I wonder if you knowledgeable folks can resolve an argument for me?

a. Is it possible to over rev an engine when in manual mode with a 7 speed DSG?

b. Is the maximum ever engine revs permanentlty stored in the ecu?

Thanks mm

The gearbox will change gear itself, even in manual mode and will not allow a change down if the resulting RPM were to be too high.

I'm certain the ECU will store data if you keep bouncing off the rev/dsg limiter. Even my mk1 Leon does, and i have errors that show via vag-com.

Can't be done, even in manual mode it changes up at the redline, I wouldn't advise it under 500 miles but, it does need to be done after 500 miles or so to "seal" the running-in process IMO.

 

As for fault logs, nothing shows up on VCDS with regards to over revving.

So the consensus (on a very limited number of replies) is that you cannot over-rev with a DSG box.

But there is no agreement as to whether the ecu stores data about a max rev count. Can one of the VCDS experts on here help?

I know it stores how many times you have used launch control, which isn't visible via vcds as far as I know, but is with other tools.

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My understanding is that the ECU (on the Octavia II at least) permanently logs any over revs and that this will invalidate the warranty. There is some discussion of this in the thread below.

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/48001-important-warranty-issues-on-new-vrs-and-underhanded-behaviour/

I dont think its possible on a DSG as the ECU will block downchanges that will cause the car to over-rev. Also the cars do have rev limiters on up-changes and I dont think it'll invalidate the warranty to rev your car to the limiter. Wierdly TDi's redline on the tacho at 5k RPM well after all the useful power has gone, god knows why....i'm sure they actually rev to about 5.2k before the soft limiter cuts in.

That said technically speaking there is no way to prevent over-rev from a downchange where it can be manually invoked (on a manual car).....so yes dropping your manual TDI into second gear doing about 70 mph would well enough do the trick!

In fact if they detect over revving it would usually be down to a remap allowing a higher rev limit. I believe VAS can now detect non-standard maps now (where the checksum has changed without their knowledge) and informs SUK immediately invalidating the engine warranty.

Edited 20 August, 201411 yr by pipsyp

I believe the car will only upshift on it's own in manual mode up to 4th gear... so If you've got your foot hard down in manual and 4th gear don't be expected it to change up again as you will end up sat on the rev limiter.

 

Phil

I believe the car will only upshift on it's own in manual mode up to 4th gear... so If you've got your foot hard down in manual and 4th gear don't be expected it to change up again as you will end up sat on the rev limiter.

Phil

I wonder what the logic for that can be?

I wonder what the logic for that can be?

 

No idea!

 

Unless they have changed it with the MK3 Ocatvia of course.

 

Phil

Phil, not sure about the 6 speed wet clutch but, the 7 speed dry clutch changes up automatically at 6K (redline) in every gear personally, I change up way earlier than that trying to follow the max torque curve which can be difficult due to the speed it all happens at in the lower gears but, from 4th onwards its quite simple and very rewarding.  Seems wrong short shifting when your trying to get the very best outta the engine but, I've timed it and it works well, that poor little 1.4 TSI really does punch well above its weight when worked to its torque characteristics.

I will try my 6 speed - pretty sure it changes up at the red line in 4th when in manual mode?

With a DSG gearbox you cannot over-rev the car with the accelerator pedal. (OK perhaps maybe down a very steep HIL at full throttle)

It should automatically change to the next gear.

 

Even if it doesn't, the ECU will limit the torque so that its not possible to go above the maximum allowed engine speed limit.

All electronic injection engines will have a software speed limiter which will reduce the torque (thus injection) when you reach maximum engine speed.

The same is true of a manual gearbox also if you don't change the gear & drive to the red line.

 

Obviously with a manual you can change to a gear that will cause an engine over-speed, however, the DSG software should prevent this.

 

 

Its very easy for a manufacturer to store information about the operation of the car & they will store much more information that is mandated by OBD requirements.

This information will not necessarily be available be with VCDS or an OBD tool.

Whether & how they will use this information will be very difficult to know.

a. Is it possible to over rev an engine when in manual mode with a 7 speed DSG?

b. Is the maximum ever engine revs permanentlty stored in the ecu?

 

To answer your questions:

A) I would say No.

I would say Yes.

 

I guess your question comes because you drive your DSG to the red-line in manual mode & your mate says this is bad & Skoda will know you do this when it breaks & wont pay for the repair.

 

I would say there is no reason not to drive like this if you want to.  (Its not bad for the engine & it won't invalidate your warrenty).

The gearbox & engine are fully controlled by software & should protect the engine from damage in all but extreme conditions.

If driving to the red-line would cause problems, Skoda would make the engine speed limit lower.

Thanks for the interesting and informative feedback.

 

To summarise the replies, it does not appear possible to over-rev with a DSG gearbox in manual mode. When accelerating the gearbox shifts up automatically just before the red line; and downshift commands are ignored if there is any danger of over-revving. However there seems to be a question as to whether the upshift rule applies if one is in 4-7th gear.

 

The reason that this question came up is that I met up with a friend who recently returned from China following the end of a job contract. He told me that whilst he was in China he had use of several company vehicles including a 1.4TSI Octavia equivalent fitted with the 7 speed DSG gearbox. He also told me that Skoda’s parent, VW has consistently been in trouble with the Chinese authorities for a long while over what the Chinese regard as poor VW engineering and build quality. VW have been accused of hiding the true extent of the problems with the DSG, wrongly blaming drivers for any faults, and putting profit before quality.

 

Now VW cannot afford trouble. It seems that virtually every VW vehicle now sold in China has a DSG box, and VW has built a DSG manufacturing plant in Shanghai. Incredibly this is projected to produce nearly 900,000 DSG boxes per annum for the Chinese market by the end of 2014!

 

The DSG problems in China are seemingly longstanding.  Amongst other measures designed to recover customer confidence, VW provided a 10 year warranty for the DSG box from 2012 which is similar to what they had to do in the US when they had similar DSG reliability problems in that market. Europe and Australia/NZ continue to remain the “poor relation” in the warranty stakes.

 

I told my friend that I knew that VW were changing the synthetic oil in the gearboxes to resolve sudden loss of drive issues, but was not aware of any other widespread problems. However he told me that in fact there are a number of other issues which remain unresolved in China and in consequence VW’s actions are now being very closely monitored by the Chinese authorities.

 

Apparently one of the outstanding issues (admittedly not very common) is that the DSG can downshift itself whilst in manual mode and potentially cause severe engine damage. Hihterto my understanding was that this should not be possible (hence my original question) but it does seem that there have been instances of this in China. Skoda have already had a recall for a related DSG problem in 2013. I found this via Gasgoo:

 

From China Daily March 19, 2013

Shanghai VW Skoda recall over gearbox issues

 

China Daily - Shanghai Volkswagen Skoda has released a recall notice on its website on March 16 concerning Octavia 1.4TSI, Octavia1.8TSI and Superb 1.4TSI models. It is the first recall announcement for the seven-speed DSG-equipped cars.

Skoda sales and service providers will contact the owners of the cars to be recalled. The cars currently for sale are up-to-date with the latest technology according to the recall notice. Skoda has offered free inspections and maintenance to cars not included in the recall. A detailed recall plan will be issued soon, the notice said.

Skoda cars equipped with seven-speed dual shift gearboxes have had reported failures including unexpected accelerations and stalls.

 

Whatever the cause it seems the recall may not have entirely resolved the problem, and I understand from my friend that further recalls have been made for the same vehicles. 

 

VW are claiming that the issues are probably due to “tooling differences for the DSG gearbox in the Chinese market” but I can’t find any evidence as to what that means. The implication is that a lot of these problems are down to the Chinese version of the box and so would not occur in other markets. I think this might be true to the extent that an internet search does not show that particular problem appearing in other English speaking markets with any regularity. There certainly do not appear to be any similar reports on this forum.

 

I would emphasise that I’m very happy with the DSG (this is the second one I have owned) so am not trying to knock it, but I’m glad I’ve got my 5 year warranty!  But what is going on with VW/Skoda in China is interesting – the sheer scale of their market seems to quickly flush out any incipient problems.  If you are interest in the Chinese connection I suggest accessing information via gasgoo.com the Chinese automative portal (and via that the China Daily newspaper) – however be patient as the pages can take ages to load and sometimes seem to have stalled when they have not. I think it’s either the internet filters in China or GCHQ are bugging my traffic!

 

Cheers MM.   

I guess your question comes because you drive your DSG to the red-line in manual mode & your mate says this is bad & Skoda will know you do this when it breaks & wont pay for the repair.

Hi Gabbo,

 

Thanks for the reassurance but I don't normally drive to the redline. As you can see from my post above my orginal question was prompted  for other reasons.

Its normal for all OEMs & suppliers to have manufacturing & assembly plants in China.

Firstly its a huge country with millions of people & a fast growing demand for cars. Local manufacture saves transport costs/time & many cast metal components come from China anyway.

Secondly, China forces OEMs to home-source a certain percentage of the components to allow them to sell their cars there.

 

I'm pretty sure the large DSG volume is also just down to customer demand.

China's big cities are massively crowded and an auto makes driving much more comfortable.

I wouldn't be suprised if some european cars are only sold with auto or DSG gearbox because the demand for a manual is so low.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you're happy with yours!

I would have liked a DSG but I couldn't really justify the extra cost & reduced economy when the roads here are empty.

Edited 22 August, 201411 yr by Gabbo

Is the DSG being talked about here the same as part of the Skoda UK Service Campaign were some from 2010-2014 will require the Synthetic Oil changed to Mineral oil and an ECU update?

 

& if it is,

are Registered Keepers receiving a letter from 'David Allan' Head of Quality and Network Development, @ Skoda UK.

Including a Envelope for returning to 'Group Compliance and Campaigns, Volkswagen Group UK LTD.

 

At least Skoda New Zealand put their Service Campaign on the Website in 2013 and did not run a Silent Service Campaign.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign

Edited 22 August, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi