The Scottish Referendum was decided, and Positives must be taken from it.

[gadgetman]

Apologies Domhnall, I miss understood your post.

There was a newspaper info graphic I saw the other day (independent?) which showed the 4 areas that voted overwhelmingly yes including Glasgow and Dundee.

When you dig down into demographics such as unemployment etc etc I guess you can see why those voters were open to the idea of independence. The possibility of something new and possibly a better existence than under the current system.

I'm wondering if the increase in memberships amongst the yes parties correlates to these same 4 areas?

But is it the UK government or Scottish parliament at fault in these areas? I'd guess UK mostly, but that Holyrood isn't exempt from blame.

[hooter]

Hi Hooter,

                I Had the impression Mr Salmond considered the idea of two questions on the ballot paper more appealing when it appeared his chances of getting enough independence votes looked slim ? 

I am sure that Cameron's decision to allow only one question was a political calculation designed to reduce the chance of a yes vote, which makes the last few days of campaign promises look bizarre.  

 

Hi Laurie

 

They're politicians aren't they!  They manoeuvre to get themselves an advantage.  

 

Our understanding up here in Scotland was Salmond wanted Devo Max on the ballot from very early on or even the beginning.  It suited him.  In other words you try for independence, but if you don't get it you will definitely get Devo Max. 

 

Cameron didn't want the Devo Max option as he was pretty sure he could win a vote about independence, but knew he'd lose a vote on Devo Max.  It was quite big news up here because Westminster was setting the terms of what the Scottish people were going to vote on rather than the Scottish Government.  As you can imagine, the SNP made a big issue of it.  But in the end, after talks between the Scottish and Westminster governments, the only vote Salmond could get from Cameron was for yes or no - no half way house extension of Scottish powers.  When that was announced it was felt that the yes campaign would struggle to win such a vote.

 

Of course the polls then got close and politicians then did what they do best - ditched their beliefs and tried to make the best of the situation by offering more devolved powers to win the vote.

 

That's politics of power I suppose - getting what you consider to be the best result by whatever means you have to.  

[hooter]

just to be crystal clear, Devo Max has NOT been offered by anyone.  Labour's proposals have been described as Devo nano though. The tories have been a bit bolder and the Lib Dems want a federal set up which is close to devo max. 

And not only that.  It will be a surprise if these devolved powers amount to much at all.  Most promises politicians make on the hoof like this usually get watered down to the point of being useless - like watching an episode of Yes Minister!  The different self interest of the parties inevitably leads to a stalemate. 

 

All bets could be off though if it benefits the government with regards to English MPs only voting on English matters which will give the tories a huge advantage in England for at least a generation to come.  Then some concessions may be given to the Scottish parliament.

[Manatee]

A low blow.

 

I'd emigrate tomorrow out of the $h1th0le that is the UK but can't afford to.

I think that is the same as saying you are better off in the UK than you would be elsewhere - otherwise you would be off?

 

To the general point - the problem with a binary referendum like this is that is implies a right, and a wrong, answer.  The reality is that either result can be the right answer if they get on with it instead of perpetuating a largely imaginary division.

[RobClubley]

It doesn't cost a lot of money to emigrate, in fact it costs a lot less than people think, I have friends who have moved to Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Cyprus. If it helps, I'll give you a lift to the airport or ferry terminal.

If this is such a sh*thole then why are so many immigrants trying to get in? We don't know how lucky we have it in this country.

 

Depends how you do it. I reckon it cost about 13 grand all-up back in 2005 for us to move to NZ with our belongings, car and two cats.

 

But if you leave a country for all negative reasons - "It's a sht hole" for example - you probably won't be happy wherever you end up either.

[J306TD]

They only want to come here to claim benefits.

Sent from my Galaxy S5

[domhnall]

Fast forward to the referendum then as voting day approached and that poll came out showing that it was neck and neck or even a point ahead for the yes campaign and all of a sudden the parties rushed north and promised more powers to be devolved to Scotland - in effect Devo Max.

 

I have no doubt Alex Salmond would have preferred independence - but for the sake of accuracy he wanted Devo Max as one of 3 options on the referendum ballot (as in 1. YES to independence, 2. Devo Max or 3. NO to independence).  But Mr Cameron, and I'm sure the other parties too, wanted a simple yes or no.

 

Just to be clear, Devo Max is where Scotland raises all its own revenue, all of it. Defence and Foreign affairs are done at a UK level but everything else is down to Holyrood. Scotland would pay into a common pot to fund defence and foreign affairs. 

 

The "more powers" offer which we are currently seeing the London parties back track from are increasing the proportion of its budget raised by Holyrood by around 5%. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is the status quo and 10 is devo max, the "vow" by London is around  2 or 3

[domhnall]

Apologies Domhnall, I miss understood your post.

There was a newspaper info graphic I saw the other day (independent?) which showed the 4 areas that voted overwhelmingly yes including Glasgow and Dundee.

When you dig down into demographics such as unemployment etc etc I guess you can see why those voters were open to the idea of independence. The possibility of something new and possibly a better existence than under the current system.

I'm wondering if the increase in memberships amongst the yes parties correlates to these same 4 areas?

But is it the UK government or Scottish parliament at fault in these areas? I'd guess UK mostly, but that Holyrood isn't exempt from blame.

 

 

I'd actually suggest neither government is to blame as such. Economic activity has tended to follow power which has been centralised in the UK since 1945 by all governments. 

 

It's nuts, in London my colleagues struggle to find schools for their kids because there are too many people. But companies continue to cluster around the seat of power which makes the problem worse but people can't leave because that's where the jobs are. Meanwhile up here we have an ageing and declining population. Our schools are facing a serious situation of declining rolls, within the next 2 years my son's school is due to have no P1 pupils at all. 

 

Such young people as we do have pop out of the education system and find it's a choice between low paid work for which they are over qualified or emigrating. 30% (probably the most able ones) emigrate every year. That in turn means there are fewer people having children in the future which makes the problem of filling schools worse and discourages companies from setting up or remaining here. 

 

There's no direct power available to Holyrood to change this, and Westminster has no desire to give up its own centralised powers but those are part of the problem. 

 

[domhnall]

Depends how you do it. I reckon it cost about 13 grand all-up back in 2005 for us to move to NZ with our belongings, car and two cats.

 

But if you leave a country for all negative reasons - "It's a sht hole" for example - you probably won't be happy wherever you end up either.

 

How does it compare Rob? I've got a few people asking me to think about coming to work in New Zealand in the wake of the referendum, Would be interested to hear how your experience has been.

[jlwah]

The problem for Scotland in having tax raising powers (whether devo max or devo low cal) is that it is very difficult to raise taxes above the rUK's as people will move south. You could lower taxes (corporation in particular) to attract business, but then you raise less money to fund all the social programmes the SNP has. Plus you lose the Barnett formula.

 

I rather suspect that irrespective of what additional or extended powers are offered, Scotland is going to find it quite difficult to apply them in any way that's going to make a meaningful difference to the lives of the Scottish people.

[Aspman]

I suspect we'll have another referendum sooner rather than later. Certainly isn't going to be 40yr.

 

I was surprised Eck felt the need to go. Getting 45% was a massive achievement if you consider the starting position. I suspect he just doesn't feel up to the work involved in keeping the pot boiling. He was looking pretty tired last week.

 

Glasgow..... might as well have put them in Green and blue shirts. They saw an opportunity for a fight and took it.

 

45rs, accept the decision and lay off. You need to convince the 55% to your way of thinking should you get a rerun in the future, which you're not going to do by ****ing them off.

 

Votes were lost by YES through the aggressive nature of some of the proponents, I doubt YES gained any by jumping down the throat of anyone who dared to ask a question.

 

I think a lot of people are feeling a bit political power for the first time. This isn't going to be over anytime soon.

Edited 22 September, 2014 by Aspman

[RobClubley]

How does it compare Rob? I've got a few people asking me to think about coming to work in New Zealand in the wake of the referendum, Would be interested to hear how your experience has been.

 

We've been here nearly nine years now. NZ is home. We treated it as a one way trip - got permanent residency before coming, sold the house, packed everything and brought it.

All or nothing

 

We came here because we came here on holiday and loved it, fancied a change and knew that we'd regret not giving it a shot.

 

Comparing is difficult - for the first year of two you do it constantly, picking up differences, thinking in the pound not the dollar, trying to find your bearings, then you gradually localise yourself.

In general NZ is much less crowded. 4.4 million people in an area larger than the UK, 1.5 million in Auckland alone.

The perception is it's cleaner but it's because of the small population more than the people looking after it better. There are still problems here, socially and otherwise.

Relatively high domestic violence rates and teen suicide rates, people on benefits, gangs, the usual. Not that you see these things daily unless you live in the dodgy areas.

If you look for problems you will find them, and the stuff that bothered you in the UK might also be that same to you here.

 

Nowhere is perfect.

 

Saying that, I think we are much better off than we would be in the UK. Our daughter was born here and I think she will have more freedom to be a child for longer here than the UK and will have a more similar upbringing to the one I had in the 70s/80s UK

 

We went from a 2 bed back to back terrace with no land to a 900sq m section with a 3 bed house and space between us and the neighbours. Space to grow, garden for our daughter to play in and to grow veggies etc. We have chickens!

I earn more here than I did in the UK, being relatively senior in IT. But we have a much bigger mortgage here with higher interest rates.

We're near the sea, in half a day's driving distance of ski fields, mountains, beaches, volcanoes, thermal vents, hot springs, glowworm caves, wildlife parks.

3 hours on a ferry or 45 minutes on a plane takes us to the South Island and some of the most amazing scenery you'll see anywhere.

A 3 hour flight to Aus and you can have all the heat and venomous wildlife you like.

It's much more expensive to travel than in Europe though.

We have no regrets though. We love NZ, miss friends and family of course, but not the UK. Coming back it felt crowded and dirty, but was cheap and had good beer

I've met loads of fellow poms who left because of all the immigrants and fail to see any irony.

 

I also know of quite a few who left the UK for negative reasons and ended up unhappy here, some return, some can't afford to go back.

 

 

Basically it's all about your attitude. If you think the UK is going to the dogs you're not alone, and it seems people have been thinking the same for at least 40 years. But running away from it might not be the right thing to do. Maybe if so many people are unhappy they should get together and change it?

Emigrating gives you the chance to reinvent yourself and learn a huge amount. You have to learn a new culture and history pretty quickly.

But you need to be willing to change and embrace the differences.

[grr666]

No sign of OP.... 

Troll being fed to bursting.... Just one wafer thin mint....

Can't believe he's still blathering on about it tbh. 

[Ootohere]

Maybe you are the troll.

I am reading the replies.

As i the OP said in Post 1.  Root Toot i am oot.

[grr666]

Maybe you are the troll.

 

Nah mate, First I'd have to give a toss. 

And I don't. I'm 'oot' too.  

[Clunkclick]

Now everybody's well into the post-mortem and looking forward to the truth and reconciliation process, the question can now be asked, what were the best jokes (No side intended) ?

 

 

Nick

[domhnall]

We've been here nearly nine years now. NZ is home. We treated it as a one way trip - got permanent residency before coming, sold the house, packed everything and brought it.

All or nothing

 

We came here because we came here on holiday and loved it, fancied a change and knew that we'd regret not giving it a shot.

 

Comparing is difficult - for the first year of two you do it constantly, picking up differences, thinking in the pound not the dollar, trying to find your bearings, then you gradually localise yourself.

In general NZ is much less crowded. 4.4 million people in an area larger than the UK, 1.5 million in Auckland alone.

The perception is it's cleaner but it's because of the small population more than the people looking after it better. There are still problems here, socially and otherwise.

Relatively high domestic violence rates and teen suicide rates, people on benefits, gangs, the usual. Not that you see these things daily unless you live in the dodgy areas.

If you look for problems you will find them, and the stuff that bothered you in the UK might also be that same to you here.

 

Nowhere is perfect.

 

Saying that, I think we are much better off than we would be in the UK. Our daughter was born here and I think she will have more freedom to be a child for longer here than the UK and will have a more similar upbringing to the one I had in the 70s/80s UK

 

We went from a 2 bed back to back terrace with no land to a 900sq m section with a 3 bed house and space between us and the neighbours. Space to grow, garden for our daughter to play in and to grow veggies etc. We have chickens!

I earn more here than I did in the UK, being relatively senior in IT. But we have a much bigger mortgage here with higher interest rates.

We're near the sea, in half a day's driving distance of ski fields, mountains, beaches, volcanoes, thermal vents, hot springs, glowworm caves, wildlife parks.

3 hours on a ferry or 45 minutes on a plane takes us to the South Island and some of the most amazing scenery you'll see anywhere.

A 3 hour flight to Aus and you can have all the heat and venomous wildlife you like.

It's much more expensive to travel than in Europe though.

We have no regrets though. We love NZ, miss friends and family of course, but not the UK. Coming back it felt crowded and dirty, but was cheap and had good beer

I've met loads of fellow poms who left because of all the immigrants and fail to see any irony.

 

I also know of quite a few who left the UK for negative reasons and ended up unhappy here, some return, some can't afford to go back.

 

 

Basically it's all about your attitude. If you think the UK is going to the dogs you're not alone, and it seems people have been thinking the same for at least 40 years. But running away from it might not be the right thing to do. Maybe if so many people are unhappy they should get together and change it?

Emigrating gives you the chance to reinvent yourself and learn a huge amount. You have to learn a new culture and history pretty quickly.

But you need to be willing to change and embrace the differences.

 

thanks Rob, really interesting, As I'm in Scotland , in general what you describe of the situation in the UK isn't really the same here. The big problems I see are a declining population leading to fewer companies basing themselves here, leading to fewer opportunities for my son as he grows up. The suicide rates here are pretty poor here and are part of the reason why life expectancy is declining rather than increasing. 

[Clunkclick]

Is all lost yet ?

 

I wonder if any one's considered the potential, come May next year, for a mutual support and voting agreement between SNP and UKIP.

 

UKIP undertakes to vote in the London Parliament on selected important issues affecting Scotland in accord with SNP advice and SNP in return pledges support for Nigel's Out-Of_Europe campaign up to and including the Euro referendum. Ok it would be a union of prince charming and the ugliest of the ugly sisters (A view which would vary according to which side you were viewing it from), but that might stretch the metropolitan elite's resources and make them a bit more wary about implementing the full menu of self-agrandising measures they've undoubtedly got planned for the UK in the period up to 2017.

 

 

N

[kilted]

I suspect we'll have another referendum sooner rather than later. Certainly isn't going to be 40yr.

 

I was surprised Eck felt the need to go. Getting 45% was a massive achievement if you consider the starting position. I suspect he just doesn't feel up to the work involved in keeping the pot boiling. He was looking pretty tired last week.

 

Glasgow..... might as well have put them in Green and blue shirts. They saw an opportunity for a fight and took it.

 

45rs, accept the decision and lay off. You need to convince the 55% to your way of thinking should you get a rerun in the future, which you're not going to do by ****ing them off.

 

Votes were lost by YES through the aggressive nature of some of the proponents, I doubt YES gained any by jumping down the throat of anyone who dared to ask a question.

 

I think a lot of people are feeling a bit political power for the first time. This isn't going to be over anytime soon.

I agree with so many things in this post.

 

Referendum - will happen sooner rather than later if the pledges aren't kept.

 

Glasgow - always going to be trouble there due to the sectarian side to things. Only surprise was that the police weren't ready for it.

 

45rs and 55rs now have to work together to improve the country rather than being bitter or superior about who voted what. We are all Scots.

 

There was a fair amount of intimidation by all concerned which did no one any credit.

 

And like you, I do think this one has a long way to run before it is over and that includes significant changes south of the border as well

[KenONeill]

Is all lost yet ?

 

I wonder if any one's considered the potential, come May next year, for a mutual support and voting agreement between SNP and UKIP.

 

UKIP undertakes to vote in the London Parliament on selected important issues affecting Scotland in accord with SNP advice and SNP in return pledges support for Nigel's Out-Of_Europe campaign up to and including the Euro referendum. Ok it would be a union of prince charming and the ugliest of the ugly sisters (A view which would vary according to which side you were viewing it from), but that might stretch the metropolitan elite's resources and make them a bit more wary about implementing the full menu of self-agrandising measures they've undoubtedly got planned for the UK in the period up to 2017.

 

 

N

Er, as a generalisation Scotland is much less Euro-sceptic than England.

[slider]

Too much uncertainty in the white paper is why 55% voted no. Pure and simple.

Not sure why labour would be finished in Scotland for voting for the English only voting proposal. Holyrood don't have English MPs voting on Scottish issues....

 Think the Labour issue is actually in Westmimster where they need the Scottish MP's to have any chance of a majority

[slider]

I suspect we'll have another referendum sooner rather than later. Certainly isn't going to be 40yr.

 

 Which is why the UK govt will have to deliver on its promises, otherwise there will be massive pressure for another referendum and a yes vote will be almost certain.

 

For the record I was a No voter and got the result I wanted and expected - promise of more devolution.  I am not so gullible as to expect every single thing Cameron and co have offered - but then only a fool would expect Yes to deliver everything. I passionately believe that the countries of the  World should be getting closer together, not creating divisions but if we dont get (most) of what is promised I might just change tack.

[domhnall]

 Think the Labour issue is actually in Westmimster where they need the Scottish MP's to have any chance of a majority

 

historically that has only been the case twice in the last 100 years that labour has needed Scots to form a majority. I think Labour has no chance of a majority this time with or without Scots votes. 

Re the UKIP SNP alliance that's about as  likely as me flying to the moon for lunch today. The SNP backs the popular view of being at the heart of Europe, UKIP is diametrically opposed to that. 

But since they have nearly doubled their membership numbers over the weekend the SNP will be pretty bullish about chances in May. Labour lost in their core heartlands and were very publicly in bed with the tories. That will hurt them. The SNP overtook the UK lib Dems last night to become the third biggest party in the UK. The Greens have trebled their membership since Thursday. What you are likely to see is a Yes Alliance candidate in every seat next May. 

 

Interesting times, especially for Labour. Last week they were saying "the NHS is safe", yesterday the same people tweeted "Join us to help save the NHS". You couldn't make this stuff up. 

[Ootohere]

Personally i am looking forward now to the General Election in May 2015.

Hopefully an even more Positive Future for Scotland is on the cards.

http://channel4.com/news/snp-membership-soars-politics-scotland-referendum

Edited 23 September, 2014 by goneoffSKi

[cheezemonkhai]

Anyone else think this is just an anti tory vote.