Hello guys, I was mulling over something the other day and wondered what the view and advice of the ADI/ROSPA guys would be.

 

When I did my police response drivers course several years ago I was obviously taught the road-craft approach for negotiating bends and in particular taking up an early position prior to the bend in so far as is safe to do so, on the opposing edge of your lane so as to give maximum view into the bend. This I understand, however one phrase my instructor kept referring to when actually in the bend was "Take the longest way around the bend" by which he meant to maintain this wide position whilst actually mid-bend and throughout the entirety of the bend, more or less hugging the outside edge of the bend .

 

This always felt a little bit alien to me, as on any bend it always seems to me that the car will at the mid point, naturally move towards the centre white line/apex (I'm not talking about straight lining the bend - a technique which i am familiar with - or even clipping the centre line but just moving back slightly towards the middle of your own lane rather than hugging the outer edge of the bend) which in turn reduces steering input and keeps the car more balanced. By contrast I find that trying to make the car hug the outside edge of the bend can lead to having to make minor steering adjustment mid bend (particularly if the limit point changes) which surely risks unsettling the car.

 

Even the Roadcraft DVD (complete with funky 90's hair do's) sets a somewhat confusing example as it states that the wide/outside edge position is to be taken for maximum vision and "not because it is the quickest method" at which it then shows the car enter the bend from the outside edge of a left hand bend before turning in very tight to the white line during the actual bend.

 

I have since done further advanced and pursuit courses and have always just deferred to what i found most natural (wide entry for optimum vision, then negotiate the bend on an even throttle/minimum steering, allowing the vehicle to move slightly inwards towards the white line towards the middle of the bend) and have never been pulled up or advised otherwise for doing this, however I have always wondered what the "correct" method is

 

Cheers guys

This is how I do it,.  Extending the view as much as possible and the corner opens out faster if you are not taking the racing line.

 

there's a fine line though between optimum position and getting your nearside wheel in the crap at the side of the road around a right hander.

On the public road when you go towards the White Line you can meet someone coming towards you going to their white line or actually crossing it.

Car, Bike, Van, or Log carrying Lorry.

Even some one that thinks they are an Fully Trained Advanced Driver, that has no special Invincibility,

they bleed just like everyone else, and it is amazing how many  Advanced Trained Drivers are in collisions daily.

(maybe its down to the training and not just driving to the road and the vehicle, or just driving sensibly, whats the hurry after all,

You have Radios, Communications and Cameras, & in an Emergency best to get there safely..)

 

So you stay in your own lane with enough room inside in case you need to head to your nearside.

After all it will be a NSL road with a Maximum 60 mph anyway.

An Original Mini can get around the bend safely probably in the dry at 20 mph over the speed limit without the need for Racing Lines.

Edited 7 August, 201410 yr by goneoffSKi

This is how I do it,.  Extending the view as much as possible and the corner opens out faster if you are not taking the racing line.

 

there's a fine line though between optimum position and getting your nearside wheel in the crap at the side of the road around a right hander.

As per Devonutopia...........in my view there is also an optimum position near the white lines on the left and bends so that there is a margin of safety from oncoming vehicles. On a motorcycle this seems particularly self evident.

oneoffSKi, I may not have explained myself very well in the original post. I am not speaking about the car's line tightening as a result of carrying as much speed as possible through the bend, nor am I talking about 

apexing or straightening out the bend for the purpose of speed. I am talking about taking a bend under normal driving and for safety rather than driving for maximum speed.

 

When I refer to movement back towards the centre line, I mean moving back into the centre of the lane - what most people would consider the "normal driving position". I don't mean moving inwards so far as to clip the centre line/apex  - this might allow for more speed through the bend as per the racing line however decreases safety by most obviously risking conflict with oncoming traffic in the opposite lane and on bends which aren't open severely limiting view of the road ahead (Roadcraft tells us we cant sacrifice safety for speed!)

 

To paraphrase DevonUtopia's description, i would handle a left hand bend as follows:

 

- Approach on straight, position as far to the right (outside edge) as road condition/surface safely allows, for maximum vision into the bend, prior to entry adjust speed using accelerator/brake so it is suitable to limit point and ability to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, take an appropriate gear

- Enter left hand bend still positioned as above, as far to the right (outside edge) as safe to do so for optimal view, keeping speed static with throttle for stability

- Continue to drive the bend maintaining position to the right (outside edge) of the bend

- As the bend reached the mid-point or just past the midpoint the line of the car naturally tightens

- At this point the car starts to travel back into the centre of the lane (towards the central white line)

- Upon exiting the bend the car will be positioned between the centre of the lane and the right (outside edge), (however not as far over to the  right (outside edge) as at the point of entering the bend)

 

The car will have travelled on a constant path with no need for any adjustment in steering which might have unsettled the car whilst in the bend. The only issue I can see with this is possibly that on longer sweeping bends I might be losing some vision further ahead due to the tightening of the cars line?

 

In contrast the "Take the longest way around the bend" method I have previously been given was pretty much the same as above, however the position of the car was maintained to the outside edge of the bend for the entire time you are driving the bend. The issue I had with this was that on bends where the radius of the bend or limit point changes (particularly double apex bends) I would sometimes find that additional steering input was needed to maintain this strict outside "edge" line through the entirety of the bend and the obvious risk this has on upsetting the balance of the car.

 

As I say I have never since had any issues with the method I use on subsequent courses/examinations, but I know that advanced driving can be fairly dogmatic on most things and was curious as to what the dogma is.

 

With all this said, I echo the above comments that no driver is invincible, from provisional licence holders to advanced drivers, I have seen drivers of all ages and experience forget the golden rule "You must be able to stop in the distance which you can see to be clear" and on more occasions than I can recall have had to deal with the unpleasant consequences 

Edited 8 August, 201410 yr by BigJakk

So are you talking about taking Normal bends, and normal lines carrying Normal NSL speeds which will be a maximum of 60 mph.

 

Seems like a story about nothing or driving cars that are not very good at cornering.

 

??What type of cars are we talking about unbalancing here,

Fat lump of a RWD Motorway Barge, some low and sleek sporty vehicle, some town type city car or some SUV type vehicle?   Odd that some special technique is required to proceed up the road in a safe manner carrying speed, 

every other driver seems able to do it, some are on the brakes all the time and some just flow, after all when you ride a Motor Bike you get very aware very quick 

that there is a surprise possible at every corner,

Diesel Spills, Potholes, fallen HGV straps, wildlife and cars / vehicles  on your side of the road Advanced Drivers heading for the white line.

 

george

For simplicity, let's presume that we're talking about constant radius bends and right-hand drive (rather than wrong-hand drive) cars.

 

To extend your vision in a right-hand bend, position as far left as is safe (allowing for broken gutters, gravel, white edge lines etc)  on approach, adjust your speed to suit your vanishing point, and maintain this posiiton and speed through the bend until your vanishing point starts to move away from you. When your vanishing point moves away from you, then you can start to accelerate and/or move back towards the centre of the lane.

 

In a left-hand bend, ideally you would use the same approach, but holding a posiiton just left of the lane divider. This may bring you into conflict with oncoming traffic which is using the so-called "racing line" to straighten out the corner. Sometimes you may choose to cross the divider and enter the corner on the off-side, but this is very much a question of individual confidence and circumstance.

 

Any help?

The way I look at it (and drive/ride) is that I break the driving style up to account for three main considerations:

 

1. best vision on entry
2. best line for maintaining a stable car/bike without the need to apply any braking or to have to make corrections mid bend and not least;
3. at a speed consistent with both the vanishing point (never exceeding vanishing point speed) and consistent with stopping within the distance I can see ahead. 

It seems patently obvious, but these are all pretty important and generally result in the smoothest and safest line through a corner, allowing you to get on the gas early and maintaining the most balanced line. Nothing upsets suspension geometry through load changes more than correcting mid corner or having to alter speed before the apex.

 

I was also taught to maintain the longest way round but found the same as you did, so gave that up as poor advice at best because it does not consider the finer points of maintaining a vehicle's stability which is key (or at least very important)  to safe cornering technique.

 

I also agree with some of the posts above that many corner lines require due consideration of the effects on being too close to the white line or too close to the nearside edge.  I have lost count of the number of times where a vehicle has come the other way with the driver driving carelessly, or dangerously, positioned across the white lines.  This is something you particularly have to watch for on a bike where if cranked over mid corner, you could be over-hanging the corner or simply that it is nigh on impossible to effect a correction mid corner on a bike, so you need to adapt to the road conditions and use intelligent cornering making rapid assessments of the safest line.

 

I do think that this was an aspect where the former Roadcraft techniques were to some extent flawed when detailed scrutiny was applied.

Edited 23 August, 201410 yr by SEVrs

The primary criteria is vision. The wide line is for vision, and safety (particularly on right-handers). Roadcraft says somewhere (certainly in the old blue book) that you can move towards the centre line as vision develops and makes this safe. This is my guide. Ditto if you need to modify your line on a left-hander for safety, you do so, toute suite.

There's a tendency among those new to the System, to cut right-handers because they enter too fast and end up feeling uncomfortable trying to maintain the wide line. That should not be confused with a controlled early return towards the centre prompted by improved vision and opening the throttle.

Personally I was taught the primary criteria is safety, not vision. Not mentioned so far is how the view unfolds as you progress through the bend and what influence that should have on your position including other hazards and where the road goes next, e.g. if you are in a right hand bend there are different opions to consider depending if the road goes left right or straight on beyond the bend andhowfar ahead the next hazard is. There was a very interesting article in one of the IAM magazines a couple of months ago by one of their top people. It basically said that roadcraft looked at things in a perfect world, which you then had to interpret to use in the real one and sometimes there was no definitive 'correct' answer which I thought was good advice.

 

- As the bend reached the mid-point or just past the midpoint the line of the car naturally tightens

- At this point the car starts to travel back into the centre of the lane (towards the central white line)

I'm so glad you've posted this question as I have been having the same problem, and after many months of pondering I think I've cracked it.

As you are a Police Advanced Driver please don't think I'm trying to teach granny to suck eggs, I wouldn't dream of it, this is mearly a suggestion based on my own experiences.

What I have been doing is as follows.

Left hand bend.

I would approach having taken a course as close to the centre carrigeway markings as is safe.

Adjust speed and select appropriate gear.

Watch the limit point and apply the required amount of lock keeping O/S/F wheel next to carrigeway marking.

Now it goes a bit wrong. I should be watching the limit point all the way round, but for a split second I can't resist checking the position of the car relative to the carrigeway markings and in that split second I've missed the limit point starting to move away from me. As it's moving away it means the radius of the bend is starting to increase and so I should be chasing it with steadily increasing throttle AND taking off some steering lock. Because I've missed it for a split second my steering lock remains the same and so the car appears to magically return to the centre of the lane as I've been steering a slightly tighter bend without realising.

I've been making myself ignore the checking bit lately and just concentrating on the limit point and the difference is marked.

Please try it for yourself as i'd love to know if it's just me!.

The primary criteria is vision. The wide line is for vision, and safety (particularly on right-handers). Roadcraft says somewhere (certainly in the old blue book) that you can move towards the centre line as vision develops and makes this safe. This is my guide. Ditto if you need to modify your line on a left-hander for safety, you do so, toute suite.

There's a tendency among those new to the System, to cut right-handers because they enter too fast and end up feeling uncomfortable trying to maintain the wide line. That should not be confused with a controlled early return towards the centre prompted by improved vision and opening the throttle.

 

I really need to get out on the next ADUK drive.  Hoping there is one around Somerset ish soon.

I'm so glad you've posted this question as I have been having the same problem, and after many months of pondering I think I've cracked it.

As you are a Police Advanced Driver please don't think I'm trying to teach granny to suck eggs, I wouldn't dream of it, this is mearly a suggestion based on my own experiences.

What I have been doing is as follows.

Left hand bend.

I would approach having taken a course as close to the centre carrigeway markings as is safe.

Adjust speed and select appropriate gear.

Watch the limit point and apply the required amount of lock keeping O/S/F wheel next to carrigeway marking.

Now it goes a bit wrong. I should be watching the limit point all the way round, but for a split second I can't resist checking the position of the car relative to the carrigeway markings and in that split second I've missed the limit point starting to move away from me. As it's moving away it means the radius of the bend is starting to increase and so I should be chasing it with steadily increasing throttle AND taking off some steering lock. Because I've missed it for a split second my steering lock remains the same and so the car appears to magically return to the centre of the lane as I've been steering a slightly tighter bend without realising.

I've been making myself ignore the checking bit lately and just concentrating on the limit point and the difference is marked.

Please try it for yourself as i'd love to know if it's just me!.

I guess you saw my reservation about this approach in #7para3?

 

Anyway, that notwithstanding, if you watch the Roadcraft DVD (can't remember chapter, but it's once their followed course start doing drives out, one of the students has this issue. The instructor clearly expects this from his dialogue about "accelerate now; even on full throttle you won't catch the vanishing point". This makes me think that what you're talking about is perfectly normal and may not even be an error.

Have I missed something? What is the 'vanishing point'?

Have I missed something? What is the 'vanishing point'?

Vanishing point - In this context it's the point where the road surface disappears out of view round a corner ahead of you, so the "furthest distance you can know to be clear ahead" and hence the factor that determines how fast you can corner and still stop safely.

Thanks Ken, that makes sense.

Vanishing point - In this context it's the point where the road surface disappears out of view round a corner ahead of you, so the "furthest distance you can know to be clear ahead" and hence the factor that determines how fast you can corner and still stop safely.

Although it is properly referred to as the limit point.

Although it is properly referred to as the limit point.

 

Yep - it was in my training

 

You're having fun perusing the advanced driving forum tonight eh?

Although it is properly referred to as the limit point.

I don't want to make a meal of the nomenclature, but IME the 2 terms are used interchangably in that some instructors use one and some the other to mean the same thing.