2.0 140 feels underpowered, help please

[dara85]

Car: Octavia Elegance 2008 2.0 PD140, BKD, 130000 on the clock

 

Coming from Fabia VRS (mk1) I thought that the Octavia should feel similar in terms of power to Furby. Yes, Octy is heavier but has 10Nm more torque and is 16v so should slightly compensate the weight difference. Anyway I think that my Octy is a bit powerless but I can’t find what causes it. I'm planning to remap it but want to cure all the problems first.

Symptoms:

When setting of, I have to carefully release the clutch otherwise the engine shuts off – fills like lack of torque.

Acceleration is gutless but not entirely slow, with very small bog down into the seat effect, no matter what gear on.

Doesn’t fire up on the first start of the day – wants to fire up on ~500rpm and either die or revs to ~1200 then settles down to ~830.

This symptoms look like same kind of fuel delivery problem but it’s just a guess and don’t even know how to diagnostic this.

What I did so far:

Cleaned inlet manifold and EGR – gasket replaced with the one with smaller hole

Replaced air filter, cleaned MAF with el. contact cleaner, replaced fuel filter

(all this helped a bit, especially setting off is better)

Replaced engine temp sensor

Checked for boost leaks

Running Miller's additive for second tank now

 

Car has done 130000 miles, could the intercooler be partially blocked with oil residue? It doesn’t go into limp mode during hard acceleration, no excessive black smoke. Also fuel consumption is good.

I have some VCDS logs (thank you andyvee) thinking the timing could be off the limit a bit but it doesn't look off so much.

 

Any ideas?

 

VCDS fault code log:

http://pastebin.com/1LWdC67F

 

idle revs are 819 but jump to 840 occasionally, torsion value jumps between 1.0 and 1.5

 

 

[radders567]

Have you tried moving the turbo actuator arm just to make sure its free to move, although its not logged a fault yet it does sound like the turbo is not doing its job.

[dara85]

Didn't check movement of the actuator yet but I have a can of Mr.Muscle ready and will get on it next weekend. Hopefully will have enough time to clean the intercooler too.
Turbo would explain lack of power but the revs dropping down too much during setting off and problem to start wouldn't be caused by turbo. Somehow I think all this is related to possible fuel delivery problem but have no idea what could cause it and how to diagnose it. Maybe partially clogged up injectors? Failing lift pump or tandem pump?

[radders567]

it could also be the wiring loom in the head at that mileage.

[dara85]

Wouldn't that throw a fault? Any way how to check this - don't want to spend £85 for the loom to find out that it's still the same...

[radders567]

The loom does not tend to throw a fault. The loom normally gives a rough idle, but it could also be as you describe. The loom is extremely hard to diagnose and check. I would look at the turbo first.  After that you could remove the loom and check wire resistances, but this does not always show a problem (ie due to being cold when checked / no engine vibrations etc)

[dara85]

ok, sounds like a plan, thanks

[dara85]

The loom does not tend to throw a fault. The loom normally gives a rough idle, but it could also be as you describe. The loom is extremely hard to diagnose and check. I would look at the turbo first.  After that you could remove the loom and check wire resistances, but this does not always show a problem (ie due to being cold when checked / no engine vibrations etc

 

A little update here.

I have had a time to have a look on the turbo. Because on BKD engine the access from the top is very restricted, jacked it up and lie my back down was the way to go. The actuator moved freely but I took the exhaust pipe off and sprayed Mr. Muscle in anyway. But before that I checked the shaft for side movement and it hardly moved. Also my friened who helped me commented that the turbo looks pretty new. I think we can rule out the turbo.

I will have VCDS available to use soon so will do some live logs. Hopefully I'll get some answers...

[radders567]

Ok, keep me posted and I will see if I can help.  I know you have cleaned the MAF but the MAF may still be causing problems as they don't normally respond well to being cleaned. When you get VCDS access do the measuring blocks on the MAF and check that the coolant temperature sensor is giving sensible readings.  Out of interest how old is the Battery - again do measuring blocks and post the voltages with engine running and without engine running. Has it had the injector recall ?

[dara85]

Thanks for trying to help,
Do you know by any chance if the MAF for pd140 is the same as in pd105 - my friend has this so could swap them over to see any improvements.
No idea how old the battery is. Bought the car in September and don't have any receipt suggesting it's been changed.
No injector recall. That was for pd170 in VRSs iirc.
Never had a chance to use VCDS so will see how successful the measuring will be but will post results here.

[radders567]

Thanks for trying to help,

Do you know by any chance if the MAF for pd140 is the same as in pd105 - my friend has this so could swap them over to see any improvements.

No idea how old the battery is. Bought the car in September and don't have any receipt suggesting it's been changed.

No injector recall. That was for pd170 in VRSs iirc.

Never had a chance to use VCDS so will see how successful the measuring will be but will post results here.

Yes you are right about the injectors. Not sure about the MAF.  Try searching a replacement part on ebay or car parts for less on both cars and see if the part numbers are the same. you could also try disconnecting the maf and driving it to see if the symptoms improve. If they do then this would definitely be the culprit.

[milspectees]

The loom does not tend to throw a fault. The loom normally gives a rough idle, but it could also be as you describe. The loom is extremely hard to diagnose and check. I would look at the turbo first.  After that you could remove the loom and check wire resistances, but this does not always show a problem (ie due to being cold when checked / no engine vibrations etc)

 

If you remove the wiring loom you should replace. Pulling the connectors off often causes more problems.

 

[milspectees]

Ok, keep me posted and I will see if I can help.  I know you have cleaned the MAF but the MAF may still be causing problems as they don't normally respond well to being cleaned. When you get VCDS access do the measuring blocks on the MAF and check that the coolant temperature sensor is giving sensible readings.  Out of interest how old is the Battery - again do measuring blocks and post the voltages with engine running and without engine running. Has it had the injector recall ?

If it is a 140 BKD, there is no injector recall. BKD injectors are BOSCH Pumpe Duse ones not the Siemens ones

[DanialA11]

I would change the maf with a known working one as cleaning does not really sort it have come across this problem with a few friends cars and cleaned improved slightly but a new one made all the diffrence

[nickguzzi]

^^^ my experience too.

[milspectees]

I would change the maf with a known working one as cleaning does not really sort it have come across this problem with a few friends cars and cleaned improved slightly but a new one made all the diffrence

I found this to be absolutely true. Also, if you are going to buy things like MAF's and coolant temperature sensors, shop around. For example call a local Jeep dealer and ask them for parts for their engine code ECD (non DPF VW BKD 2.0 16 valve engine) or ECE (Same engine with a DPF). All the parts (except hoses) will fit. I got a real surprise at how cheap jeep are for some parts, for example a brand spanking ne tandem pump £220 +VAT, CTS £15 inc vat........

[dara85]

Ok, keep me posted and I will see if I can help.  I know you have cleaned the MAF but the MAF may still be causing problems as they don't normally respond well to being cleaned. When you get VCDS access do the measuring blocks on the MAF and check that the coolant temperature sensor is giving sensible readings.  Out of interest how old is the Battery - again do measuring blocks and post the voltages with engine running and without engine running. Has it had the injector recall ?

Didn't have spare time recently but should be better now and I have my hands on VCDS.

So during cold days (really cold...-12 in my place) the battery was giving up so been replaced with Bosch S05. Plenty of cranking power but engine didn't want to fire up for few seconds but eventually fired on 3rd attempt. That was in January. Scanned yesterday - glow plug on 3 cylinder is dead.

Didn't have chance to check or replace anything else but having access to VCDS I can finally move on with this forward although I have no idea how to do certain things.

 

So how do I do measuring blocks on MAF and what sort of readings I should be getting?

[IngusSeflers]

In your case not less than 112 g/s with full load ( 3rd gear-full throttle).

[faboka vrs]

Use 3rd gear when logging and do one log at a time. Carry out WOT from 1500 rpm to 4500 rpm. Do the same for group 8 and group 11. Post the csv log files and I'll take a look.

Just got logs from a healthy pd140 I'm about to map which made 140 on s dyno so can compare.

[IngusSeflers]

 what sort of readings I should be getting?

I'm not use VCDS but on my diagnostic tool live data/flight recorder in my case looks that: 

 

Accelerator pedal to MAX

Actual gear '3'

Air mass 123.4 g/s

Readings from vehicle with 110 BHP

It's very easy to calculate, BHP multiplies with 0.8  and you will get MIN value of required air g/s.

For instance; 110(hp)x0.8=88(g/s) 

[dara85]

Thanks a lot for the info guys. Either friday or saturday will be the logging day, will post the results afterwards.

[dara85]

Use 3rd gear when logging and do one log at a time. Carry out WOT from 1500 rpm to 4500 rpm. Do the same for group 8 and group 11. Post the csv log files and I'll take a look.

Just got logs from a healthy pd140 I'm about to map which made 140 on s dyno so can compare.

Friday afternoon is probably the worst day to do some logging if you live in/near Manchester . Thank god for M602...

 

Well, have done the logs as per Johns instruction but screwed up MAF as I just tested how exactly logging works and forgot to select rewrite file on hot run so the log is from the test drive (and not saying much). Will log it again on Sunday. Don't understand group 8, 9 and what group 13 suppose to do but 11 (boost?) looks good to me which suggest turbo is fine?

Anyway have a look please. Thanks in advance.

LOG-01-003-maf.csv

LOG-01-008-008-fuel1.csv

LOG-01-009-008-fuel2.csv

LOG-01-011-008-boost.csv

LOG-01-013-idle.csv

[dara85]

Right so did second run to log group 3 properly, please see the results and comment.

LOG-01-003-maf.csv

[dara85]

C'mon guys need a little help here, most of it are just a numbers for me:)

[IngusSeflers]

C'mon guys need a little help here, most of it are just a numbers for me:)

For me as well

VCDS use Milligrams per Stroke to measure MAF. Which is not easy to understand

here is some formula how to convert these numbers to Grams per Second .

Just google it