Citigo Gearbox Problem

[Guest]

This is such a unquantified statement. Could you tell me how you know that 99.9% of clutch issues are down to users? Have you got some imperical metric evidence to back up your claim? I suspect not. It's just your unfounded opinion and not fact. I have no doubt that some clutch issues are down to bad technique, but please stop belittling anyone who is having clutch problem with such sweeping and unfounded statements.

I'm sorry to have given you or anyone the impression I'm trying to belittle someones problem. I assure you I would not do that. I have spent 33 years as a tech & master tech at main dealerships. I now work as an engine design engineer. What I said about clutches wearing out prematurely is a fact and not an unqualified statement. Actual faults causing a clutch to wear out early are in fact very few, and you will have noted I did not rule it out. In essence, faults that could cause a clutch to fail early are relatively easy to identify by any good technician. If there are none, it's the driving technique that's caused it. I was just stating the facts from a more technical viewpoint, that's all.

[WipeOut]

I have spent 33 years as a tech & master tech at main dealerships.

 

Fair enough, refreshing to meet someone on a forum has some factual basis from which they speak. It's still based on only your experiences and judgements rather than some analytical fact.  That said, I've driven for 25 years and never had clutch wear out, despite some high mileages and driving in London everyday. Is my judgement any less valid?

Put yourself in our position of having bought a new car. Immediately you notice the clutch isn't operating correctly. Then some technician who agrees it's excessively noisy not right, but Skoda won't replace. Then say some time down the car ownership the clutch fails prematurely and you are landed with the bill, because some technician says 99.9% of the time it is driver failure. Already I am hear reports of clutches failing prematurely on Cigito/Ups!.

 

VW/Skoda have a quality issue with their clutches on the Citigo and they need to stop patronising consumers and get a fix for the problem at their expense rather than hoping it fails at the consumers expense.

[Markyg]

I think vw's problem is that they dont know what is actually causing the clutch / gearbox problems. Even when they do consumer protection in the UK is such that they will try and fob people off until the cars are out of warranty.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wouldn't want to buy any of the citigos / ups that are being made at the minute when they are out of warranty. To anyone with a pcp at the moment I'd certainly not buy the car at the end of it unless it's had the gearbox changed.

[Guest]

Wipeout, yes, we are very lucky on this site. There are many serving and past technicians, enthusiasts and just plain good blokes with valuable knowledge. There input has been helpful to many including me (yes, I don't know Skoda fully yet even after 6 years of ownership!). I must say that the 99.9% thing is not just my opinion formed from experience. It's a proven statistical fact. However, I stress that there can be faults that can cause a clutch to fail or wear prematurely. But fact is these are few and far between compared to the number of cars sold. For example; at one dealership we noticed an unexpectedly higher than usual clutch failure rate at low mileages on one particular model. It was not a Skoda or a VAG car (I've never professionally teched on VAG). Being MT I was assigned the job of further investigation on a customers car who had come in for his second new clutch in 18 months with just 44,000 miles on the clock. I flag it to manufacturer who authorised stripping and blueprinting of parts and any replacements required on a one off basis initially. What I discovered had far reaching consequences. The flywheel on the car, which I had removed for blueprinting had been machined undersize at the factory. It was too thin in the drive face area. This meant the clutch cover could not compress the driven plate onto the flywheel surface correctly and was causing it to slip, wear, and fail early. Over 2000 flywheels were discovered to be faulty. All were replaced under warranty and our customer and any others were fully reimbursed for any previous clutch that had been replaced at their own expense. It takes techs to report back to manufacturers sometimes to get things moving. However, mostly...manufacturers become aware of problems quite early and begin investigating quickly. It can take time to find the problem sometimes and sort a fix. It's not always a design problem. It sometimes a materials problem, sometimes a machining production problem. But whatever it is, it's always fixed. A good example again is the recent VAG injector problems on 2ltr TDI's. The fix was thousands of pounds and paid for by customers of Passats etc. VAG then discovered an engineering problem and then allowed customers to get a full refund of their money. Manufacturers do not abuse customers or try to dupe them. It's death to a manufacturer to do that. What I think could be improved is communication with customers through dealerships so they know the full picture of what is going on.

 

I recommend that if anyone has a problem or believes they have a problem with any part of a new car under warranty, make sure you report the problem fully and do it in writing. That way if something doesn't get fixed before warranty runs out, it will be covered in some way if a failure occurs out of warranty. Mostly it will be fully covered in my experience by the manufacturer. Just depends on what the fault is and sometimes comes down to what is reasonable. 

 

Wipeout, hope you problem gets fixed ok soon. One things for sure...it will be fixed!

[WipeOut]

I think vw's problem is that they dont know what is actually causing the clutch / gearbox problems. Even when they do consumer protection in the UK is such that they will try and fob people off until the cars are out of warranty.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wouldn't want to buy any of the citigos / ups that are being made at the minute when they are out of warranty. To anyone with a pcp at the moment I'd certainly not buy the car at the end of it unless it's had the gearbox changed.

I agree that VW don't know what's causing the problem and that's a part of the reason why they won't/can't fix. They need to stop fobbing off customers with the "state of the art" nonsense and figure out why there are some cars with an issue and others are fine. Inconsistency is symptom of poor quality. They need to resolve these issues. Clutches and gearbox  should work well from day one, unlike mine.

PCP is a good suggestion, shame I had bought my car privately as a local run around to be kept until its good for scrap.

[WipeOut]

I must say that the 99.9% thing is not just my opinion formed from experience. It's a proven statistical fact.

 

This is very interesting.

 

You are aware of 2,000 clutches that were down to manufacture defects. So as you say "99.9%" is statistical fact down to driver error. So that's just 0.1% down to manufacture issues. That means you've witnessed or been involved in the replacement of 2,000,000 clutches, as 99.9% were down to drive error.

I don't want to come over as a smart ass, but are you really sure this is a statistical fact as you put it. 2 MILLION clutches is your source of your statistics!

 

:-)

 

[bilun777]

Loved the story Estate Man....There was me thinking it was a little old lady using the clutch pedal as a foot rest.

[WipeOut]

Loved the story Estate Man....There was me thinking it was a little old lady using the clutch pedal as a foot rest.

 

Or 2,000,000 old ladies using the clutch pedal as a foot rest.

Edited 6 December, 2013 by WipeOut

[Guest]

This is very interesting.

 

You are aware of 2,000 clutches that were down to manufacture defects. So as you say "99.9%" is statistical fact down to driver error. So that's just 0.1% down to manufacture issues. That means you've witnessed or been involved in the replacement of 2,000,000 clutches, as 99.9% were down to drive error.

I don't want to come over as a smart ass, but are you really sure this is a statistical fact as you put it. 2 MILLION clutches is your source of your statistics!

 

:-)

Not quite! But don't worry, it's unlikely anyone will take you for a smart ass! You've somewhat got your maths wrong and/or you keep jumping to incorrect conclusions. Don't know how you did that! But it illustrates how these negative rumours start based on someone's mis-understanding. As I said above, the manufacturer found IN TOTAL 2030 faulty flywheels caused by in turn, a faulty robot in productions. All fixed easily. Cars with the faulty flywheel were recalled before problems occurred. Vin numbers were used to identify the problem cars. So how does that translate to 2,000,000 clutches?

[WipeOut]

There are a number of clutches you’ve seen in your life.

You’re assertion is 0.1% failure are due to mechanical defects as the other 99.9% are driver error. 

That equates to 2,030 clutches  ( I originally used 2,000 as you said).

So what is the total number of clutches you based your sample on (clutches you have experience on for your fact)?

We can reverse out the percentage.

 

Original number of clutches = 100%

Clutches that fail due manufacturer defect = 100% - 99.9% = 0.1%

So 2,030 is 0.1% of the original set of clutches.

Original set = 100% * 0.1% = 100 * (2030 / 0.001)

= 2,030,000 clutches that you’ve based you fact upon.

 

It’s fine to have an opinion, but you’ve made an assertion it’s based on fact. The fact based on the 2,030 clutches is that you must have been involved in the replacement of 2,030,000 clutches. That’s an awful lot clutch's to have replaced in a working career?  :think: 

[bilun777]

Maybe should have said Approx 99.9% or 99.999r%.

Better now?..... :think:

[Guest]

There are a number of clutches you’ve seen in your life.

You’re assertion is 0.1% failure are due to mechanical defects as the other 99.9% are driver error. 

That equates to 2,030 clutches  ( I originally used 2,000 as you said).

So what is the total number of clutches you based your sample on (clutches you have experience on for your fact)?

We can reverse out the percentage.

 

Original number of clutches = 100%

Clutches that fail due manufacturer defect = 100% - 99.9% = 0.1%

So 2,030 is 0.1% of the original set of clutches.

Original set = 100% * 0.1% = 100 * (2030 / 0.001)

= 2,030,000 clutches that you’ve based you fact upon.

 

It’s fine to have an opinion, but you’ve made an assertion it’s based on fact. The fact based on the 2,030 clutches is that you must have been involved in the replacement of 2,030,000 clutches. That’s an awful lot clutch's to have replaced in a working career?  :think: 

 

 

Hi Wipeout, yes, I know the math but you've made an incorrect assertion based upon an incorrect assumption. In this case you are assuming every clutch was replaced. In fact I can tell you that in the Uk where we had just 240 of the affected cars, only 18 clutches needed replacing. If I'd known you were becoming paranoid about proving me wrong I'd have elaborated more for you. And it's rude to shout by the way which large text give the impression of!

 

Remember, my example was not a clutch fault parsee but a flywheel fault that can potentially affect the clutch. That was the reason for the post, to show there are some mechanical things that can affect it.  Most clutches were not affected but the flywheels were replaced anyway at manufacturers cost of course. If this had not been done other clutches would have been affected probably out of warranty. The manufacturer did not want that to happen. I can see how you might jump to that conclusion however based upon what I posted. I made my (correct) assertion of 99.9% (covering years 2010-2011) driver clutch misuse based upon industry figures of warranty claims, warranty technical reports, manufacturers feedback. Those figures exclude automatic gearboxes for obvious reasons and are collated separately. Yes, someone actually goes through these things and reads and collates them. But not me. And of course, I have some personal experience to add which is necessary in my job to allow dissection of the facts. The figures cover all manufacturers selling cars in Northern Europe and the UK for the years mentioned above. It changes slightly from year to year normally by the smallest of percent figures. We are now getting fewer complaints of virtually everything inspite of the increased complexity of many cars, for some years. The flywheel problem which I remember very well was 18 years ago. In the Uk alone there are currently near 30m cars in daily use. Across Europe that figure is many many times that so we get a very accurate account of what is going wrong and what is going right with engines. As a motor design and development engineer it's my job to work with stats. In fact it's an everyday occurrence when I'm working. That way we know what works and what doesn't. I only work part time now and only take projects that I'm interested in which these days is motorcycle engines. 

 

The only other thing I can add is that in my time as a trouble shooter at main dealerships I found the industry stats to be very accurate. It's nearly always customer misuse (however unintentional) of the clutch causing early failure. However, as above, you are always looking for mechanical problems, but due to the nature of the beast, there are few things that can really go wrong leading to early failure. Add to that the fact the clutch is a consumable and you can see why it is not something normally covered under warranty, on any car unless the clutch is damaged or worn due to another problem such as the example I gave above.

 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone on here is intentionally or unintentionally abusing the clutch causing their problem. 

 

PS. don't think this has posted quite right with the quote attached. Must have started writing in the wrong place...

 

Edited 7 December, 2013 by Estate Man

[Guest]

Maybe should have said Approx 99.9% or 99.999r%.

Better now?..... :think:

 

 

[stooz]

"Excuse me is the pendatics room?"

 

"no thats next door, this is the arguement room."

 

"no it isn't"

 

"sorry did you pay for the 10 minute arguement or the full hour?"

"full hour please"

[WipeOut]

What would be really helpful, is for some one with good technical knowledge to tell me why my clutch and gearbox isn't working properly.

 

Telling me that it's "fact" that 99.9% of clutches fail due to driver error isn't particular helpful, especially as mine showed problems on day one of collection from the showroom.

 

Can anybody offer any help on getting Skoda to fix my car?

 

Edited 9 December, 2013 by WipeOut

[Guest]

"Excuse me is the pendatics room?"

 

"no thats next door, this is the arguement room."

 

"no it isn't"

 

"sorry did you pay for the 10 minute arguement or the full hour?"

"full hour please"

 

No arguement on my part. Just trying to enlighten a particular member who is posting he has a problem with what I'm saying. 

[Guest]

What would be really helpful, is for some one with good technical knowledge to tell me why my clutch and gearbox isn't working properly.

 

Telling me that it's "fact" that 99.9% of clutches fail due to driver error isn't particular helpful, especially as mine showed problems on day one of collection from the showroom.

 

Can anybody offer any help on getting Skoda to fix my car?

 

 

Hello Wipeout, 

 

I wasn't aiming my initial post at you at all. But I was trying to be helpful to readers of the forum in making the point that an autobox with clutches is quite a different cup of tea to a car with a manual box and clutch. It's helpful not to confuse the two. There are many more things on and in an auto box that can cause clutch and gearbox wear, both mechanical and issues caused by a faulty ecu, that is covered under warranty. 

 

Anyhoo...without being able to hear the exact noise your box and/or clutch makes, it's very difficult to give any sort of realistic diagnosis based upon what you have said. Is it the clutch or is it the box? Or is it both? The car needs to be seen by someone who can make that diagnosis. Mostly, it's possible to tell what the problems are without a stripdown. But, a stripdown is needed in a few cases to make a definitive diagnosis. One things I can mention. From your description of your symptoms and noise, the clutch damper/springs are making noise at low revs under load. This shows as a chattering noise at low revs. That's not particularly abnormal. It can be louder on some models of car than others. It's louder on the Citigo because the car does not have much sound deadening. Whether yours is abnormally loud I cannot tell of course. I have driven the Citigo a couple of times and heard the clutch damper springs if the revs go too low. It can be quite loud. The grinding/clattery sound could be clutch bearing with excess tolerance, or internal gearbox noise caused by the reverse gear idler struggling to engage. But you probably know all this. 

 

On an upnote. I believe your technical bulletin, which is normally for internal purposes only is saying that VAG are aware of the problem and there is no fix yet. I seen many like that over the years. It precedes a proper fix. They don't want garages fitting all and sundry to cars at great expense because it may not and probably won't fix the problem for very long or at all. It doesn't mean they don't know what is causing it and for sure a fix is being worked on. But they will have key dealers that they are working with to investigate the problem and will be trying different fixes most likely. It will be fixed but it takes time to investigate, find a fix and tool up or correct the problem. It may be an outside manufacturer they are working with who supplies for example shafts or bearings that has to do the work. So the chain can be a long one. It will be fixed though so you should not be unduly concerned. I do know how dissapointing it is to have an issue on a new car though. Good luck and let us all know how you get on.

Edited 9 December, 2013 by Estate Man

[WipeOut]

Here is the final decision from Skoda on the excessive clutch noise.

 

"The noise reported on release of the clutch pedal have been diagnosed as a characteristic of the vehicle. Skoda UK have informed us through technical product information ... that the noises are due to the design of the power unit and are in accordance with the state of the art production."

[Didescharlie]

Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts and opinions Estate Man

[JimmyR]

Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts and opinions Estate Man

 

I'll second that!

[rogerzilla]

Some gearboxes, especially those that are notchy or stiff when cold, respond to synthetic gear oil, although still of the same grade and GL specification (don't use GL4 if the manual says GL5, although the other way round is OK; GL4 oil smells less offensive though).   Some OEM oils are just too slippery for the synchroniser cones, causing slow or baulky shifts.  It never completely solves the problem of a graunchy gearbox but it can help and doesn't cost much.

 

It's also worth checking the clutch pedal height as this may be preventing complete disengagement.

Edited 30 December, 2013 by rogerzilla

[Emil]

Do not use GL-5, if manual says GL-4. GL-5 is usually too too slippery for the synchroniser cones, causing crunchy shifts. To be even more complicated there is oils which are GL-4 and GL-5 at the same time.

As we are speakin relatively new cars we shouldn't need to talk about changing gear oils to our own expense. If you ever need to think gear oil change, better stick OEM oils when the car is made by VAG anyway.

[Guest]

Here is the final decision from Skoda on the excessive clutch noise.

 

"The noise reported on release of the clutch pedal have been diagnosed as a characteristic of the vehicle. Skoda UK have informed us through technical product information ... that the noises are due to the design of the power unit and are in accordance with the state of the art production."

 

I think what you need to do Wipeout is get an independent second opinion on your noises and poor gear selection. The AA are good at this, or go to another VAG specialist. This will likely cost you some money but could be worth it if you are so unhappy and still suspect something is wrong. Any report you get, if it supports your view, may be useful in furthering an investigation into your clutch/gearbox noises and poor gearchange/selection performance. It could also be helpful to meet up with some other Citigo/Up owners on this forum who believe they have similar issues and compare cars. 

 

I wish you well and keep posting on this with any further updates you may get. 

[WipeOut]

I think what you need to do Wipeout is get an independent second opinion on your noises and poor gear selection. The AA are good at this, or go to another VAG specialist. This will likely cost you some money but could be worth it if you are so unhappy and still suspect something is wrong. Any report you get, if it supports your view, may be useful in furthering an investigation into your clutch/gearbox noises and poor gearchange/selection performance. It could also be helpful to meet up with some other Citigo/Up owners on this forum who believe they have similar issues and compare cars. 

 

I wish you well and keep posting on this with any further updates you may get. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I have thought of getting a second opinion and report from another independent garage at my cost. However I am not sure what I would do once I had another garage confirm the noise is excessive and the car suffers with gear change issues. There is clearly a quality issue, due to inconsistencies in manufacture some cars and fine, others not. I believe Skoda/VW don't know what is causing these inconsistencies. So even if I got report done, it's unlikely I could use it to fix the car. Even if they agreed a new gearbox and clutch would it solve the issue?

 

To be honest I've got more important items on my to do list other than my car and I've lost the will. I am planning to keep the car for 5 years, if the clutch fails in that period then I will sue the garage arguing there was a problem from new. 

Why Skoda/VW think that clutch which is noisy than the engine on release is acceptable is beyond me?

[ettlz]

I remember on my old Ibiza (and my parents' Polo, both 1.2s with presumably the same gearbox) it would occasionally be impossible to select 1st or reverse from neutral when at rest. Spinning the box by briefly lifting the clutch pedal while in neutral always solved this. My guess is that on these occasions, the dog teeth on the synchroniser came to rest out of alignment by half a tooth with respect to the gear, and so were unable to engage. Ultimately I put this down to a design "characteristic".

 

On the CitiGo and my parents' Up!, I've encountered this once and box-spinning resolved it; my brother reports similarly on his Up!. (By the way, all three have an audible clutch action.) I've found engaging 1st on these boxes at anything above a dawdling pace can be a bit stiff. This I presume is because the cones are yet to sync and the blocking ring is still active, so I slow down rather than force it. (From what I gather, 1st and 2nd have their synchronisers on the output shaft.)

Edited 28 February, 2014 by ettlz