4x4 experiences

[Stianol]

I come from an octavia 4x4 mkii (haldex 2), and now have a 4x4 dsg 1.8 tsi.

Overall I am very happy with the performance, but when having parked on very slippery surfaces (wet ice) with a bump I need to get over, I have experienced that i don't get over on first attempt and one wheel starts spinning. It is a little better when turning Anti-spin off.

With my old octavia I never encountered this.

Could it be one of the following:

1) I have 18" winter tyres on this, whereas I had 15" on the old.

2) the old was a manual. Maybe you have better traction control with it than DSG?

3) haldex 2 was simply better in this condition than haldex 5?

4) there is something wrong with my car (I don't really suspect this)?

[johnthesparky]

Not got mine yet, but am interested in the replies

On my vw transporter 4motion, there is a rear physical diff lock (which I know the cars don't get). So that is straightforward locked back axle.

The front has an 'electronic diff lock' which I believe brakes the spinning front wheel to put power to the non spinning...

When I became stuck, axle deep in mud and couldn't get drive to the rear, you could see the front wandering about and actually getting some traction (just not enough to drag a 3ton van out.... That took a fendt!)

I assumed the octy had this electronic system to front and back, but I guess ice is a bit extreme for anything as the friction is so low

[Stianol]

Yes. It happens only on very slippery ice. But I have parked the same place in equal conditions with my old car and it got out without trouble at all. I suspect it is the difference in tyres and not the 4x4 system itself.

Accelerating on snowy roads is a blast. Very good acceleration and the electronic does a good job in keeping the car stable.

[fatzy]

Strange, has not experienced that myself.

Some observations:

- handbrake 'sticks' after overnight parking. When setting off, a distinct force is required to overcome this.

- the DSG is a little sluggish (kind of lazy/slow engagement of the clutch) during setting off when trying to be gentle

- 195/65-15 is generally more grippy than 225/40-18, that is in conditions you describe.

Do you have unstudded?

[Stianol]

Yes. Unstudded. Live in Oslo in Norway, and most of the winter the roads are salted or just wet. Or when going to the cabin, the roads are covered with snow, so unstudded is most suited for me. With studds it would have been no problem.

I have always gotten out of the parking, but not so effortless as with the old car.

I also see that most other octavias here have less than 18", probably 17", so guess that is the main reason.

I have not had the problem with sticking handbrake at all, but read about other who had that.

And I know what you mean by the DSG being a little slow when setting of gently. It takes a little time before reacting. I come from a manual, and then you are already at the point of clutch engaging when setting off. But with DSG you are at the start of the procedure when wanting to set off. Maybe it is just something with the timing of when to press the accelerator when driving DSG. I'll see if I adopt more to it over time.

[kallekilponen]

And I know what you mean by the DSG being a little slow when setting of gently. It takes a little time before reacting. I come from a manual, and then you are already at the point of clutch engaging when setting off. But with DSG you are at the start of the procedure when wanting to set off. Maybe it is just something with the timing of when to press the accelerator when driving DSG. I'll see if I adopt more to it over time.

I just recently got access to a private garage in our apartment building. The garage has a distinct lip, about 10 cm in height, because of how the door mechanism works. I've noticed I have to either build up the revs or to take on a little speed in over to overcome that. It's not a problem with our current Volvo and its torque converter automatic, but I wonder if I have to get used to always using the high speed approach on the Octavia, so i don't wear out the clutch on the DSG.

 

I just prefer creeping up on it, since the door isn't exactly roomy, I have to fold in the mirrors in order to fit though...not much margin for error.

Edited 12 February, 2015 by kallekilponen

[fatzy]

205/50-17 works just fine as winter tyres! I must have built a sloped ramp as a 10 cm hurdle would hurt my spoiler (not the best winter feature).

[Stianol]

Guess I'll have to try another dimension next time I get new winter tyres.

[Yeti_Man]

I come from an octavia 4x4 mkii (haldex 2), and now have a 4x4 dsg 1.8 tsi.

Overall I am very happy with the performance, but when having parked on very slippery surfaces (wet ice) with a bump I need to get over, I have experienced that i don't get over on first attempt and one wheel starts spinning. It is a little better when turning Anti-spin off.

With my old octavia I never encountered this.

Could it be one of the following:

1) I have 18" winter tyres on this, whereas I had 15" on the old.

2) the old was a manual. Maybe you have better traction control with it than DSG?

3) haldex 2 was simply better in this condition than haldex 5?

4) there is something wrong with my car (I don't really suspect this)?

Does the newest 5th generation Haldex always start off from standstill in awd like the gen. 4 system does?

[Genoa1893]

I think I've read somewhere that it should be preloaded at 90% (front) / 10% (rear).

 

But I did a small search, and this doesn't seem the case:

 

http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?177772-Haldex-GenV-Performance/page2

 

While Volvo sporting Haldex V advertise a 95/5 (front to rear)

 

Edited 14 February, 2015 by Genoa1893

[Sheldon.Cooper]

Found a really interesting 4x4 comparisson on youtube a while ago.

 

Had 4 cars in a garage on a system where the cars sat on a platform, each wheel on rollers which could be individually locked or free rotating.

 

The cars were an Audi A3, Volvo, Subaru and some american make.

 

All cars went through identical scenarios.

 

The ultimate test was to have 3 rollers free rotating and 1 locked (to simulate drive to a single wheel only).

 

Only the subaru drove forward.  Every other car span their other wheels going nowhere.

 

Not all 4x4 systems are equal and VAG systems aren't anywhere near the best.

[llandai]

205/50-17 works just fine as winter tyres! I must have built a sloped ramp as a 10 cm hurdle would hurt my spoiler (not the best winter feature).IMG_20150128_191521.JPG

Is that the SuperSkoda splitter or a different one?

[kallekilponen]

Found a really interesting 4x4 comparisson on youtube a while ago.

 

Had 4 cars in a garage on a system where the cars sat on a platform, each wheel on rollers which could be individually locked or free rotating.

 

The cars were an Audi A3, Volvo, Subaru and some american make.

 

All cars went through identical scenarios.

 

The ultimate test was to have 3 rollers free rotating and 1 locked (to simulate drive to a single wheel only).

 

Only the subaru drove forward.  Every other car span their other wheels going nowhere.

 

Not all 4x4 systems are equal and VAG systems aren't anywhere near the best.

That's really a test of the diff locks more than just the AWD system itself. Since most standard (non offroader) cars only have electronic diff locks (EDS, XDS...), meaning that they use the ABS system to brake each individual wheel to prevent slippage and to transfer torque to the other wheels, weather cars can handle these situations is really up to the software choices made by the car manufacturer.

 

The actual components that control the systems come from just a couple of manufacturers, so most of the brand related differences are due to coding made for the brand in question, and not the systems themselves. They did some pretty extensive testing on these systems in the latest issue of Tekniikan Maailma here in Finland and found some interesting differences in how the software reacts to slippage even within the same brand.

 

In the test the electronic diff locks performed the best on Mitsubishi, Opel performed nicely while allowing some slipping, the system on the Mercedes stopped the free spinning wheel immediately upon touching the accelerator and started moving forward. Skoda and VW performed well, but the system operation was choppy, and not as smooth as some of the other brands, especially coupled with the DSG gearbox. What was interesting that even though BMW and Mini use the same system, Mini seemed to deal with differences in traction quicker than BMW.

[fatzy]

Is that the SuperSkoda splitter or a different one?

Yes, it's the DTM spoiler from Superskoda. Mine is painted though.

[cerumen]

minute 5.40

the 4x4 in mud, with I think excelent performance see also minute 5.40 and onwards the Haldex 5 works also with reverse gear (but you must have spinning wheels :-))

 

The performance of the haldex clutch is for non rally driver mor than perfect.

BR

Cerumen

[73henny]

Found a really interesting 4x4 comparisson on youtube a while ago.

 

Had 4 cars in a garage on a system where the cars sat on a platform, each wheel on rollers which could be individually locked or free rotating.

 

The cars were an Audi A3, Volvo, Subaru and some american make.

 

All cars went through identical scenarios.

 

The ultimate test was to have 3 rollers free rotating and 1 locked (to simulate drive to a single wheel only).

 

Only the subaru drove forward.  Every other car span their other wheels going nowhere.

 

Not all 4x4 systems are equal and VAG systems aren't anywhere near the best.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

Subaru's AWD is 'symmetrical', such that all the drive shafts are the same length. Power will take the path of least resistance, so having a 'symmetrical drive train means there is no difference between drive to each wheel. Also, the poor 'part time' 4wd systems are let down by the inherent flaw that they all have, namely that as soon as the power is transferred to the rear axle, and the car moves forward, its instantaneously removed again. So the car is back where it started - stuck. 

[paddy wagon]

Very impressive video for what is arguably a family estate.

Does anyone know what tyres a Scout is fitted with from the factory?

[Stianol]

I just came back from the mountain. Had to start in a steep snow covered hill from stand still, and that was no trouble at all. It performed very well in that condition.

It is only when driving over this ice covered bump from parkering that I have had some wheel spin.

[73henny]

minute 5.40

the 4x4 in mud, with I think excelent performance see also minute 5.40 and onwards the Haldex 5 works also with reverse gear (but you must have spinning wheels :-))

 

The performance of the haldex clutch is for non rally driver mor than perfect.

BR

Cerumen

 

At 7.00 you can see the limitations of a haldex system. The weight will be on that back wheel, and thus have some grip, but its doing nothing as the power is taking the path of least resistance through the wheels with no grip. Pretty poor really.

[johnthesparky]

It'd be upsetting if it was a LandRover, but it's only a road based estate car, on road tyres.... If you could drive around the obsticle to the same place then it's irrelevant surely? Just the limitations of the system :-/

[Yeti_Man]

It'd be upsetting if it was a LandRover, but it's only a road based estate car, on road tyres.... If you could drive around the obsticle to the same place then it's irrelevant surely? Just the limitations of the system :-/

Why do I get the feeling that haldex 5 seems less capable than gen 4 systems? They don't appear to be as willing to push power to the rear wheels from the videos I've seen so far and I'm pretty sure I've coped with far worse in the Yeti. (Unless the shorter wheelbase and better ramp over ability really makes a difference here?)

[doctored]

Not too bad for standard tyres, I reckon it would have made it with better rubber.

The new discovery sport has gen 5 haldex so the system can't be too bad.

I thought the car was supposed to have an electronic diff lock though?