Since I missed my last Briskie HowFast? outing I decided to go on a different date to check out how lowered suspension (Eibach springs installed at the dealers by them), RS-R tyres on lightweight (ish) rims, circa 46kg less weight (rear seats, spare wheel and tools removed) and new NGK plugs perform compared to my last timed lap of 1:35:75

 

It was raining when I was driving to the track on Saturday morning. I had my RS-R's on and nothing else in the boot. I was getting a little bit apprehensive and wondering why bother, it is going to be a skating ring on those tyres.

By the time sessions started it stopped raining but track was wet and greasy.

 

I started gingerly making my way around the track, TC on as taught by a previous experience in similar conditions but different rubber it was a must. Checked my times after few laps and was gutted 1:37:5... I thought "I knew it!"

Car surprisingly was not washing out too much and it wasn't spinning its wheels massively out of corners either.

 

Track was drying up and dry patches was showing up. I thought I will switch the TC off this time, sod it!

 

I was in for a shock! I pulled in after good few laps prepared to find the times crap but... 1:34:5 yaeh! RS-R's were stellar in those half wet, greasy conditions, car had masses of grip, very little understeer on this track (except for that famous corner at the back) and I really enjoyed it! The only problem I still have is brakes, completely useless I am affraid. That is despite racing brake fluid and Brembo HP2000 pads. I suspect there is something wrong with the braking system. Even MSV staff noticed how overheated my brakes were... not sure if it is rotors, air somewhere in the system (I bled them in a normal way and there was nothing but clear fluid coming out of nipples), brake servo fekked up  or some electronics screwing something up? The only way I could brake effectively is to try each time to push the pedal through the bulkhead to engage the emergency braking system. Any advice welcomed. Best practice time was 1:34:135

 

Then came the official two timed laps. I was really concentrating trying not to screw up or overcook it. I obviously did, carried too much speed into corners or missed the apex here or there. Dreaded the time...

1:34:125! So the mods were worth 1.5 secs. Quite happy taking into account track conditions .

 

Did it rain during the sessions, or just a bit left over from earlier on?

 

RS-R are very capable in drying conditions when dry lines form.

Clip any cones?

 

at the last HowFast? I set a 1:33.1 in a stock Fiesta ST3 Mountune, but i did clip one on my last timed lap :/ still not bad for my first time on track.

Braking heat must be from disc/pad contact I'd have thought.

Possibly XDS braking the inside wheel?

Braking heat must be from disc/pad contact I'd have thought.

Possibly XDS braking the inside wheel?

Yes it does that and can cause brake fade due to temperature from constant friction due to XDS

Braking heat must be from disc/pad contact I'd have thought.

Possibly XDS braking the inside wheel?

 

 

My thoughts exactly! It would be interesting to see how the brakes lasted with the XDS turned off. When the TC is turned "off" is it fully off or just mostly reduced? Again, this could be causing the brakes to heat up and cook themselves.

 

I've never really looked too much into it, but the does the Fabia have any slits or anything in the wheel arch to aid brake cooling?

My thoughts exactly! It would be interesting to see how the brakes lasted with the XDS turned off. When the TC is turned "off" is it fully off or just mostly reduced? Again, this could be causing the brakes to heat up and cook themselves.

 

I've never really looked too much into it, but the does the Fabia have any slits or anything in the wheel arch to aid brake cooling?

 

You can't turn the TC/ESP completely off in the Fabia unlike some other hot hatches.

To be fair, it's not really that kind of car.  I don't think you can on any Skoda actually... (IMO)

You can't turn the TC/ESP completely off in the Fabia unlike some other hot hatches.

To be fair, it's not really that kind of car.  I don't think you can on any Skoda actually... (IMO)

 

I thought as much, even with the TC set to "off" it will still be playing a part in whacking the brakes on slightly to make sure you aren't traction limited for too long. I agree, it isn't that kind of car at all, as much as I love mine! :sun:

 

To be fair though, even in the Audi R8 you cannot turn the TC and stability control systems completely off.

To be fair though, even in the Audi R8 you cannot turn the TC and stability control systems completely off.

 

Maybe it's a VAG thing then, as I know I can in the Fiesta ST.

Maybe it's a VAG thing then, as I know I can in the Fiesta ST.

 

Well they are German after all.........

 

The idea of the systems that allow you to be in control and be potentially faster to be turned off in the name of fun just baffles their brains.

It stopped raining as we made our way to the pits from the briefing area. There was no wind to speak of so track was drying really slowly. 

Second training session - I did some laps, cooled down, stopped, then repeat - car and brakes were cool after the break and TC off. In vRS there is only either on or off for TC, nothing else.

I do not think XDS was working at all as I had it engage during previous track days when I went waay to fast in, was about to lose it and xds came in to save me *blushing* - it feels like ABS is engaging on single wheels to arrest the rotational movement of the car. It did not happen this time at all - RS-R's have way to much grip for that . 

I will try to describe to you how the brake feels. When I brake say at the end of pits straight (most of us know the track layout, this is the top speed on the track) I stomp on the brake, bite is instant but wheels are still turning. Pedal goes down as keep all my weight on it and when it reaches a point it suddenly bites much harder and sometimes wheels lock, back dances about then a little bit - at this point if I time it right I am at a point when I need to start turning and I start releasing the brake pedal gradually as I come into the corner. So I could probably say the pedal is spongy first then it bites viciously when emergency braking systems engages, stop lights flash. 

Apart from throwing money at it and getting proper braking system all I can think about is to get VCDS bleeding procedure done and turn down all the electronic helps via VCDS. 

Cheap hardware option would be to get Brembo OEM size discs and see if that helps. This might be an option as I can visibly see a lip forming on the edges of the front disks - thickness is getting down.

I was thinking those - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-A3-Brembo-288mm-Front-Brembo-Max-Brake-Discs-5602/171397894334?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D25291%26meid%3D2b72e876dcb6426abc8cb7e3332e0be4%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D10621%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D171397895280

 

What do you think?

The ESP is still on,

 but TC off. and XDS Set on the lowest setting makes a considerable difference to the Brakes not getting nipped on more than you want.

Clip any cones?

 

at the last HowFast? I set a 1:33.1 in a stock Fiesta ST3 Mountune, but i did clip one on my last timed lap :/ still not bad for my first time on track.

I was milimeters from right hand cones but all my laps counted . That ST3 Montune looks like a very sweet car indeed - 1:33:1, respect!

 

I reckon I could shave around a second, 1.5 secs on fully dry track and with brakes that live up to their function lol.

If I added RARB then even faster as virtually all understeer would have been dialled out!

The ESP is still on,

 but TC off. and XDS Set on the lowest setting makes a considerable difference to the Brakes not getting nipped on more than you want.

 

I need to do that VCDS setup then. Dave was quite happy when he had his done.

indeed, turning off XDS makes a huge difference on track.. MUCH better, and much better for your brakes...

 

I have however turned  it back on now for winter, on bad public roads I prefere it on, on the track its different, you need to keep the brake temps down plus you can modulate your limit of grip with the throttle, brings back some feel about whats going on under your tyres!

 

you still beat me though! lol... I got 134.734

 

well done

Do you know what I found surprisingly positive with those tyres? After the pits straight there is a chicane and quite long left hander. I was always losing grip there and I had to modulate the throttle to get it sorted. With RS-R's it is full throttle all the way!

We need to swap cars next HowFast? !

Jabo, if you are really punishing the brakes (and the lap time suggest they are getting a work out) then perhaps some braided HEL lines will help.

 

I don't know the Brembo pad spec that you have - do you know the operating temps Brembo suggest they will be effective within and how they compare to Yellowstuff or DS2500?

 

I am not sure the sensation you reference above is XDS but rather the stability control kicking in when you start to rotate.  XDS just nibbles away at the inside wheel, you might even feel it less with ultra grippy tyres possibly as the car will probably be less likely to wash out and understeer but the XDS may still be firing a little.  Lowest setting for this will definitely help, but sadly I don't believe it will go completely off.

I am struggling to find proper data sheets for HP2000!

 

I found interesting brake pads bedding procedure on BREMBO website though

 

For information

It is very important to follow proper brake bedding procedure following 

installation. This is necessary not only for optimum performance of the system, 

but also to avoid onset of judder (vibration felt through brake and steering).

When fitting pads to used discs, the discs must be in good condition and be 

within the original manufacturer’s manufacturing tolerances. In case of any 

doubt, new discs should be fitted.

Be aware that with new brake system components, the braking performance 

will be reduced until the pads and discs are fully bedded. 

Use extreme caution while driving the vehicle under these conditions. If done 

on public roads obey all traffic laws and do not endanger yourself or others.

The purpose of this procedure is to gradually increase the temperature in the 

components without thermal shock and to mate the brake pad and disc friction 

surfaces, generating a uniform transfer layer.

Perform at least 20 brake applications using medium deceleration 

(approximately 60% of maximum) starting from 60mph and slowing to 20mph. 

Do not come to a stop. Accelerate back to the starting speed allowing 20-30 

seconds before beginning the next brake application.

A’er completion, drive the vehicle for at least 5 minutes with little or no braking 

in order to adequately cool the components.

When it can be done legally, or on a closed circuit, a secondary bedding 

operation is beneficial. Repeat the above procedure for 5 to 10 brake 

applications increasing the starting speed to 80mph and increasing the 

deceleration rate to 80% of maximum. After completion, drive the vehicle for at 

least 10 minutes with little or no braking in order to adequately cool the 

components.

The system is now ready for normal use. This entire procedure must be 

complete before driving the vehicle as normal. It is especially important that 

this process is completed before any extended same-speed driving is done 

(i.e. Motorway travel). Failure to follow these instructions greatly increases the 

likelihood of judder development.

 

I wrote an e-mail to Brembo asking for full spec sheet.

I will have to try the braided lines, do you have any products suggestions suitable for vRS?

I was milimeters from right hand cones but all my laps counted . That ST3 Montune looks like a very sweet car indeed - 1:33:1, respect!

 

That was his first ever track day.

I managed a 131.4 in the same car, which impressed me.

Makes you wonder much difference you'd get taking the factory spec road tyres off for something better.

 

 

I don't have any insight into your braking issue as it's not like anything I've ever experienced.

Sounds like you are struggling to get a balanced and consistant brake feel/force.

 

 

I also believe that makes you the fastest Fabia mk2 ever at a Bedford How Fast.

Nice work.

Cheers: I am not done with that track yet lol.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head, there is no consistency feel or feedback from the brakes which makes it really difficult to keep improving your times in minute details. 

I need to write to PB brakes and ask them if they have anything for my car and if not if they would be willing to develop it. Not sure if Polo GTI stuff would fit?

 

As for the Ford, they have the best suspension on the market in the class and it not only makes all the difference but shows in the above times. That ST3 montune, how much power does it produce?

I need to write to PB brakes and ask them if they have anything for my car and if not if they would be willing to develop it. Not sure if Polo GTI stuff would fit?

 

As for the Ford, they have the best suspension on the market in the class and it not only makes all the difference but shows in the above times. That ST3 montune, how much power does it produce?

 

They don't list anything IIRC, but Dan at PB does know what he is doing.

They didn't list anything for the Yeti either but here I am with 330mm 6 pot fronts and 300mm 4 pot rears, which fit inside OEM 17" rims.

I do believe they list the Polo GTI or Ibiza so it's just a case of making an educated choice and asking for the templates so you can check caliper clearance.

 

 

The Mountune ST makes 180 stock with an "overboost" of 20bhp for around 15 seconds max.

Mountune adds 15bhp to both of those figures, giving a theoretical top end of 215.

The Seat Ibiza Cupra CTHE from 2013 had the Option for £1,000 of the 'AP Racing' Brakes.  

They actually made all the difference that was required when it came to spirited Road Use.

Not been on a track driving with one.

http://autocar.co.uk/car-review/seat/ibiza-cupra/first-drives/seat-ibiza-cupra-first-drive-review

 

Maybe some Dealership is sitting with a used Ibiza Cupra with them fitted, and worth getting a Road Test of it.

Unaccompanied road test. (Obviously.)

 

http://apracing.com

Edited 16 October, 201411 yr by goneoffSKi

 

I am struggling to find proper data sheets for HP2000!

 

I found interesting brake pads bedding procedure on BREMBO website though

 

For information

It is very important to follow proper brake bedding procedure following 

installation. This is necessary not only for optimum performance of the system, 

but also to avoid onset of judder (vibration felt through brake and steering).

When fitting pads to used discs, the discs must be in good condition and be 

within the original manufacturer’s manufacturing tolerances. In case of any 

doubt, new discs should be fitted.

Be aware that with new brake system components, the braking performance 

will be reduced until the pads and discs are fully bedded. 

Use extreme caution while driving the vehicle under these conditions. If done 

on public roads obey all traffic laws and do not endanger yourself or others.

The purpose of this procedure is to gradually increase the temperature in the 

components without thermal shock and to mate the brake pad and disc friction 

surfaces, generating a uniform transfer layer.

Perform at least 20 brake applications using medium deceleration 

(approximately 60% of maximum) starting from 60mph and slowing to 20mph. 

Do not come to a stop. Accelerate back to the starting speed allowing 20-30 

seconds before beginning the next brake application.

A’er completion, drive the vehicle for at least 5 minutes with little or no braking 

in order to adequately cool the components.

When it can be done legally, or on a closed circuit, a secondary bedding 

operation is beneficial. Repeat the above procedure for 5 to 10 brake 

applications increasing the starting speed to 80mph and increasing the 

deceleration rate to 80% of maximum. After completion, drive the vehicle for at 

least 10 minutes with little or no braking in order to adequately cool the 

components.

The system is now ready for normal use. This entire procedure must be 

complete before driving the vehicle as normal. It is especially important that 

this process is completed before any extended same-speed driving is done 

(i.e. Motorway travel). Failure to follow these instructions greatly increases the 

likelihood of judder development.

 

I wrote an e-mail to Brembo asking for full spec sheet.

I will have to try the braided lines, do you have any products suggestions suitable for vRS?

 

 

http://www.brake-lines.co.uk/automotive/skoda/fabia/

 

Try giving these chaps a call perhaps?

 

I had HEL on my car and were good.

 

It stands to reason that if the brake fluid is getting really hot then the lines to the calipers have to withstand the heat and not expand/bulge etc under strong braking, braided might help with the feel.

Jabo, if you are really punishing the brakes (and the lap time suggest they are getting a work out) then perhaps some braided HEL lines will help.

 

I don't know the Brembo pad spec that you have - do you know the operating temps Brembo suggest they will be effective within and how they compare to Yellowstuff or DS2500?

 

I am not sure the sensation you reference above is XDS but rather the stability control kicking in when you start to rotate.  XDS just nibbles away at the inside wheel, you might even feel it less with ultra grippy tyres possibly as the car will probably be less likely to wash out and understeer but the XDS may still be firing a little.  Lowest setting for this will definitely help, but sadly I don't believe it will go completely off.

you can turn it off completely, at least on the later cars,  ( the options on my 2013 car are different to the optopns on the 2010 car!) on the 2010, you had something like 1,2 and 3 to choose from... on mine it has "off" "low" "medium" "strong" or something along those lines!

I wonder what it is on Nov 2012 CTHE car of mine then Dave? Should be the same as yours logically, no?