Was out with my mechanic and I noticed while he was driving, a lot of the time he didn't use the clutch.

He told me it saves wear on it and most gearboxes synchromesh are so good they rarely need it. I could never get the hang of it in my Type R (big spread over the Rev range) but changing UP from 2/3/4/5/6 at between 2000-2500 is a doddle in the diesel VRs.

Not mastered changing down, or 1st to 2nd, but wonderfully slick gearbox for going up through the gears. And obviously you still need the clutch for stopping and starting.

No responsibility if you get it wrong etc etc, try at your own risk, but accelerating calmly. It's a cinch.

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I also am a fan of clutchless changes, as you say up through 2/3/4/5/6 is a doddle with the right timing and throttle application.

 

I'm still as quick as a whistle at "double de clutch" changes or though sadly not needed these days on Synchro mesh gearboxes but I still like to do it from time to time!.

It's to cut a zillionth off the 0-60 time.... Mike

Although a useful skill to occasionally practise (so that in the case of clutch failure you can get home), I wouldn't do it routinely as it will cause excessive wear to the syncromesh rings. Knocking it out of gear while coasting without using the clutch should not cause any issues. 

As far as I'm concerned (and I'm a qualified driving instructor), it pains me to hear of folks not driving vehicles as they are designed to be driven. The clutch is there for a reason -- to use whilst changing gear. If it wasn't needed, the manufacturers would not provide it.

 

Why folks have to try to be smart and think they can drive better beats me

 

Mike

I have to disagree. The gear lever is for changing gear. The clutch is there to bridge a mismatch in engine and transmission speeds. If there's no mismatch, there's no purpose in its operation.

Personally, as far as clutchless driving goes, I can, but I don't. However, I'm generally pretty light on the clutch anyway.

Am wit Mike

And having put 253,000 miles on an origional  clutch in a mildy "tweeked" 110BHP 1.9TDI, incl towing heavy trailer occassionally.

And most of the miles in daily urban grind.

It was still perfect when parked up.

Absolutly no wear detectable.

But, I suspect I was hardly "using" the clutch, despite fully dipping the pedal each time I change gear.

And i kept changing gear to stay in "the sweet spot" of engine revs.

Edited 12 March, 201511 yr by dieseldogg

Although a useful skill to occasionally practise (so that in the case of clutch failure you can get home), I wouldn't do it routinely as it will cause excessive wear to the syncromesh rings. Knocking it out of gear while coasting without using the clutch should not cause any issues. 

 

 

I couldn't agree more, having only had to do it twice due to a broken clutch cable (Ford Sierra), and a faulty slave cylinder (Alfa Giulietta). The Ford was the first time I tried it, and it was about thirty miles on quiet roads in the dark, so no stress. An AA man told me how to do it, and how to pull away from any traffic lights by starting the car in 2nd gear.

The second time was infinitely more nerve racking because my mum was a passenger and we were coming back to Kent from Central London, when the clutch went at Elephant and Castle. I managed to get it back OK but I was absolutely knackered at the end of the journey, and my dad was pretty furious at me

I drove a Vauxhall VX-4/90 from Ludlow to Bristol after the clutch failed ( M5 not completed in those days) and also drove a Peugeot 309 for a few miles in heavy traffic when the clutch cable broke. Driving without a working clutch does wonders for your anticipation!

My wife had the clutch cable break in a Ford Escort when she was just starting to drive down a long hill with the local Ford dealer at the bottom. I am never that lucky.

I now drive a car with DSG so a clutch pack failure would definitely require a call for recovery.

buy a auto......

if the car has 3 pedels people, please use them.

If done properly, it causes no wear. It's fun to master and you can tell by the way the 'box switches, it causes no damage.

Appreciate its not everyone's cup of tea though, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If I break it, it's my fault.

But I've known my mechanic 20 years, he's VW Audi trained technician. I trust him and well, I know he knows his stuff. If it was doing any harm, he wouldn't suggest it.

I enjoy driving, changing gear is part of the process I enjoy, doing it without the clutch is a skill. I like mastering new skills and I prefer the feel of getting it right. Pulling away, I use the clutch, changing down I do too.

Been out for a drive with the family and no one even noticed I wasn't using the clutch. That's how smooth the gear box is.

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Oh and it's has absolutely nothing to do with quick 0-60 times quite the opposite. You cannot change up at 4-5000 revs without the clutch. You have to be driving very very sedately. Even up an incline, the clutch must be used as the deceleration makes it very difficult.

Flat, calm, and it's more enjoyable than using the clutch and as far as I'm concerned causes no harm.

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how ?

 

i am interested ! but doubt I will try it

Oh and it's has absolutely nothing to do with quick 0-60 times quite the opposite. You cannot change up at 4-5000 revs without the clutch. You have to be driving very very sedately. Even up an incline, the clutch must be used as the deceleration makes it very difficult.

Flat, calm, and it's more enjoyable than using the clutch and as far as I'm concerned causes no harm.

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This

If done properly, it causes no wear. 

 

I'm afraid it does. No matter how much you practice you will never rev match the engine and gear box precisely down to the last RPM, which is what would be required to cause no wear on the synchromesh mechanism. 

 

Quote on operation of Synchromesh on manual transmission from wikipedia:-

 

"The synchronizer has to overcome the momentum of the entire input shaft and clutch disk when it is changing shaft rpm to match the new gear ratio. It can be abused by exposure to the momentum and power of the engine, which is what happens when attempts are made to select a gear without fully disengaging the clutch. This causes extra wear on the rings and sleeves, reducing their service life. When an experimenting driver tries to "match the revs" on a synchronized transmission and force it into gear without using the clutch, the synchronizer will make up for any discrepancy in RPM. The success in engaging the gear without clutching can deceive the driver into thinking that the RPM of the layshaft and transmission were actually exactly matched."  

 

A useful skill to master, but not something I would do all the time. I recall back in the 1980's my Dad was an HGV driver and his tractor unit developed a clutch fault where the clutch would not fully disengage. He reported it to his (small dodgy haulage firm) boss who told him to live with it and he'd have the truck in for repair when there was a gap in the haulage schedule. My dad wasn't bothered...the first trucks he drove in the 1970's had crash gearboxes so he was used to double clutching. A month later (the truck still had not been in for repair) the expensive 18 speed gearbox completely failed due to wear caused by driving with limited clutch.....and truckers are pretty expert at rev matching.       

No one, no matter how good they are will not get the revs matched perfectly so trying to change gear without using the clutch will vastly increase the wear on the synchro cones in the gearbox simply due to the fact that by not disengaging the clutch the synchro is not only trying to match up the speeds of the gearbox shafts but also that of the engine and road wheels. It is much easier and cheaper to change a clutch than to rebuild a gearbox.

Ian

This

 

What ? Flat, calm ?  Those aren't instructions on how to drive clutch-less ...

Yes, you have to go out and do your clutch less changes on a sea that resembles a mill pond.

That and the other 49 words in the post that help describe how you can drive a car without using the clutch.

Nice. Youtube explained it a lot better. Thanks for trying though!

Let me go edit the Wikipedia article. Brb

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http://www.ehow.com/how_2000670_clutchless-shift.html

No mention of damage here....

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At high speed (because you're going to decelerate) put your foot on the clutch, gently move, (but don't shift), from gear to gear. Just before it slots it, you'll hear various whirring sounds, lower the gear, the higher the sound. The synchromesh does its job whether you have your foot on the clutch or not. That's with nil resistance though.

But yes, if the revs aren't matched, it'll increase wear. And as mentioned over and over....

1 it isn't for everyone

2 you can only do it when the circumstances won't cause wear.

If in doubt use the clutch.

Also.... Some gearboxes are simply too tight to do it with. These tend to be high revving petrol engines.

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how ?

i am interested ! but doubt I will try it

This is the very reason I posted originally.

Didn't intend to start such a heated debate.

I didn't know it was a thing until I was told about it. Just sharing the knowledge.

Feels very satisfying when you get it right.

I have it on good authority from someone i trust that it's fine.

Trust the advice of other users on here though and the experts at Wikipedia and don't don't it!! Your car may explode.

You have been warned.

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The synchromesh does its job whether you have your foot on the clutch or not. That's with nil resistance though.

 

 

But with your foot off the clutch it has to overcome the entire momentum of the car to sync the gears, whereas with the clutch pressed it only has to overcome the momentum of the input shaft of the gearbox.  

 

Didn't intend to start such a heated debate.

 

 

Nah, this isn't a headed debate....the thread isn't even close to being locked!

 

Seriously though, ultimately it is no concern of me what way you change gear. What concerned me is that someone could read your statement that "done properly, it causes no wear" and think there will never be any expensive consequences of this type of driving on the gearbox.

 

As I said, it is a useful skill to master, but not to use as a permanent driving technique when you have a perfectly serviceable clutch....unless you like rebuilding transmissions.    

Probably wouldn't have bothered trying if the bloody clutch was smooth, but Mitchell Skoda have already replaced one and this new one is clicking too now. They replaced the master cylinder apparently, but this one is no better.

Click, in.

Gear change

Out click.

Does my head in.

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All this ignores the fact that it is essentially mucking about on public roads. Why anyone would advocate trying to learn a new skill while there are vulnerable road users everywhere is beyond me. I am all for spirited driving but in the way the car is intended to be used. A badly timed change could lead to sudden deceleration/acceleration that neither the driver or those around would be expecting (esp due to lack of brake lights etc). There are enough numptys on the road already without this kind of thing.