which to choose 1.9 tdi or newer 1.6 cr diesel estate

[davidwhite]

Hi all,

 

Looking for some advice please

 

we currently own a 07 mk1 1.9tdi ( had since new ) and a 57 mk11 1.9tdi , both hatchbacks, however it would be good to change the mk 11 for an estate as extra load space need for uni runs  ( York to Bristol ) starting this sept

 

my problem is that although I have been assured that I 'shouldn't' have problems with a dpf on the newer engine I KNOW how great the 1.9 tdi is and it defo suits my driving style

 

however there is a real lack of 1.9 tdi estates ( I'm not opposed to the mk1 , as in my view ours does seem to be of a better build quality than our mk11 ) I should state that we have the elegance and the level 3 specs and I would be reluctant to down spec, I would also like to keep the car for a least the 3 years regarding uni and in all honest as long as possible thereafter

 

I'm finding it hard to justify the larger octavia ( don't need the extra space 90% of the time ) or even the rapid ( due to purchase price ! ) any advice on the longevity of the 1.6 9 or even real world experiences regarding changing into the 1.2 tsi may be helpful, however I must be honest and say diesel suits my style of driving, having owned them since the 80's )

 

I do of course have the option of using a roof rack and roof box ( but I think that would be required even with the estate ( 19 year girls seem to NEED so much gear !! )

 

thanks in advanced for any replies even if its just to state anything obvious, which i may have missed, or just to commiserate

 

thanks , regards Dave

 

 

[iSamage]

I went from having the Mk1 with a 1.9TDI PD100 lump, to the Mk2 I have now with the 1.6 CRTDI.

I haven't looked back. There's more useable power, it's quieter and more refined than the PD, the economy is slightly better (I'm very heavy footed but can still get 60MPG). And I've only ever had one DPF problem where I had to give it a thrashing (a couple of weeks had passed on weird work shifts so it wasn't working many miles) but since then not a single hiccup.

Had the car since the last week of Feb and the odometer is already 5,700 ish. I immediately loved it because honestly, the CR loves to rev out. Well, it's more than you'd expect from a diesel. The PD would run out of puff and just make noise after 3,500 but the CR just goes for it! I did try the 1.2TSI before buying, but I didn't like it. The power was there but I just plain didn't enjoy the petrol.

[tlx]

Based on my experience (1.9 40000 miles, 1.6 25000 miles) you will find the 1.6 is much less clattery than the 1.9 which makes for a nicer driving experience.  It won't pull away so smoothly from 1000 revs as the 1.9, but it does pull well from 1500.  There's plenty of torque there and it always pulls well, but use the revs and you will be very surprised just how well it accelerates.  Make sure you get the 105 rather than the 90 or 75 engines - it really flies.  Economy seems to vary greatly between individual engines.  Some people report good mileage others poor mileage, and it is not just down to driving style.  Mine is at the poor end (I get better mileage out of my BMW 320D).  Generally you'll get better mileage with a warm engine and longer runs, lower speeds, fewer hills - all seem to make a tremendous difference to mpg.  I get less out of the 1.6 than the 1.9, but its still a better drive.  We do quite a bit of short running and you can sometimes smell the dpf regenerating, but we've never seen the dpf light or had any problems.

[bobjob49]

As an 1.6 cr tdi owner I would say go 1.9tdi. Mine needed egr replacing at 15k. You cannot use this car for stop - crawl journeys. I had 3 a week and this was enough to bugger the egr. O2 sensor needed replacing too. If I was warned by the dealer it is only suitable for traffic that keeps moving I would not have bought it. I would have gone for a 1.9 instead or 1.2tsi.

Edited 9 June, 2014 by bobjob49

[mattgirling]

Excuse my ignorance but what problems are there with the DPF?

 

I do about 10,000 miles per year. A mixture of town commuting and weekend long drives.

 

Currently drive a 14-year old felicia and I was thinking of getting a 1.6 TDi.

[davidwhite]

Thanks for your replies so far

 

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here trying to get hands on experience from the very people who's advice I'd find relevant, namely actual owners/drivers of these cars

 

NOT a dealer or salesman, who knowing how difficult it will be to find me a 1.9 tdi are telling me that the 1.6 ( or even the 1.2 tsi ) WILL be perfectly ok ( which of course they may well be, only time and replies on here will tell )

 

thanks again

 

regards Dave  

[GeneralPurpose]

Hello David, I don't own the 1.6cr engined Fabia. I now own petrol 1.6 and love it. But, I do quite often drive the 1.6cr diesel Fabia Estate and I think it's a big improvement over the PD engined cars with either the 1.9 or 1.4 diesels in them. My sister has one (105ps diesel cr) and drives it around town regularly and on longer runs too and gets far more mpg's out of it than the 1.9pd engined Octavia estate she had previously. Not quite a fair comparison I know. She has owned it for over two years and has never once had the dpf light come on, as most haven't. Unless you do very very low miles the dpf is not going to be a problem. The PD engines are great and pretty bullet proof. I had the 1422cc pd 80ps estate car and loved it. But the 1.6cr should last longer as it is a shorter stroke engine which reduces piston speed and wear. They are very tight when new and take some time to loosen up, but after that they fly and give good economy. Just don't change up into higher gears too early like in a PD engine, as that ruins fuel economy and can clog the egr and dpf. The egr is not affected by running in town traffic unless you do not ever get a chance to clear it out by giving it a faster run now and again. The dpf is not affected by modest to moderate town running, again as long as it gets a run each week to make sure it stays clean. The main thing is, as has been said above, the 1.6cr engine in contrast to the PD engine, likes to rev more. The alternative is the very very good petrol 1.2tsi. Again go for the 105ps version. Drives very much like a diesel with maximum torque in the same place as the 1.6cr. It's even cleaner and the mpg's are very very good. I've driven them all and the progress that petrols have made in the last 4 years is truly amazing. The PD engines are now well outmoded in my opinion, good though they are.

[bluecar1]

did 236,000 miles in a 2000 Octavia TDi 1.9 90 until 2007 then 165,000 miles in a roomster 1.9 TDi, 105 2007 to 2012

 

daughter had a monte 1.6TDi 105 drove it a few time, quieter than the 1.9PD lump, the 1.6 is about the same economy as the older 1.9 , but did not seem as much grunt low down

 

not sure the 1.6 TDi would be as reliable, but time will tell, there are a few on here over the 100,000 with a 1.6

 

the older 1.9 engine will begin starting to have EGR valve issues, they are old tech now and discontinued as not able to meet current emission standard, high milage example may have camshaft wear issues which was one of the more common issues due to the injectors being run off the camshaft

 

the 1.6 TDi does seem to have a few issues with DPF sensors, the vast majority of DPF related issues seems to be sensor related and also from what I have seem a particular batch of sensor, and I not I have not seen many in the last few months so could be not many of the batch left, now down to normal failure rates of the sensors

 

all engines have there own strengths and weaknesses, and you learn to live with them

Edited 9 June, 2014 by bluecar1

[kevo123]

I have a 2010 1.6 CR and its currently in the garage getting a new EGR value with 100k klm on the clock.  It cost 1000 Euro to replace but Skoda Ireland are covering cost.

Just something to be aware of.

[dieselV6]

New engine block and #2 injector at 16k miles / under 2 years due to persistent fuel in engine oil problem, new DPF EGT sensor at 10 months, new injector pipes at 18k miles / 2 years following injector leak spraying fuel over engine (original pipework was too tired to hold 1850bars after repeated injector/block testing). All replaced under warranty. 

 

When it works, the 1.6CR is excellent. However, it seems to have trouble maintaining the working condition, at least in my car.

[MarginWalker]

As bluecar1 says, all engines have their strengths and weaknesses. The OP already knows the strengths of the 1.9 PD - tough, dependable, economical, punchy and flexible with it's high torque. It's main weaknesses are poor refinement compared with newer CR diesel engines and nastier emissions. Personally, I wouldn't swap my 1.9 PD estate for a 1.6 CR, mainly because I've been influenced by the surprisingly high number of posts, on this very forum, regarding niggles (often DPF-related) and economy disappointments with the newer engine. Interesting to hear that the OP reports Mk 2 1.9 PD Fabia estates as difficult to find - perhaps a sign of the high owner satisfaction with this particular variant of Fabia! For me, it's been the best all-round car package I've ever owned and absolutely nothing has gone wrong with it in 6 years of varied driving. However, given that the few 1.9 estates available for sale are likely to be high milers, a newer 1.6 CR Fabia estate would probably be a better bet for lower hassle ownership, especially considering that long runs for DPF regens are definitely going to be included in the OP's journeys.

[bluecar1]

thing is if you read all the issue the main on is loss of mpg due to regen, then a substantially smaller number are DPF sensor issue, and a very small number are actual failure of the DPF filter itself

 

those where the DPF fails it is normally an issue with a failed injector or other engine related issue

 

so I think it is to early to write off DPF's in general, but having said that DPF tech is still relatively new and the long term issues are yet to be seen, a bit like CAT's on petrol engines in the late 80's, now they are pretty reliable with lamba sensor issues only

[MarginWalker]

DPFs are here to stay and that's a very good thing for urban air quality. I'm confident engineers will sort the issues out, but for now, I'd rather not have one fitted to my car, especially considering the mixed journey driving our 1.9 PD undergoes, with long periods of short trips only. It's a bit selfish and environmentally irresponsible I know (and I would never consider removing one if fitted), but I'm glad my car doesn't have this particular potential hassle.

[RichardatWakefield]

Just a thought David, you like Mk2 Fabia, you like the 1.9tdiPD engine, but diesel Mk2 Fabia Estates are hard to find; have you considered/ looked at/ driven a Roomster? Front end is all Mk2 Fabia, same range of engines, more space and versatility, perhaps more second-hand availability (and great deals on new ones).

Mine's 57 plate 1.9PD, doesn't have a DPF.

Ignore the weird looks, the cars grow on you!

Richard

[GeneralPurpose]

Richard, that's plus one from me on the Roomster! Our friend has one and it's amazing. He has the petrol version though. He bought it to get all his fishing gear in! Yeah...I know, overkill probably but he has got a lot of gear. 

 

One final thing to david white. Don't be put off by reading some of the negative posts about the 1.6cr engine. The bulk of the negative fuel economy posts relate back to when the engines first came out and related to both the Skoda and VW versions. People failed to understand it was a different class of diesel to the 1.9 and 1.4 PD engines. The 1.6cr is class leading with a new shorter stroke engine, not very common at the time it was released and it needs a different driving style to get the best performance and fuel economy. You cannot compare them directly to the PD's long stroke engine. Different driving styles really needed to get the economy, especially when the engine is running in and conforming. I was involved in a 15 month long study (yeah, I know, it was only supposed to last 6 months) to find out why so many folk on here and elsewhere were reporting poor economy when they first got their new cars. In 99% of cases it was down to driving style. I visited some owners and checked their cars over, even dynoing a couple of them and found one faulty ecu on a Golf but no other problems mechanical. I went out with owners and watched them drive, and it quickly became apparent it was the driving style that was at fault. Trying to drive then like a PD engine was the main issue (low revs being used all the time) and also following the gear change indicator was the other. It misleads you to change gear too early to a higher gear, often when you are going too slowly. Advise given and taken. Result was vastly improved economy (as much as 12 mpg in some cases just by revving it more and not using the overdrive 5th gear under 55mph), and with no exceptions from 13 owners. Remember too, that this forum only has the tiniest proportion of Skoda owners on it. Most have never heard of Briskoda and have no problems with their cars. Dealers report no major issues with the 1.6cr as it's well sorted now. ECU updates have also helped. Buy with confidence if you want to go that way. But don't overlook the petrol cars especially the turbo 1.2's. Good luck. 

[davidwhite]

many thanks one and all for your input:

 

a few of you and many posts on this forum have eluded to the NEED to rev the 1.6 cr tdi ( which goes against the way I have driven diesel cars for the last 30 years, so I would almost certainly fall into the ' driver requires retraining on driving practice ' as old habits may die hard, especially as we will still have 1 1.9 tdi in the household.

as referred to many drivers seem to be getting poor MPG using this ( 1.6 cr tdi ) engine across the skoda range UNTIL you read reviews in the Superb section ?? is there any obvious reason for this, certainly food for thought ( my uneducated thinking for what its worth, do you have to rev the wotsits out of the 1.6 in a superb to make decent progress in such a large car ?

 

without wishing to offend roomster owners they are very much marmite cars, certainly doesn't bother me but ....... wife and daughter well that's very much a different story

 

as with all forums it would be so so easy to reject the subject matter totally but as has be stated only a small majority of skoda owners will be aware of BRISKODA and many who do contribute are on negative issues as they require assistance or just plain assurance that their misfortunes can and usually will be resolved, after all said and done every car manufactured will have some issues, as a family we have, thus far been happy with our 3 skoda's to date, however it has to be included that our supplying dealer Chapmans of Pickering are no longer trading due, mainly, to skoda pulling the franchise, from them, a reason for me at least to look at the 2nd hand market as we have a very decent local garage who does all our servicing etc

 

thanks for input thus far

 

regards Dave

[iSamage]

There isn't a "need" to rev it at all. But to be honest, for a diesel, it is fun. I filled up today at Tesco, drove off, instantly round a roundabout to go back on myself and gave it some wellie to get past a line of traffic stopped at lights just off the roundabout ( they were blocking the exit and obviously I needed to get across, might aswell go for it if the lights are just changing). It's a filter lane btw.

Then stuck it in 4th at 40 across the bridge, 3rd in the 30 zones towards my house and a cheeky hard acceleration up a hill in 2nd from a mini roundabout. Car showing 52mpg already and up until this point it's pretty spot on. The car is just as happy doing that, as it is cruising at 65-75 in 5th.

At the end of the day, decision is yours.

[davidwhite]

Hi iSamage

 

taking all replies and other 'advice' etc on this forum it would appear that your last post actually sums up the difference in my driving style

 

in the 1.9 tdi 30mph is easily 'comfortable' in 4th as is 40ish mph in 5th ( unless uphill or overtaking ) so it appears I would need, or most likely, the car will require me to hold in a lower gear to a higher mph

 

would that sum the driving requirement of the 1.6 cr ( in general ) ?

 

thanks for you input time and patience

 

regards Dave 

[philhoward]

I think the rule is "drive it like you would a petrol" - CR engines rely much more on the turbo being on song for efficiency so you need to have more then 1500rpm or so AFTER you've changed gear.  They might seem to be okay at the sort of revs "old school" diesels did, but efficiency suffers, hence mpg.

 

Estate Man - please correct me if I'm wrong in any of the above..

[promethian]

I got hold of a 59 plate Fabia 3 1.9tdi with only 17k on the clock last October.

 

Remapped it and now its approx 140 bhp.

 

There's no way the 1.6 CRDI engine would touch its performance now and I love the unruly grunt/noise of this engine.

 

My boy who is 28, keeps begging me to sell it to him as he has the 1.6 105 lump in his, he is forever making excuses to borrow it.

 

If you manage to pick up a similar one...theres no other choice really, and the roomster is a good alternative choice.

Edited 14 June, 2014 by promethian

[iSamage]

Admittedly with the above post, the PD lump is so easy to remap and get decent, more openly reliable (than the CR) power. With that engine you won't be paying around £400 odd for a remap as it's the ealrier ECU? Or am I mistaken?

 

 

Hi iSamage

 

taking all replies and other 'advice' etc on this forum it would appear that your last post actually sums up the difference in my driving style

 

in the 1.9 tdi 30mph is easily 'comfortable' in 4th as is 40ish mph in 5th ( unless uphill or overtaking ) so it appears I would need, or most likely, the car will require me to hold in a lower gear to a higher mph

 

would that sum the driving requirement of the 1.6 cr ( in general ) ?

 

thanks for you input time and patience

 

regards Dave 

 

I don't use 4th until at least 35/40 mph. The computer asks you to change up as soon as you hit 30 at a steady speed, but the engine just isn't as happy. As said, CR relies a lot on the turbo being on song. I do remember in my old PD I could pull away, in to second, boot it, then whack it in to 4th and cruise even on standard town roads. However I have now adapted my style.

[promethian]

Admittedly with the above post, the PD lump is so easy to remap and get decent, more openly reliable (than the CR) power. With that engine you won't be paying around £400 odd for a remap as it's the ealrier ECU? Or am I mistaken?

 

 

 

I don't use 4th until at least 35/40 mph. The computer asks you to change up as soon as you hit 30 at a steady speed, but the engine just isn't as happy. As said, CR relies a lot on the turbo being on song. I do remember in my old PD I could pull away, in to second, boot it, then whack it in to 4th and cruise even on standard town roads. However I have now adapted my style.

Old style ECU... a breeze to remap

[dazz600]

As an 1.6 cr tdi owner I would say go 1.9tdi. Mine needed egr replacing at 15k. You cannot use this car for stop - crawl journeys. I had 3 a week and this was enough to bugger the egr. O2 sensor needed replacing too. If I was warned by the dealer it is only suitable for traffic that keeps moving I would not have bought it. I would have gone for a 1.9 instead or 1.2tsi.

As above

If only my dealer would have told me about dpf also.bad practice on their part IMHO

As for 'taking it on a run' to clear the dpf,doesn't that defeat the object?

Not to mention some of the longer runs I did (100 miles+) more than once the dpf decided to regen as I parked up on the driveway.

Last diesel I will ever own if that's what the future holds

Having said that,it may suit you (as it does others)

[bluecar1]

DPFs tend to regen every 150-250 miles depending on driving style and roads

 

most of the time you don't notice as if you are on a longer run it tends to do a passive regen as the exhaust temps are high enough to burn the soot off without having to alter fuel timing and add additional fuel late in the cycle

 

but with the more modern engines injection pressures, fineness of the spray and timings they are reducing soot and emissions whilst increasing engine efficiency / mpg, but with lower heat output into exhaust and cooling system as the fuel is being burnt to produce more power and less waste heat and emissions

 

according to the info about the fabia 3 they have increase mpg by about 15% across the range so that gives you and idea of what is changing

 

some of it is down to low friction coatings on bearings / moving parts, other bits are improvements in fuel systems / timings and the final bit is aerodynamics (not hard to make gains on the fabia aero as it is a bit of a brick)

 

so you may lose a little on a dpf but gain on aero / friction, and end up with an overall net gain

[davidwhite]

once again many thanks for your replies

 

dazz600,

 

your post is certainly food for thought, if I read it correctly, along with other dpf info, would I suffer from the need to continue a 'regen' as my normal daily trip to work is on B roads at 30 - 40 mph, if tractors, weather conditions and other day to day factors dictate, its about a 13 mile journey which normally takes 25 - 30 minutes, my worry is, if the dpf is performing a regen when I arrive at work, I can't, in reality, take the car for a further journey to complete the regen procedure, this will be day to day driving with the option, and unless I'm misreading this regarding the dpf, maybe a somewhat essential longer 'faster' journey at a weekend, the trip to Bristol uni or further down to my Dad's in Devon ain't going to be a monthly event  

 

bluecar1

 

I'm not in the market for the fabia 3 and with past experience regarding the 07 '57' fabia 2 ( early example ) there seems to be a distinct lack of build quality compared to this and the 07 fabia 1 that we also own, ( would the early mk 3 cars prove to be the same ? ) so much so that I am leaning towards looking for a low mileage late example mk 1 estate or as late as poss mk 2 1.9 tdi estate, however both are thin on the ground, may have to consider ( whisper this........ a 1.2 tsi  or move up to an octavia, however these all appear to be leggy on 1.9 tdi examples ) 

 

regards and thanks for eveyones input Dave