bloody excellent. Feels so natural when stopping for a junction. nothing against the 5 speed box, but it was always, shall I go 5th to 3rd to 2nd, 5th straight to 2nd, 5th to 4th? Just so nice to keep the stick down the bottom of the box, up left down, up left down. sorted!

And on a random thread note, I'm off for some tea! I have gammon to try and better!

i like that too dont think i used 3 and 5 lol

bloody excellent. Feels so natural when stopping for a junction. nothing against the 5 speed box' date=' but it was always, shall I go 5th to 3rd to 2nd, 5th straight to 2nd, 5th to 4th? Just so nice to keep the stick down the bottom of the box, up left down, up left down. sorted!

And on a random thread note, I'm off for some tea! I have gammon to try and better! [/quote']

What's the "Better"

i think he means he has a chunk of gammon that he cant let beat him

We've got 2 six-speed cars in the household and I've got so used to them that when I drive the MX5 I forget myself and try and put it into sixth ( which is actually reverse) :eek:

bloody excellent. Feels so natural when stopping for a junction. nothing against the 5 speed box' date=' but it was always, shall I go 5th to 3rd to 2nd, 5th straight to 2nd, 5th to 4th? Just so nice to keep the stick down the bottom of the box, up left down, up left down. sorted!

And on a random thread note, I'm off for some tea! I have gammon to try and better! [/quote']

No need to tell us how good the vRS is :P

bloody excellent. Feels so natural when stopping for a junction. nothing against the 5 speed box' date=' but it was always, shall I go 5th to 3rd to 2nd, 5th straight to 2nd, 5th to 4th? Just so nice to keep the stick down the bottom of the box, up left down, up left down. sorted!

And on a random thread note, I'm off for some tea! I have gammon to try and better! [/quote']

Is it running with boost yet.

Is it running with boost yet.

ahem. Bit is coming though that should flick the switch.

No.1 job tomorrow is leaving car at bodyshop all day to get the front bumper finished off and fitting the car correctly. Should be able to start running with the private plate tomorrow too. Looking forward to that.

Will it be ready for Knockhill on the 15th Oct, we need another Fabia to make our own race series. Its only about 1400 mile round trip for you.

Nah - but have TWO rolling road days I'd like it to be putting out standard boost! And thats the next TWO weekends coming up! :eek: Damn

Thats funny you posted that, today I thought to myself how I go from 6th to 4th to 2nd on rounderbouts

[iAM mode]Hmmm - sorry to poo poo you guys - but using an intermittent gear is wrong... Just remember "brakes to slow, gear to go!". Should be none of this 6 - 4 - 2 malarky - should be 6 - whatever gear you need to pull onto the roundabout in...[/iAM mode]

You're damn right - 6 - 4 - 2 feels good. Really slick, all in the bottom of the box...

The gear box is so slick and tight, isn't it J...

:naughty: he said slick & tight :naughty: :P

It is kinda weird how the 'brakes to slow, gear to go' stuff is being hammered into people. It is fine for a car like the Fabia, don't get me wrong, but in the Rover 100 if you don't want wheels locking up at the front you had better go down the box for slowing down purposes. Yes I tested it - mainly as my fiancee at the time (now SWMBO) was having lessons and kept insisting I shouldnt. I stopped several (!!) carlengths quicker in the Rover when I kept dropping it down the box and letting the clutch come up (pretty hard).

In the Fabia it doesnt make a real diff though, true

That - if you don't let the clutch come up whilst 'following down the gears' you can let it come up when you are finished slowing down and you are in the right gear immediately - which is handy

Hi to All

Interesting one this is. So as I approach a busy roundabout whith reasonable visibility, I have two options. I can continue to slow the car until I can see the gap I intend to use, then change into the appropriate gear. This has one primary advantage. it eliminates a number of gearchnges on the way up to the junction. On the minus side, it puts a gearchange a delay and a potential selection error into the most critical part of the junction. Also, if the point at which the gearchange is decided coincides with when I should be steering, I have to remove a hand from the wheel also!

If I run down to a 5 MPH entry in top, how badly will I be damaging my engine? Perhaps I should coast some of the approach instead?

If you look at the process as being risk management, the approach to a roundabout should be determined in the form of an FMEA (Failure Mode Effect Analysis).

On this basis, the brakes to slow gear to go method has the critical failure possibilities above. IMO a better way to do it is to ascertain a probable or possible intermediate gear based on what you can see on the approach to the junction. Gear selection can then be timed to not coincide with other critical functions. IF the possible situations conspire to allow you to go at the junction, you are already in the correct gear, if not, then you just stop and select first or the next suitable gear anyway.

I believe the IAM are an excellent body and have generally a superb driving method. However, I find the insistence on the one shot gearchange entry to roundabouts and junctions to be genrally designed with the express purpose of increasing the risk of geting it wrong. Maybe this is supposed to demonstrate the skill of the driver, however, it merely demands more at the most risky time of junction entry. So showing off then?

Of course in other situations there are times when the system will work perfectly and others where it will compromise your drive. I read somewhere that rules are for the control of the stupid and the guidance of the wise (or something like that).

Chris

I'd say stick to what works for you, as long as you're not gonna cause an accident!! I know they're teaching people much more for their driving tests these days, but go back 30 years......

My grandad was taught to take it out of gear to go round corners!!!!!

A most scary experience when i started lessons and realised what he was doing. A large amount of any journey with him at the wheel was spent coasting along in neutral!!!!

I'm sorry but I just dont understand the point behind selecting one gear and not going down through the box!

I was always taught by my instructor to go down through the gears when slowing down, and that you should be in gear at all times whilst moving otherwise you will be 'coasting' and effectively not in control of the vehicle.

If your approaching a roundabout in 6th and you then need to select for example 2nd to continue round the roundabout what do you do as you slow down? - if you leave it in 6th you will stall, - if you put it in 2nd you will destroy the engine or come to a very abrupt halt, if you coast you are not in control of the car?

If this is the kind of thing the IAM are teaching people then there licences aren't worth the paper there printed on, besides no matter what kind of licence you have the best kind of drivers are the ones with the most experience & still in control of their faculties!!

I'm sorry but I just dont understand the point behind selecting one gear and not going down through the box!

I was always taught by my instructor to go down through the gears when slowing down' date=' and that you should be in gear at all times whilst moving otherwise you will be 'coasting' and effectively not in control of the vehicle.

If your approaching a roundabout in 6th and you then need to select for example 2nd to continue round the roundabout what do you do as you slow down? - if you leave it in 6th you will stall, - if you put it in 2nd you will destroy the engine or come to a very abrupt halt, if you coast you are not in control of the car?

If this is the kind of thing the IAM are teaching people then there licences aren't worth the paper there printed on, besides no matter what kind of licence you have the best kind of drivers are the ones with the most experience & still in control of their faculties!![/quote']

John

Allow me to give a different view.....

Your instructor taught you to pass your initial test - that's all. This is the absolute minimum to allow you to drive safely on our roads. Most people continue for the rest of thier driving lives with this basic level of instruction, only teaching themselves what are often bad habbits.

Advanced driving techniques as used by the IAM and most other advanced road driving courses are derived from the Police Advanced Driving 'Handbook' and are well proven and accepted.

All I ask you to do is be open minded and maybe even accept that there are people out there who wish to improve thier technique. I feel sure that if you embarked on one of these courses you would almost certainly become a more observant, capable, safer and quicker driver.

BTW I have a fair bit of experience (Police Class 1 instructor and IAM examiner), but I always accept that there is more to learn. I still have all of my faculties.

In my experience, those who do not accept that they would benefit from training, always do.....

I think the furby 6 speed box is so close anyway, that in the time you've braked for a couple of seconds, the time taken to get from 6th to 5th, would mean you're already suited to go into 4th.

With a gradual slowing down from 60 to 10mph, 6th to 4th, (Engage 4th early and let 4th gear revs drop to about 1200, quite low, for engine braking assist) 4th to 2nd for junction (engagaing 2nd at say 20mph ish, maybe less?)

It just feels quite natural

I was taught the same 12 years ago - to use gears to slow down at an approach. However, i have just completed a driving improvement course (after i "bumped" my old car). I was sla66ed off for using my gears so much. I needed to concentrate on the road ahead and not to worry about gears until i got to the junction ahead.

Cars have changed in the last 12 years since i have been driving, and the breaking system these days are far more advanced than then.

How much are new set of breaks in comparison to a new gear box?

I cant get out of the habit though, so i still change down through the box when i approach - ho hum

It's all very well relying totally on the brakes and it's amazing how much they've been improved in recent years but they rely too much these days on vacuum assistance from the engine so....... what happens when the engine dies???

Using the gears has got me out of a couple of scrapes in the past.

Has anoyone heard about the new drive-by-wire braking systems that Mercedes are developing?? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me!!

John

Allow me to give a different view.....

Your instructor taught you to pass your initial test - that's all. This is the absolute minimum to allow you to drive safely on our roads. Most people continue for the rest of thier driving lives with this basic level of instruction' date=' only teaching themselves what are often bad habbits.

Advanced driving techniques as used by the IAM and most other advanced road driving courses are derived from the Police Advanced Driving 'Handbook' and are well proven and accepted.

All I ask you to do is be open minded and maybe even accept that there are people out there who wish to improve thier technique. I feel sure that if you embarked on one of these courses you would almost certainly become a more observant, capable, safer and quicker driver.

BTW I have a fair bit of experience (Police Class 1 instructor and IAM examiner), but I always accept that there is more to learn. I still have all of my faculties.

In my experience, those who do not accept that they would benefit from training, always do.....[/quote']

If you saw the rate at which the police crash their cars round my way you might not think their such good drivers

Seriously though, I would never slate anyone for trying to improve their driving technique, in fact i'm sure their isn't a person on the road that couldn't benefit from some kind of extra training, believe me with the amount of miles I do every year I come across all sorts of idiots out there, just wish I had one of those dashboard mounted cameras to record it all, always dodging drink drivers and suicidal pensioners that cant see over the steering wheel!!

I was required to pass an advanced driving test for my job, however I dont think that i'm the best driver out there, far from it, I just dont agree with the 'one shot gear change' technique unless you are trying to make rapid progress which would probably mean your breaking the speed limit or driving dangerously!

Some of the techniques I was taught are quite good, such as moving over to the right slightly before making a left turn in order to get a better view of what is around the corner before you make the turn (and actually looking round the corner). I was never taught the '1 shot gear change' both my original instructor and my advanced instructor taught me to be in gear at all times and that to be coasting meant you weren't in control.

I usually go down through the gears just matching whatever speed im at to the gear, then hopefully end up in the right one for pulling away... I was also taught 7 years ago to not go down through the gears just to brake take out of gear I was in then select gear to pull away, but my grandad was a driving instructor and used to teach to go down through the gears, maybe its like exams, it get gradually easier as time goes by and less is expected of you...?!?

If you saw the rate at which the police crash their cars round my way you might not think their such good drivers

Seriously though' date=' I would never slate anyone for trying to improve their driving technique, in fact i'm sure their isn't a person on the road that couldn't benefit from some kind of extra training, believe me with the amount of miles I do every year I come across all sorts of idiots out there, just wish I had one of those dashboard mounted cameras to record it all, always dodging drink drivers and suicidal pensioners that cant see over the steering wheel!!

I was required to pass an advanced driving test for my job, however I dont think that i'm the best driver out there, far from it, I just dont agree with the 'one shot gear change' technique unless you are trying to make rapid progress which would probably mean your breaking the speed limit or driving dangerously!

Some of the techniques I was taught are quite good, such as moving over to the right slightly before making a left turn in order to get a better view of what is around the corner before you make the turn (and actually looking round the corner). I was never taught the '1 shot gear change' both my original instructor and my advanced instructor taught me to be in gear at all times and that to be coasting meant you weren't in control.[/quote']

John

Thanks for your views. As I stated, no one is perfect, not even the Police. I would like to see the stats for Police Vehicle accidents before I comment on the police in your area. Be assured though, they have less prangs per head by a long way than members of the public, even though by neccesity they are driving a lot quicker to attend emergencies etc.

Just to bounce back your argument.... The method of gear changing that you prefer has its merits, especially on the track, if you can perfect toe-heel technique, when every second counts. If your advanced(!) instructor states that you should change down through the gears, then as with each gear change you are coasting, sureley only once is better than three or four times!

The main argument against slowing down using the gears is one of grip. Only one set of wheels is being used to slow the car, all of that complicated ABS and brake balace is lost which often leads to loss of control. (I'm gald sometimes - makes the persuits a lot easier and we can stop it before an innocent member of public gets involved. In fact I'm glad some of the 'crims' out there dont use an advanced system of driving - we would never catch them).

What I am trying to say is that most advanced drivers use this system of car control because it has been well proven and it works.

I have no intention of changing your mind, its a free world after all, but I am happy to debate further if you wish.

John

Thanks for your views. As I stated' date=' no one is perfect, not even the Police. I would like to see the stats for Police Vehicle accidents before I comment on the police in your area. Be assured though, they have less prangs per head by a long way than members of the public, even though by neccesity they are driving a lot quicker to attend emergencies etc.[/quote']

I wouldn't have any idea how to find out such info? I guess if you look at it objectively they probably do have fewer accidents per mile than joe public, just there have been a few high profile accidents involving deaths caused by police drivers in the area recently, that was the only real basis for my comment, although i'm sure the vast majority of police drivers are very competent I have personaly witnessed some very poor displays of 'high speed driving' although it has to be said always by young lads in 'panda' cars and never by traffic police or drivers in high performance police vehicles.

Just to bounce back your argument.... The method of gear changing that you prefer has its merits' date=' especially on the track, if you can perfect toe-heel technique, when every second counts. If your advanced(!) instructor states that you should change down through the gears, then as with each gear change you are coasting, sureley only once is better than three or four times![/quote']

point taken! I was taught the advanced techniques at least 10 years ago if not longer! i'm sure there have been many changes to the way they are taught now and i'd be very interested in brushing up and learning any new techniques, in fact this 'debate' has spured me into seriously considering re-learning the techniques and re-taking the test, not only to learn the new techniques but to learn what else has changed aswell! I also hold a racing licence too but haven't been able to get out on track for a few years :(

The main argument against slowing down using the gears is one of grip. Only one set of wheels is being used to slow the car' date=' all of that complicated ABS and brake balace is lost which often leads to loss of control. (I'm gald sometimes - makes the persuits a lot easier and we can stop it before an innocent member of public gets involved. In fact I'm glad some of the 'crims' out there dont use an advanced system of driving - we would never catch them).[/quote']

I wouldn't solely rely on the gears for slowing down, I use a combination of light braking and engine braking by going down through the gears, I find this keeps the car balanced quite nicely, car balance was something taught to me by a racing driver when I was very young, I have to say I find it very usefull to this day, you can accelerate, corner and brake quite quickly without raising complaints from passengers if the car is being driven in a balanced way as it feels much smoother than agressive unbalanced driving.

What I am trying to say is that most advanced drivers use this system of car control because it has been well proven and it works.

I have no intention of changing your mind' date=' its a free world after all, but I am happy to debate further if you wish. [/quote']

As I said, I look forward to re-learning the more modern techniques, and perhaps debating with the instructor over a couple of issues!

Hi again

Firstly, to reiterate what I said about IAM drive, the standard of an advanced motorists drive should be considerably better and thus safer than that of your average or even very good driver who has passed the test and then spent years doing their own thing.

We must define how the car is being driven. For normal road driving:

On the subject of block changing, the main thing to consider is where to use it and where not to. My main concern with block changing is that in certain circumstances, for example approaching roundabouts, there is often a fast changing situation on the junction. Traffic will often be approaching from the right, but may or may not be going straight on or coming accross the front of you. Your gap availability may arrive at a stage when the block changer is still in 6th and will then be required to decide the correct gear for the speed, clutch down (if they are not already coasting to keep the engine from stalling) ,select the correct gear, clutch up and apply the gas. The incremental downshifting driver will have already selected the appropriate gear for that part of the approach to the roundabout. All he has to pay attention to is the observation, throttle and steering. This makes for easier, quicker entry decision making and safer driving (the driver already in the correct gear can keep both hands on the wheel throughout the entry).

The block changer will gain an advantage where the entry to the roundabout is clear and will have a good view of a quietish junction. Here, 1 change decision made early or late (before or after turning to follow the entry of the roundabout) can be made.

I teach both block changing and incremental downshifting as appropriate to road conditions and the situation. For example, I would never advocate approaching a sideroad in 4th, then 3rd, then 2nd. Just brake down to the junction, change down to 2nd and in you go. If you were approaching from 70mph in top however, you may well find the selection of 4th as an intermediate (6th to 4th to 2nd), will assist your matching engine / road speed as you approach and will save you either coasting from the bottom of 6th to a reasonable speed for engaging 2nd or labouring the engine against the idle speed conrtol.

For very fast driving:

Carefully selected heel and toe downchanges, allowing the engine to facilitate braking will help protect those road brakes from fade a while longer, particualrly on faster open roads. Also, when a bend approach is not straight, you may well want some throttle adjustability to help with your setting up for the corner. If you are still in top, when you need the engine braking for balance from 3rd is not good driving. The block change will give the driver less to do but will make for earlier fade. Looking at a bend approach, a 10/10ths application of the brakes from 60 mph will leave you maybe just 2 seconds for a gear change, so slotting down through the box is not an option anyway, so the block change is preferred here.

I teach both techniques and when to use each of them. To date, no test candidate has ever been marked down for it because the key here is to use the method that allows best control, and for that, both systems work, each being the better choice for certain circumstances. Knowing where to use each is the key.

When I was with the IAM, I felt that the emphasis on the one shot approach was really an end in itself for it's own sake, rather than a means to an end ie safer driving. The only conclusion I could find to reasonably justify the one shot gearchange on entry to junctions was that it requires you to approach the junction more slowly. If this is the object it works. I have sat in the car and watched a senoir Police instructor using it approaching a roundabout or 20 and in all honesty, it still looked and felt like unnecesarily hard work and even a bit scrappy when done well. If he had selected an intermediate to suit on approach, his overall speed through the junction could have been higher. And that is why I believe the IAM advocate the one shot change. I discussed this with the IAM seniors at the time. The answer "it works and is well proven" is not good enough for me. You could use that phrase for defending mustard poultices are the cure for bronchitis. We dont do it now because we have something better. Nobody at the IAM could explain why the one shot approach, in the case of roundabouts, was better than an incremental approach. Anyone care to offer a valid reasoning?

Chris