Thinking of buying vRS/Downgrading from Mazda mk1 Mps 3

[Furbytom]

I also do not think it needs any modifications

Jabo weren't you planning to design some mad charge-cooler for the vRS not so long back?! Lol

I think I can see why vRSy might be annoyed if you are critical of various mods without any experience of modding it yourself....

[vRSy]

Not annoyed, more irritated at the ignorance of it.

[Jabozuma]

Jabo weren't you planning to design some mad charge-cooler for the vRS not so long back?! Lol

I think I can see why vRSy might be annoyed if you are critical of various mods without any experience of modding it yourself....

I still am, just bought first batch materials . This charge conditioning system is not necessarily for performance apps, albeit it will allow exploits now only possible with wet nitrous systems. It will also reduce emissions of NOx and save fuel quite a lot, especially winter time:). Small hint - what engine type is F1 going to use next year?

The point I am trying to make is not something which comes from my village idiot mind's brain storming session. I merely try to present the facts as taught by mechanical engineers specializing in a particular field of automotive engineering - here braking systems. All I can do is read it, understand it and apply to real life situations as opposed to follow the herding instincts .

I do not do the mods as I see no value in them. For £2k I can get fully kitted high power four stroke racing go-kart second hand which will pi$$ all over any car on any UK track while pulling up to 5gs cornering - that is more than F1 cars do! No car can even come close to that for no money. What is the point then? Now I have a car I bought new for £15k (to stay on topic) which has the latest in transmission technology, 1.4 twin charged engine with exceptional power to capacity ratio carried around in a very acceptable chassis for fast road use. Not to mention tax, insurance, frugality if I want to, big boot and 5 doors . There is nothing on the market able to touch this package as a whole. Mazda 3 MPS is a fantastic car, very family friendly with massive power ( was driven around Thruxton in it with BTCC driver behind the wheel) but too expensive too run... If I could afford to run it I'd snap it up in no time!

Just to give you an example of misconceptions re brake overheating and larger rotors/multiple caliper systems. Higher fading resistance is not due to "greater mass of metal to dissipate(...)" *sigh*. Mass does not dissipate anything, quite to the contrary, it is acting as a thermal accumulator providing thermal stability by KEEPING thermal energy. The amount of surface and its shape, materials properties and porosity (boundary layer) decides about the heat dissipation. The real reason why larger brake discs and multiple caliper systems are less prone to "brake fade" is completely different. Heat dissipation areas are only marginally larger. One could improve it by grooving disc, drilling them, having a ventilated cavity in the middle or by installing aerodynamic devices on the wheels. What is actually happening with bigger diameter discs is physics 101. Larger diameter discs require far smaller pressure exerted by the calipers. Multiply it by larger number of calipers and larger surface area and forces are substantially smaller. This is directly proportional to the amount of thermal energy generated by friction while braking so brakes stay cooler-simples. So big brake kit should be set up correctly to provide the same amount of braking torque as OEM kit if car driven on OEM tyres by reducing pressure exerted by calipers.

What people are doing installing bigger rotors and multiple caliper setups without changing tyres to grippier ones is simply shifting brake bias forward and increasing overall braking distance - I did not make it up, read that article I linked to!

I am not entirely sure if EBD on vRS is adaptable enough to cope with that and redistribute braking force accordingly changing brake bias to fully use such a big brake setup. If it is then Sy will indeed see a massive difference and will indeed stop earlier. This I do not know and it needs to be simply tested by measuring braking distances with OEM and modified setup all else equal.

Another misconception is that better brakes are needed with more power. No, they are not. They are needed if you are braking from much higher speeds or if your car is heavier. Now think about how road cars are designed. They need to stop while carrying full complement of passengers... I think conclusions are obvious . How often do you bomb along public roads at 160mph? Not many tracks would allow you to do that either...

Then think about lowering the center of gravity (suspension mods) and stiffening the car. Less dynamic mass transfer occurs and rear brake bias is strengthened - upgrade to rear brakes NOT FRONT is needed to take advantage of this.

Another common misconception is within comments by people who spend ££££ on front brakes. It boils down to a simple statement: " car feels rock solid under braking and I have so much more control now!". This is true, they do, and this is due to brake bias shifted to the front which results in such car behavior characteristics under braking (again, read the article). They do not realize their braking distance has lengthened.

But hey, "millions of flies cannot be wrong"

[Furbytom]

Dude you need to get out more! ;-)

In all seriousness people mod motors for all sorts of reasons, mainly because they enjoy it and want to make their car different from the herd. I don't think getting bogged down in the nitty gritty of engineering theory read on the Internet is going to change that for most people!

@the OP (if he hasn't already run a mile lol) - go on get a vRS you won't be disappointed, it's cracking value for the performance on offer. I doubt it will feel a million miles slower than the MPS. My prev focus ST want that much quicker.

That is all.

[pipsyp]

I think the Fabia vRS is a good value proposition but quite frankly seeing as theres a fair bit of bickering going on here anyway I dont think its unreasonable to say outrightly that the car really isnt that fantastic to drive from a stop and steer perspective as standard and Skoda quite frankly didnt or couldnt go to the lengths that Seat and VW were allowed to with their offerings.

For most people just looking for a good value, good quality quickish hatchback that can provide some excitement when not driven into the ground it a motor that certianly meets the approval of most people; in fact i am sure most owners will conceed that its not fantastic in these areas but make allowances for it based upon how they drive, where they drive and what they are prepared to pay for and do to a car.

I have enough respect for Si, he had the balls to take this fairly average car when barely a few weeks old, say balls to the warranty and accepted the challenge to make it about as good as it could be in his eyes; something id have loved to have done to mine if I wasnt so warranty paranoid and had the cash (and more importantly financial approval!) to go nuts on it.

Not many people have a twincharged Fabia capable of pushing towards the 300hp mark when running properly, capable of running sub 5 secs 0-60 with the chassis and braking mods to pull it all together. I would LOVE a car like that even if it did break occasionally. Or perhaps should he have left the brakes and suspension alone andspent his track days with brakes smoking sat in the run offs?......

I think the OP needs facts; the Fabia is good value but compared to its Seat and VW brethren it doesnt drive so great unless you pay some attention to the suspension at least and also preferably the brakes; remapping will be a risk as its hit or miss whether your twincharger will prove reliable and if you muck about with it there will be no warranty to save you just a big hole in your pocket whwn it needs putting right; thats whats happening to Si right now but he knew the risks more or less from the start and hes even fed up now and getting shot; all the same he has to be commended for creating one truely one off Fabia VRS fair play to you sir! :-)

[Jabozuma]

Dude you need to get out more! ;-)

In all seriousness people mod motors for all sorts of reasons, mainly because they enjoy it and want to make their car different from the herd. I don't think getting bogged down in the nitty gritty of engineering theory read on the Internet is going to change that for most people!

@the OP (if he hasn't already run a mile lol) - go on get a vRS you won't be disappointed, it's cracking value for the performance on offer. I doubt it will feel a million miles slower than the MPS. My prev focus ST want that much quicker.

That is all.

Absolutely, be different from the herd - I like that

Ultimately no amount of science and theory can make up for crap driving skills. Conversely If one likes a car following a test drive ( I loved Octy 3 despite being aware how crappy the chassis and suspension was, even compared to "deficient" Fabia MK2 vRS) so it is ALWAYS down to personal preference based on seat-of-your-pants feeling and this is how it should be. I can launch into psychological comparisons with horse-rider relationships but I suspect that would be stronger than morphine LOL

[Littlebull]

@ the OP

A facelift Mk2 Octavia vRS with the later 2.0TSI engine will o 40mpg + on the motorway, with reasonable tax of abou just over half the price of the MPS and with the downpipe and remap our looking at 280Hp but with a really wide power band and shed loads of torque. Add a K04 turbo from the S3 and power wil fly upto 370-380hp. Add to that the better interior and more acomplished chassis id say its a better option than the Fabia vRS.

Hmmm I've not actually considered that to be honest but it's worth while considering.

[Littlebull]

I also do not think it needs any modifications unless you want this car to do 1/4 mile meets or track it on regular basis. Start modding it and you will increase your insurance markedly, void warranty and risk eating into safety margins to the point of destruction. Then bills mount up.

Also, have you had a chance to test drive it WITHOUT a dealer sitting next you yet?

I test drove it when it first came out but no the sad sack sales man who generally from my experience no naff! all about cars was sat next to me so I could push it very much. Hence I couldn't get any feel from it really.

[Jabozuma]

In my book it it is not possible to get proper track like thrills on public roads for obvious reasons. Then if you want the real speed experiences try go-karting. A car you drive everyday cannot be a track weapon, pointless. Unless you are into masochism that is . Maybe I like my creature comforts too much... If you want REAL driving experience start from trying out Club100 system. If you can do 1 hr testing session and end up without severe muscle spasms and lactic acid poisoning for a week than hats off to you sir for your supreme fitness! |You passed the test !

Ask for an extended test drive, preferably over a weekend. They should be able to accommodate you and you will get all the feel for the car you can can stomach

[Littlebull]

In my book it it is not possible to get proper track like thrills on public roads for obvious reasons. Then if you want the real speed experiences try go-karting. A car you drive everyday cannot be a track weapon, pointless. Unless you are into masochism that is . Maybe I like my creature comforts too much... If you want REAL driving experience start from trying out Club100 system. If you can do 1 hr testing session and end up without severe muscle spasms and lactic acid poisoning for a week than hats off to you sir for your supreme fitness! |You passed the test !

Ask for an extended test drive, preferably over a weekend. They should be able to accommodate you and you will get all the feel for the car you can can stomach

I don't know what Club100 is to be honest!?!? What is it???

As for the extended test drive that's NOT a bad idea at all!!! Think ill deffo look at that. I'm not the type of person you can sell to. I'm very methodical and like to have all the facts and figures in front of me or in the back of my mind prior to actually buying (anything big purchase wise).

[vRSy]

I did a review of the first trackday that i took the Fabia too if your interested in how they track.

Tyres, suspension and brakes were stock. Power was 210Hp

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/209555-the-furby-has-lost-her-track-virginity/

[Littlebull]

I'd just like to say a big thank you to all of you that have replied. I honestly wasn't expecting so many replys! I have read everything you have all said and would like to thank vRSy as you have been most informative.

Someone or a few of you have mentioned about track days etc and yes this is something I would like to do again as I have been on one in my MPS and I absolutely loved it and will do it again at some point. I'm seriously consider Elvington in August (near York) as I've been round Donnington once now.

Hence why I'm keen to make sure the handling is (spot on) regarding the LSD etc as my MPS has one as standard.

This will be my everyday runner too so I don't want to go OTT! With mods but I'm very surprised about the performance 0-60 this car can do as standard and modded (that you've all claimed).

My MPS by the books says 6.1 to 60 but I've had low 5's with no mods what so ever etc!

As for who ever mentioned visiting a chiropractor! Don't buy a mk1 MPS 3 Sports Aero Kit version then because I own one and yes I do have a tight back lol!

I did enjoy my mk1 fabia vrs before and had that remapped to 172bhp with upgraded clutch, suspension, bushes, filter, brakes and more but I ultimately wanted more power and a quicker car so I bought what I currently have now but it's costing me too much and I'm on 10k less a year due to change of career.

Hence I need a cheaper car to run but diesel wise there's naff all about (newish) that I can afford that's worth while considering. I've looked at the Ibiza 2.0 tdi FR but the interior/cabin is more bland than a No Frills DIY shop! If I had the cash I'd buy a BMW 125d (power, luxury and performance) but I don't have 30k spare lol.

Seriously though guys thank you. You've definately pricked my ears up to go for a test drive at the least!

Edited 4 April, 2013 by Littlebull

[vRSy]

No worries buddy. Theres plenty of us on here wh have tweaked our cars if you ned info. P1tt8ull is another good member who has alot of experience wth this platform. Not seen him on here for a while though.

Weirdly, i could be tempted to do the opposite and buy a 3MPS myself for some tweakage. Great spec and interior. LSD already fitted. Some decent suspension, brakes and ARBs and it'd be a corker I think. A remap really opens the top end of the engine up on the MPS especially above 5500rpm. My mates gained something like 30Hp peak0 gains but at 6500rpm the gain was 85Hp!! ALthogh ive always had something for the 6MPS. Very nearly bought one before the Fabia.

But i need to stop looking at Autotrader pretty sharpish beforei buy something on impulse lol.

[Littlebull]

I did a review of the first trackday that i took the Fabia too if your interested in how they track.

Tyres, suspension and brakes were stock. Power was 210Hp

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/209555-the-furby-has-lost-her-track-virginity/

Very interesting reading! Expect a PM tomorrow as ill probably be visiting a dealership V soon!

[vRSy]

Surprisingly good in the wet at Mallory as well, my mate took some vids on his IPhone

Heres some vids my mate managed to get of me.

Apologiesfor the pants music onthis first one, I was messing around with youtube video editerand saved it over the original by accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3u4s7iDorY&context=C3d8ddf5ADOEgsToPDskLT-VOgbmMT2CqXhU8JmkGB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQqtAJnxNO0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[vRSy]

Some more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT8iYLEgJZA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt-jCwsTF90&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[vRSy]

We did some calibration work on the stage 3 setup at Silverstone as well to see how it performed on track, a few limp modes towards the end of the day that hadnt appeared on the dyno or road, hence why you test on track as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP4tHBrx6kM

[Littlebull]

Ill have a look at these after work!

[Ootohere]

re P1tt8ull,

was his engines not one of the other tuned Twinchargers that went wrong after some modifying & Remapping from REVO?

Any updates on that?

george

[vRSy]

His didnt so much go wrong from what i remember. His REVO map was causing issues. He wnr to a custom remap and from what I gather all the issues went away.

Edit >> Here <<

[Ootohere]

There was more recent stuff in this and the Performance Upgrades section, but that posts seem to have disappeared.

Are there any Twinchargers owned by Members here that are tuned beyond Stage 1, that have not given up the ghost?

or in other words, ended up in a puff of white or black smoke!

george

[vRSy]

oh right. Ive not seen them. Theres no doubting though that the 1.4TSI is far to fragile when it comes to tuning and modifications when compared to the 1.8TSI, 2.0TFSI, 2.0TSI, and 2.5TFSI which are practically bullet proof with only minor changes required to achieve in excess of 100Hp+ reliably.

[Jabozuma]

There was more recent stuff in this and the Performance Upgrades section, but that posts seem to have disappeared.

Are there any Twinchargers owned by Members here that are tuned beyond Stage 1, that have not given up the ghost?

or in other words, ended up in a puff of white or black smoke!

george

You seriously not expecting an answer to that . Tuning is NEVER at fault of cars failing, it's the car (usually made of chocolate) that is crap in the first place lol.

[vRSy]

Jabo lets try and be a grown up for a second and look at it rationally.

Do you agree or disagree that there is an issue with this engine since stock cars blow pistons, stock cars burn oil, stock cars misfire etc, you for instance have been heavily involved in posting in pretty much all the oil usage, misfire and engine failure threads of which there are many!! Why for instance do you obsessively check your oil and post about the levels and temperatures of it all the time, why for instance do you want the oil testing in the car because of petrol fumes, diagnosing the soot from the exhaust etc why have you? ....its because you, yourself dont trust the car, such is the extent of issues across this engine.

I cant disagree that tuning will make these cars develop an issue earlier than it would appear on a stock setup. But theres no way that you can attribute remaps as being the root of these issues, the remaps are merely exaggerating it.

Normally with VAG this isnt the case and they make excellent platforms to build upon reliably. This is the exact reason i would no longer recommend people to tune the car, or even buy one for that matter. Its also why im selling up and moving elsewhere because the stock package is just not a reliable base to build upon for extra power as i have experienced with previous VAG petrol engines. Jesus, you can add nearly 150Hp to the 1.8T, 2.0TFSI and 2.0TSI engines without needing to upgrade any internals!! I just looked back over my trackday bookings with my Octavia vRS and in the three years I owned it that managed 21 trackdays and over 50 laps of the nurburgring all when heavily modified and it never skipped a beat. My problem is I assumed the 1.4TSi would be as equally over engineered as them.

You live and learn, i found out the hard way that this platform is not the base I was expecting.

Id be keeping this car if it wasnt for reliability concerns and I will no doubt lose alot of money striping my car back and selling, but that's the lack of confidence I have in this car.

[Jabozuma]

One question Sy, you reckon your car being a development platform for THREE different tuning outfits could potentially have any bearing on the finale of your adventure with the twincharger motor? Not trying to be sarcastic etc. BTW.

As for the oil lab testing I am simply insanely curious what the results will be and the last time I checked to oil was 3k ago

My view in general is that if one wants genuine motorsport thrills modifying a mass produced road car is not the way to get there and a massive waste of money. Cheaper and much more exciting ways are available I am sure you are aware of.

I was to have such car modified it would not be for road use. I'd dismantle the engine first and put it back together again after having all the mechanical "fine tuning" done without upgrading internals. Then I would install proper race ECU and map it properly. I'd wager I could get 250bhp on standard parts this way with rock solid reliability.

Somebody would have to pay my bills for the duration and provide a donor car so it is not going to happen