Fair enough - I do accept that there are people who drive slowly enough that it causes problems, but I don't think it's fair to blame them for other peoples' bad driving habits.

This is nearly as bad as "my car beat a xxxxxx" thread. Lighten up folks

Chris

Kill the politicians.

Amen to that ! the best summation of a post yet .

Hi Dazz

NEW driver training is possibly better than it has ever been in the past. A learner on test not attaining a suitable speed for the road conditions will fail. The learner on test will need to demonstrate that they are aware of the requirements' date=' will need to demonstrate that if required they are able to plan and execute overtaking manouvres and will need to show that they are able to drive at a speed that does not hold up other road users.

A very common reason for driving test failure is when the candidate fails to make sufficient progress. As an example from my own local test centres, that means overtaking and progress at 70 on dual carriageways. If you choose to doddle along a 60 when an overtake or clear road is available, you will fail. Also on the local derestriced rural roads, there are several palces where you will fail if someone catches up with you and has to reduce their pace unless you are doing very close to 60.

It is also advocated that on a dual cariageway, should you begin an overtake and the vehicle you are overtaking speeds up, you should accelerate to a slightly higher speed (75 ish) to complete the manouvre. If they speed up to match, you then slow down.

The Pass Plus Scheme (currently optional) allows new drivers to take a 6 hour extension to their training during which, motorway driving, night driving, poor weather driving and a variety of other additional areas are covered. Completion of this course gives the new driver a significant insurance discount.

As for 1.0L supermini, my pupils are currently suffering a Fiesta Zetec. However, next week they will be learning in a nice shiny new Fabia vRS

A major problem is existing drivers. You get the 45mph club. Those that travel down the 60 limit roads at 45, then sail through the 30 zone at 45 as well. Total lack of awareness, and a danger to other road users. They have probably forgotten that if they choose to drive a slow moving vehicle, they are obliged to pull over at the earliest convenience to allow other road users to pass.

You get the lunatic who cuts everyone up to make a few seconds off the journey home. Dangerous by putting the onus to compensate for their lack of patience and road manners on others.

You get the inexperienced youngsters showing off how great they think they are.

You get the stupid gits who dont use the mirrors. One of my pupils, doing an overtake on a dual carriageway at 70mph was nearly run off the road by one of these on Sunday. Towing a caravan, o mirror extensions, just moves right to overtake a moped without looking. No I did not use the dual controls, the pupil handled it perfectly.

And lets not forget the evangelists. Those that sit in the outside lane of any road at bang on the speed limit, while the inside lane is clear. Their warped minds are possibly thinking "oooh, look how safe everyone is behind me now they are all doing 70". "I am a saint and will get my reward in heaven". The sooner the better.

And of course all the assorted unlicensed, uninsured scum.

What is needed are two thing: extended driver training, maybe a compulsory retest every 5 or 10 years and also, a return to courtesy and consideration for others. Hell will freeze over before either of these happen, and when it does, anyone skating above 5mph will be on film.

Chris[/quote']

Hey Chris....

Whilst i have read your post and I already knew that getting a driving

licence is harder, it still does not prepare you for the big ugly roads...

The Pass Plus scheme, is still an optional ( read expensive ) extra..

What the current driving test misses out is how to handle a car on snow/ice,

or how to handle a skid or any other loss of control situation.

The other point i was making about learning in a small not powerfull supermini.. with all respect to the Fabia vRS that in its self is not that quick..

I'm taking about something like an BMW M3 or even upto a Ferrari Enzo..

Different type of car completely... You can drive any of these the minute

after passing your test....

Taking learning to fly as an example of how it should work....

If I want to learn to fly I will firstly have to get earn a Private Pilots Licence PPL - this lets me fly a single engined propellor driven aircraft

during the day. If I then want to fly at night then I have to pass a instruments course. If I want to fly a multi engined aircraft I have to pass this course.. So while the princples of flight and aircraft are the same, rudders, stall speed, flaps etc etc.. a single engined Piper is not the same as a Eurofighter Typhoon..

This then should transfer to driving and cars.. When you pass your test ( the current one ).. This only allows you to have a car that is restricted in

power output. You also are not allowed to drive on the Motorway

a simple plate system should restrict this. Then the new driver should then

pass a Motorway test, take simple skid control lessons, driving in fog, and other conditions. this would then allow them to progress to the next level of power output. There would also be time/age limits for each stage...

If the new driver is caught for dangerous driving etc.. then they would have to resit the test and penalised correctly.

This would give drivers more training and more skills to handle real day to day driving.

cheers

Dazz

Hey Chris....

Whilst i have read your post and I already knew that getting a driving

licence is harder' date=' it still does not prepare you for the big ugly roads...

The Pass Plus scheme, is still an optional ( read expensive ) extra..

What the current driving test misses out is how to handle a car on snow/ice,

or how to handle a skid or any other loss of control situation.

The other point i was making about learning in a small not powerfull supermini.. with all respect to the Fabia vRS that in its self is not that quick..

I'm taking about something like an BMW M3 or even upto a Ferrari Enzo..

Different type of car completely... You can drive any of these the minute

after passing your test....

Taking learning to fly as an example of how it should work....

If I want to learn to fly I will firstly have to get earn a Private Pilots Licence PPL - this lets me fly a single engined propellor driven aircraft

during the day. If I then want to fly at night then I have to pass a instruments course. If I want to fly a multi engined aircraft I have to pass this course.. So while the princples of flight and aircraft are the same, rudders, stall speed, flaps etc etc.. a single engined Piper is not the same as a Eurofighter Typhoon..

This then should transfer to driving and cars.. When you pass your test ( the current one ).. This only allows you to have a car that is restricted in

power output. You also are not allowed to drive on the Motorway

a simple plate system should restrict this. Then the new driver should then

pass a Motorway test, take simple skid control lessons, driving in fog, and other conditions. this would then allow them to progress to the next level of power output. There would also be time/age limits for each stage...

If the new driver is caught for dangerous driving etc.. then they would have to resit the test and penalised correctly.

This would give drivers more training and more skills to handle real day to day driving.

cheers

Dazz[/quote']

Well said...I agree.

You were doing so well, and then you decided to get patronising

Hi

Sorry, I was not trying to intimate that it was you personally. I am referring to the great unwashed who really are often way below par and dont even know it.

It's not always a case of wrong or right' date=' just preferences. If you go out on a Sunday afternoon with your wife, do you drive along twisty country lanes at exactly 60 mph all the way? If so, you must have a very tolerant partner.With the speed differential of 60/45 I'd probably just give the other driver every opportunity to overtake, and yes I do use my mirrors, thanks. I might give him the odd flash of the indicators when an overtaking opportunity arose to let him know I was aware of his presence too. We're not all in a tearing hurry all the time, you know.:cheers:[/quote']

Let us just get away from this idea that I am advocating doing exactly 60mph everywhere. This is ridiculous as if you re read what I said, I advocate the use of appropriate speed. So where 60 is appropriate, that is the speed I will try to travel at. Where 20 is appropriate, 20 it is.

It is just a case of preferences in many situations. How would you like it if you wanted to do 45 and the guy in front only wanted to do 30 for mile after mile and you could not get past? I am sure you would be quite unimpressed. Traffic and road conditions round here quite often mean being stuck behind a tractor and trailer doing 15mph could take 10 or more minutes to pass. Situation is made even worse by those who will not overtake even when there is a suitable opportunity, leading to a long tailback or a chancy overtake down a line of several cars.

I really dont see a problem with those that want to go more slowly than the appropriate speed, providing, as a very few do, that they spot you and allow a pass as soon as practical. However, the vast majority of these 45mph club drivers are dozy tw@ts that would not see you behind them and would not allow you to pass and would not realise they were not making appropriate speed.

Chris

PS, the missus tends to get bored and nods off unless we are moving at a good pace. She only starts complaining on the twisties when we are close to 3 figures. (Kmh obvoiusly) and specifically if an unexpected direction change bounces her head off the side window. All of course, where appropriate.

Of course, your not at all biased being a driving instructor and all! think of all the extra money!

However, I have only been a driving instructor for two years, but an IAM, RoSPA and Roadcraft practitioner since 1986, so sure I would potentially make more money (although I am turning away customers at the moment; too busy) but the benefits would be worthwhile. I see nothing wrong with having to prove ongoing competence.

Chris

Then the new driver should then

pass a Motorway test' date=' take simple skid control lessons, driving in fog, and other conditions. this would then allow them to progress to the next level of power output. There would also be time/age limits for each stage...

If the new driver is caught for dangerous driving etc.. then they would have to resit the test and penalised correctly.

This would give drivers more training and more skills to handle real day to day driving.

cheers

Dazz[/quote']

Too right!!

That way maybe the south wouldn't completely grind to a halt after 2 or 3 flakes of snow hit the ground!!

Car control in adverse weather should be part of the initial driving test - After all this thread has talked about "driving too fast for the conditions" but if people are not aware of the dangers in the first place you are relying more on luck than judgement!!

Hey Chris....

Whilst i have read your post and I already knew that getting a driving

licence is harder' date=' it still does not prepare you for the big ugly roads...

The Pass Plus scheme, is still an optional ( read expensive ) extra..

What the current driving test misses out is how to handle a car on snow/ice,

or how to handle a skid or any other loss of control situation.

The other point i was making about learning in a small not powerfull supermini.. with all respect to the Fabia vRS that in its self is not that quick..

I'm taking about something like an BMW M3 or even upto a Ferrari Enzo..

Different type of car completely... You can drive any of these the minute

after passing your test....

Taking learning to fly as an example of how it should work....

[/quote']

Hi Dazz

The pass plus scheme is expensive, but the insurance savings, not to mention the reduced probability of having an accident, pay for it comfortably and then some.

When conditions permit, I teach on snow and ice, but last two years, this has been around 2 days a year here.

The vRS is not super quick, but even a 1.0l Corsa is quick enough to get you into serious **** if you dont know what you are doing. An Enzo isn not that quick either if you are used to fast bikes. I did want an Aston Vantage to teach pupils in but the ally roof meant the magnetic roof board would fall off.

I am seriously looking into getting my pilots licence. However, would you be happy to pay training fees to get you to the highest possible driving standard? Most could or would not. From what pilot friends have told me, learning to fly is actually a fair bit easier in many respects than driving. Not so much in the way of close proximity hazards up there (and no b@st@rd speed cameras). I will report back after my lessons begin.

As for driving standards, I really do believe that ongoing periodic asessment is a fair and attainable goal.

Chris

Too right!!

That way maybe the south wouldn't completely grind to a halt after 2 or 3 flakes of snow hit the ground!!

Car control in adverse weather should be part of the initial driving test - After all this thread has talked about "driving too fast for the conditions" but if people are not aware of the dangers in the first place you are relying more on luck than judgement!!

It would be excellent if resources were available to allow people to experience skidding and other poor surface conditions. Part of the objective of Pass Plus is to provide guidance, and where possible experince of these conditions and how to deal with them. It is as close as we can get at the moment.

Chris

It would be excellent if resources were available to allow people to experience skidding and other poor surface conditions. Part of the objective of Pass Plus is to provide guidance' date=' and where possible experince of these conditions and how to deal with them. It is as close as we can get at the moment.

Chris[/quote']

It should just be part of the cost of learning to drive as the new theory test and hazard thingy are. If that means that some people have to save a bit harder in order to get on the road then so be it. They'll be better drivers because of it and maybe our insurance might go down a wee bit too!

It is just a case of preferences in many situations. How would you like it if you wanted to do 45 and the guy in front only wanted to do 30 for mile after mile and you could not get past?

I would be frustrated, maybe, but I wouldn't be calling for him to have extra training just because he didn't choose to do 60mph. If a queue developed behind him, I might hope he would pull over and let some past, and be grateful to him if he did, but I wouldn't let it make me personally vindictive towards him or her.

Your Mrs is different from mine

Hi Dazz

The pass plus scheme is expensive' date=' but the insurance savings, not to mention the reduced probability of having an accident, pay for it comfortably and then some.

When conditions permit, I teach on snow and ice, but last two years, this has been around 2 days a year here.

The vRS is not super quick, but even a 1.0l Corsa is quick enough to get you into serious **** if you dont know what you are doing. An Enzo isn not that quick either if you are used to fast bikes. I did want an Aston Vantage to teach pupils in but the ally roof meant the magnetic roof board would fall off.

I am seriously looking into getting my pilots licence. However, would you be happy to pay training fees to get you to the highest possible driving standard? Most could or would not. From what pilot friends have told me, learning to fly is actually a fair bit easier in many respects than driving. Not so much in the way of close proximity hazards up there (and no b@st@rd speed cameras). I will report back after my lessons begin.

As for driving standards, I really do believe that ongoing periodic asessment is a fair and attainable goal.

Chris[/quote']

Chris..

Oh course a 1.0 Corsa can get to the MW speed limit eventually..

But it has not got the power to get to serious speeds or get serious wheelspin... etc..

where as even an BMW M3 in inexperienced hands will be far more lethal..

The extra power and handling will instill more confidence to go faster.. until

something happens where a experienced driver would know how to react and aviod correctly..

You can crash and die in a Ceesna.. But it still takes far more training and skill to fly a Tornado or Airbus..... Thats why the pilots in Airliners and airforce are of a far higher skill / experience level than you average PPL first timer.....

How much money do insurance companies and all of us pay out for inexperienced drivers? in terms of insurance and injuries and deaths?

Would'nt it be better and would have the effect to reduce accidents

and road congestion thus saving money that then insteasd of paying

out in claims etc could be channeled into making drivers safer with more skills?

With the daft comparison between a Enzo and a Superbike... The licencing

and triaining on bikes has got far harder.. With new riders having to pass a CBT then progessing through different power limits, this is to hopefully reduce

accidents etc.. With riders overpowered on bikes that are so far removed from the 125 they passed there test on..

So yes I would be all for different levels of training in order to drive a car better and safer.. It would hurt in terms of paying for it, but that should reflect savings in insurance...

cheers

Dazz

If anyone is reading this and hasn't passed their test, I'd like to point out that the Pass Plus scheme 'could' be useless. I paid

SWMBO did an advanced pass plus doodad thingy,

She did a lesson on the skid pan and some other stuff like that and she saved quite a bit on her insurance.

Technically she is more experienced than me in certain scenarios despite the fact I have probably driven thousands of times the mileage she has because I have rarely been in a situation where I have lost control of my vehicle, a combination of luck and judgement.

I learnt alot when I lost control and came off the road in my 'festa van on black ice one morning, this was about 6 months after my test and I wish I could have experienced it in a controlled environment i.e. a skid pan.

If anyone is reading this and hasn't passed their test, I'd like to point out that the Pass Plus scheme 'could' be useless. I paid

I went to his house to pick it up. I was 17 when I passed and was insured with Norwich Union who do take part in the scheme but the couldn't budge on their premium of

I went to his house to pick it up. I was 17 when I passed and was insured with Norwich Union who do take part in the scheme but the couldn't budge on their premium of

Chris, I remember when I passed, it was midweek and I was due to make a journey of about 120 miles that weekend. I passed with just 6 minors and by Saturday, I'd got my certificate for pass plus, bought a clapped out VX Astra that had done about 320k and drove on some busy motorways. I was scared! I do wish I had done some training as part of my driving instruction.