You can make progress if you like by undertaking but it will be breaking the law twice - for undertaking and for speeding.

Except it's not actually illegal to undertake.

Nor is it illegal to overtake on the left...

Rob.

True but according to the highway code you should pass on the right, and a breach of the highway code will go down as dangerous driving. Mainly because, in almost every case, it is dangerous.

True but according to the highway code you should pass on the right, and a breach of the highway code will go down as dangerous driving. Mainly because, in almost every case, it is dangerous.

Why is it more dangerous than passing someone on the right?!

Rob.

If you should pass on the right why are you sat in the outside lane doing 70 with space inside you? who are you over taking?

If theres room for someone to undertake then there's room to move over to let the person through

Why is it more dangerous than passing someone on the right?!

Because logic dictates that the traffic will be travelling progressively slower with each lane to the left. Fewer people expect to be passed on the left so do not check mirrors as dilligently, and people on the far lane could be overtaking and would not obviously think to check for a car in the right lane to be undertaking.

Without the logic of knowing people should pass on the right, all lane discipline would break down into a free for all.

Because logic dictates that the traffic will be travelling progressively slower with each lane to the left. Fewer people expect to be passed on the left so do not check mirrors as dilligently' date=' and people on the far lane could be overtaking and would not obviously think to check for a car in the right lane to be undertaking.

Without the logic of knowing people should pass on the right, all lane discipline would break down into a free for all.[/quote']

a) So the problem *isn't* overtaking on the left, it's people not checking their mirrors before changing lanes?

Lane discipline's hardly in a great state anyway - not sure if allowing people to pass on both sides would really make that much of a difference. In fact, it might force people to pay more attention to what's going on around them...

Rob.

Because logic dictates that the traffic will be travelling progressively slower with each lane to the left. Fewer people expect to be passed on the left so do not check mirrors as dilligently, and people on the far lane could be overtaking and would not obviously think to check for a car in the right lane to be undertaking.

Logic may appear to dictate that, but it's not actually correct. Hence the situation (may be an Urban Myth) where a driver supposedly thought the speed limits on the motorway were 50 in the inside lane, 60 in the middle lane, and 70 in the outside lane, which I think everyone on here will recognise is wrong. The not checking the mirror / blind spot defence only works if the person moving to the left KNOWS there's nothing on their inside, in which case my argument is that they should already be in that lane! :ready2go:

True but according to the highway code you should pass on the right, and a breach of the highway code will go down as dangerous driving. Mainly because, in almost every case, it is dangerous.

True, but not pulling over to let traffic pass (regardless of whether they're speeding or not) is driving without due care and attention! The way I see it, if someone's not moved over for 30 seconds or so, they're unlikely to do it in the 5 seconds or so it'd take me to pass them. And I've got my horn to alert them of my presence if they do decide they're going to pull over.

Actually, I don't want an argument either - it's certainly nothing personal to either of you! At the end of the day, the fact that people posting on here have expressed an opinion shows they have been in that situation, and have a thought-out response to it. It's the proportion of the Great British motoring public that don't really know what they're doing or what's going on around them that pose the problem - and no matter what you do, you can't plan for the kind of unpredictable things they sometimes do!!!

Logic may appear to dictate that, but it's not actually correct. Hence the situation (may be an Urban Myth) where a driver supposedly thought the speed limits on the motorway were 50 in the inside lane, 60 in the middle lane, and 70 in the outside lane, which I think everyone on here will recognise is wrong. The not checking the mirror / blind spot defence only works if the person moving to the left KNOWS there's nothing on their inside, in which case my argument is that they should already be in that lane! :ready2go:

Not looking for an argument, but I like 'discussion' ...

If the left lanes are not moving slower than the right, then it is because someone is doing something wrong, or there is a queue of traffic (and no undertaking or overtaking should be happening anyway).

When moving into a lane on your left, there should (technically) be no one moving fast enough to reach you, and as long as you check blind spot etc. it will be fine. But if someone is undertaking (at a speed significantly faster than your moving) they may not be there when you check, and be hitting you by the time you've moved. However, moving into a right lane, you expect the traffic to be going faster and will look for a large gap (hopefully) also your blind spot is slightly smaller.

Just think how much ammunition we're giving to the Jezza Clarkson 'speed cameras are rubbish for stopping dangerous driving' campaign!!

(Slightly off-topic, but...)

I suppose whatever way you look at it, SOMEONE's in the wrong by doing one or the other. At least a traffic copper can see what's going on and make a decision about whether whatever a particular driver is doing constitutes an offence, whereas if whatever's going on occurs below at least 79mph, it's unlikely to be picked up by a speed camera, and anyway, even if it is caught on camera becasue the first the driver will know about his/her wrongdoing is when an NIP appears a week or so later, and evern then, the only offence highlighted will be the speed!

It's like to story someone told on here once about the traffic police in the US happily letting people drive at 80 on the highway (despite the 55mph limit) because the traffic was moving freely and safely. By the same token, said police officer said he'd pull someone for dangerous driving whether it was at 45 or 75...

Just thought I'd throw that one in there...

However, moving into a right lane, you expect the traffic to be going faster and will look for a large gap (hopefully) also your blind spot is slightly smaller.

Unless you're in a LHD drive car, in which case the blind spot is larger when overtaking.

Also, you're supposed to work to sufficient gaps when moving either to the right or left - otherwise you end up cutting into people's "braking zone"...

Rob.

I agree, I'm just saying that it's safer to pull out infront of a car doing the same or slower speed than yourself than infront of one doing a faster speed than yourself. Both are dangerous if you are not leaving enough space.

When you see people weaving in and out through traffic. They are just using undertaking and overtaking to get around. But if you imagined everyone doing this, you would imagine a lot of accidents.

Also, if you buy a LHD car, you know that you are making driving in the UK harder for yourself.

When you see people weaving in and out through traffic. They are just using undertaking and overtaking to get around. But if you imagined everyone doing this, you would imagine a lot of accidents.

That's assuming that just because it was allowed, everyone would do it. The same way as it's assumed that if speed limits were removed, everyone would drive foot-flat-to-the-floor everywhere.

Even if this was the case, just because traffic is moving doesn't mean there will be more accidents - so long as everyone is paying attention and making sure they're leaving enough space, etc. So if people actually have to pay attention, there will be fewer cases of dozy-lane-drift, people pulling in front of other people and getting rear-ended.

In the US, it is permissible to overtake on either side - their roads aren't a bloodbath carnage!

Also, if you buy a LHD car, you know that you are making driving in the UK harder for yourself.

I didn't say it was harder, just that the blind spot was on the other side. In reality, it terms of motorway driving it's no harder, as you should be checking either side exactly the same when changing lanes, no matter where the steering wheel is.

Rob.

Changing lanes is inherently more dangerous than not changing lanes, so anything that would encourage people (or aloow them) to change lanes more often wouldn't (in my opinion) be more helpful.

Not saying it will all go to hell if it happened though. It's just one more thing for people to do badly.

Changing lanes is inherently more dangerous than not changing lanes, so anything that would encourage people (or aloow them) to change lanes more often wouldn't (in my opinion) be more helpful.

But would people actually change lanes more often?

If people can overtake other people without having to do so on the right hand side, there's going to be a lot less frustration and 1-to-3-and-back-again overtakes which are caused by people sitting in the middle lane unnecessarily.

This also means that you're less likely to get everyone sat 1m away from each other in the right-hand most lane, all trying to overtake each other.

You're also less likely to get lenghty threads on motoring forums about whether you should flash at people to get them to move out of the way, as the answer will be just to move around them on whichever side is available...

Rob.

You're also less likely to get lenghty threads on motoring forums about whether you should flash at people to get them to move out of the way, as the answer will be just to move around them on whichever side is available...

But then how would I have fun?!

I know I would undertake more (ie more than never) if it was officially classed as ok. So I think it would increase in general. Lets face it opening up another side to overtake on isn't ever going to reduce the amount of over/undertaking happening. And any increase in over/undertaking (which as I said is inherently more dangerous) is an increase in the amount of risk on roads in general. Dual carriageways will be a main problem I'd think.

So on paper it would be worse. In real life, perhaps not. But my opinion is still that it would justify the nutters who do it dangerously now, and may encourage new drivers to do the same.

If you should pass on the right why are you sat in the outside lane doing 70 with space inside you? who are you over taking?

The guy who's a short way ahead in the middle lane going slower than you.

Why is it more dangerous than passing someone on the right?!

Because you expect people to overtake on the right.You don't expect people to be inside you going faster because they shouldn't be.

driving without due care and attention!

It's not because you are paying attention and you are driving carefully. You know he's there but chose not to pull over because it would inconvenience you (since you're overtaking) and he can't go faster anyway because you're already doing the limit

My concern is just just how big a gap is it ok to ignore ?

You're going down the motorway in the outside lane doing a good 10 mph faster than the slower lane and for the sake of argument an indicated 80, there are a few cars behind you which have been closing slowy, and the cars in front are moving away slowly. If you pull into a gap then the likelyhood is that due to the speed differences you will have to slow unless one of the cars behind lets you back out. What do you do ?

My concern is just just how big a gap is it ok to ignore ?

You're going down the motorway in the outside lane doing a good 10 mph faster than the slower lane and for the sake of argument an indicated 80' date=' there are a few cars behind you which have been closing slowy, and the cars in front are moving away slowly. If you pull into a gap then the likelyhood is that due to the speed differences you will have to slow unless one of the cars behind lets you back out. What do you do ?[/quote']

Really you should either speed up to the flow of traffic in your lane (technically illegal) or pull into the other lane and slow down until a gap comes up in the outside lane that you can get back into.

Harsh in some cases. But still the 'proper' thing to do.

Thephm I agree there's definately a limit. Mort - so you should inconvenience yourself so that speeding drivers are not inconvenienced? I don't remember that in the highway code! You should speed up to meet the speed of the car in front even if it's speeding? I don't think so.

Thephm I agree there's definately a limit. Mort - so you should inconvenience yourself so that speeding drivers are not inconvenienced? I don't remember that in the highway code! You should speed up to meet the speed of the car in front even if it's speeding? I don't think so.

In the highway code it says you should move over to let them pass, regardless of whether they're speeding or not. In real life, most people will speed to keep up with traffic. Which, as I said, is illegal.

So yes, the highway code does, between the lines, tell you to inconvenience yourself.

I'm quite happy if you are doing the legal limit and want to sit in the outside lane, technically no one should be trying to overtake you, unless its the emergency services.

But if I were doing 70 on the motorway and someone came up behind me and flashed (politely) to tell me they want to pass I would pull over if possible. If they however pulled into the centre lane and tried to ease past me (which there wouldn't be room - or i'd be in that lane) then I would not be so happy. If they rode my bumper flashing and on the horn then I wouldn't be so inclined to pull over, even though it's what I am meant to do.

So in conclusion, I think flashing someone politely is right, undertaking or riding their bumper flashing uncontrollably is wrong.

Really you should either speed up to the flow of traffic in your lane (technically illegal) or pull into the other lane and slow down until a gap comes up in the outside lane that you can get back into.

Harsh in some cases. But still the 'proper' thing to do.

Yeah in general I agree though there are limits especially when I can see a big gap further on.

When I learnt to drive the highway code said that when making a maneuver, you should not cause another road user to speed up, slow down or make any other avoiding action. The responsability was on the maneuvering driver, however looking at the online version this doesn't appear to be the case any more.

But if I were doing 70 on the motorway and someone came up behind me and flashed (politely) to tell me they want to pass I would pull over if possible. If they however pulled into the centre lane and tried to ease past me (which there wouldn't be room - or i'd be in that lane) then I would not be so happy. If they rode my bumper flashing and on the horn then I wouldn't be so inclined to pull over, even though it's what I am meant to do.

So in conclusion, I think flashing someone politely is right, undertaking or riding their bumper flashing uncontrollably is wrong.

Totally agree. I'd never be in the outside lane for no reason but if someone was then it's fine to flash them in my view.

Because you expect people to overtake on the right.You don't expect people to be inside you going faster because they shouldn't be.

Surely that would mean you're driving with an expectation of what other people should be doing?

You should check your mirrors and blind spots before changing lanes in *either* direction...therefore, surely it doesn't matter on which side someone is overtaking you, as you will spot them and judge their pace and distance accurately before making the manouevre?

And this would apply whether they are overtaking you or not!

Rob.

You and I would, but lots of people wouldn't. Therefore it's dangerous. I think you'll find the police and highway code take the same view

You and I would, but lots of people wouldn't. Therefore it's dangerous.

But that means it's NOT people who overtake on the left, nor the process of overtaking on the left which is dangerous. It's the people who don't perform correct observation prior to performing manouevres who are dangerous - and they are just as likely to do this when you are overtaking on the right!

Rob.