 

Driving like this I am using the brakes less than in the Gen1.  Which probably explains the extra range I am getting and the fact I have people up my trumpet as I still believe for legal reasons the brake lights don't activate unless you actually press the brake pedal.

I would be quite happy if this last point could be altered.

 

I would like the brake lights on at 50% regen or more, because it's the equal of changing down about two gears in a diesel and far more deceleration than you can get in any petrol.

[BossFox]

In relation to the other point Yeti-Man, the Gen2 car seems more accurate at guessing the range.

I've never got in it and it's said over 100 miles.

Where the Gen1 car used to say I had 110(ish) when fully charged.

So as well as the Gen2 being a little bit more efficient it always guesses the range about 10% lower.

 

That never bothered me in the Gen1, I just mentally took 20% off to be sure.

[Yeti_Man]

In relation to the other point Yeti-Man, the Gen2 car seems more accurate at guessing the range.

I've never got in it and it's said over 100 miles.

Where the Gen1 car used to say I had 110(ish) when fully charged.

So as well as the Gen2 being a little bit more efficient it always guesses the range about 10% lower.

 

That never bothered me in the Gen1, I just mentally took 20% off to be sure.

Thats been exactly my findings with the two cars but ive only had the gen 1 for two days - Im trying to get it for a full week to see if it suits my pattern in real life. I still think that with the price difference between the gen 1 and Tekna (the one id have to have tbh) is fairly minor in the grand scheme of things and wise thinking regrading winter usage (ie pre heating while its still on the mains before leaving in the morning and then just have the heater ticking over from the already warmed tank) shouldnt be a big enough issue to cause me range problems. Hopefully!

 

Out of interest, if you were to die mid trip, can the Leaf be towed like a conventional car? Also, the different cards you need for some of the charging points - do you have to purchase the cards or are they free? Thats the final bit of the jigsaw ive not looked at yet.

[BossFox]

Out of interest, if you were to die mid trip, can the Leaf be towed like a conventional car? Also, the different cards you need for some of the charging points - do you have to purchase the cards or are they free? Thats the final bit of the jigsaw ive not looked at yet.

 

I'm honestly not sure, I believe if you kill the battery it needs to be moved on a flatbed.

But if you have some charge left you can put it in Neutral, so could move it a short distance by towing.

I wonder if you could then put it back in gear and use the regen to charge the battery while being towed?

 

There are various cards out there.

I only have the Ecotricty one for the Rapid Chargers at motorway services (and soon to be every Ikea) as it suits my use.

The electric is free and the card is... free.

[Yeti_Man]

I'm honestly not sure, I believe if you kill the battery it needs to be moved on a flatbed.

But if you have some charge left you can put it in Neutral, so could move it a short distance by towing.

I wonder if you could then put it back in gear and use the regen to charge the battery while being towed?

 

There are various cards out there.

I only have the Ecotricty one for the Rapid Chargers at motorway services (and soon to be every Ikea) as it suits my use.

The electric is free and the card is... free.

Just seems to get better and better then....

 

My only concerns would be in the future. Surely all of these places offering free battery charging will start to charge the customer. It would be nice to think that they base it on a business model of 'while you come in and spend money with us we'll keep the power points free' but like many examples, I think they'll try to earn out of the consumer at every opportunity in the future. On the flip side of that though, I actually think that the bargain almost new Teknas for under 20k and the 2012 gen 1 cars (even with just 800-3300 miles on the clock) at 11-12k are a bargain and once the infrastructure gets to a point and the EV way of thinking is more accepted, the values of these cars may even firm up.

[BossFox]

I expect prices of the Gen1 cars to stop falling purely because they are now two years old and are not going wrong.

Everyone seemed to think the batteries would die after three years, just like in laptops.  But the scare stories appear to be seriously unfounded.

 

At some point people have got to realise that these cars are cheap and cost peanuts to run!

 

I expect in maybe three to five years the charging stations will become on a pay per use basis.  Like £4-5 per pop for a charge that'll get you 70 or 80 miles.

But I don't think that'll happen until EVs get a lot more popular.