I'm looking for optimal disc rotor for my front brakes to avoid overheating. If you're interested, check out video aftermath of Ferodo DS2500 on factory tuned car.

 

 

While, I'm surprised brakes still brake after glowing orange rotors - it will get only worst once I get all according to spec of Hajes Racing.

 

 

Of course, I've read about "Not so big brake upgrade kit" and observed results of some Romanian guy on Golf forum.

 

 

From what I've seen - Dave from vagbremsetechnik uses OEM rotors and mill "J" hooks. New alloy rims increase air flow slightly but it won't make any substantial impact.

 

I wonder if anyone tested rotors from high-carbon materials such as Brembo Sport series discs or USR slotted discs. There is little difference between OEM and "premium" rotors - the only difference is price and marketing.

I opted for 323mm rotors and Brembo callipers off the Seat Leon, grooved EBC discs, I have Ferodo DS3000 pads fitted. I have ducting to fit to keep them cool but have not fitted this yet, the brakes have driven three track days without issue.

 

 

 My personal view is that driving style has a lot to do with how well brakes cope on track, if your driving style is full power and then stand on the brakes as late as possible for every corner then you need to be smoother on the brakes, better learn your lines and carry some of that speed around the corner, get an instructor on board and ask him to show you trail braking so turn in is more precise and braking happens with less aggression.

 

 Have you checked you have your discs on the correct side of the car? The discs I have are vented in such a way they are directional, might be worth a check.

 

 You also have to consider that a trackday car will always be much heavier than a purpose built race car, your brakes are nowhere near as well suited to the track but have more weight to slow down.

 

 So, have a look at this thread about brakes, consider large ducting to blast air over your brakes and also think about carrying more speed and using your brakes more efficiently.

 

Brake Information

I'm looking for optimal disc rotor for my front brakes to avoid overheating. If you're interested, check out video aftermath of Ferodo DS2500 on factory tuned car.

While, I'm surprised brakes still brake after glowing orange rotors - it will get only worst once I get all according to spec of Hajes Racing.

Of course, I've read about "Not so big brake upgrade kit" and observed results of some Romanian guy on Golf forum.

From what I've seen - Dave from vagbremsetechnik uses OEM rotors and mill "J" hooks. New alloy rims increase air flow slightly but it won't make any substantial impact.

I wonder if anyone tested rotors from high-carbon materials such as Brembo Sport series discs or USR slotted discs. There is little difference between OEM and "premium" rotors - the only difference is price and marketing.

Interesting post. First question would be what size are your disks? Are you running 312mm disks? You've done an impressive job on those disks I have to say! I've done lots of harsh drives including the Grossglockner High Alpine Road quite a few times on DS2500s with the VRS 312mm discs and ATE Superblue fluid on the Yeti (whilst carrying over 300kg of camping equipment) and I've had them smoking heavily but not red hot like that! IMO what I'm currently running is the best setup I've had for pedal feel and ability but if you are pushing as hard as you obviously are I'd recommend either bigger disks (for better heat dissipation ability) or a change of driving style, making braking less on and off and smoother overall.

In terms of disk quality, I think there is a difference between the simpler ones that meet OE spec. (I dont like drilled or grooved disks as personally i think its a load of marketing hype - many disagree with me on this however) I can kill ECP supplied Pagid discs fairly quickly. I find the casting and material quality of Brembo front discs are the best for me but they are 40% more to buy. Another example of getting what you pay for I guess. I'm just about to do an overhaul on my brakes front and rear and am currently in the process of fitting the larger Cayman S ferodo DS2500 into my Porsche NQSBBK - giving an additional 20% increase in pad to disk surface - check out my project thread for info but this setup could suit your needs very well.

Also, I wouldn't underestimate the effect of good brake ducting and a more open style of wheel design for cooling benefits.

Thanks James I, my days of aggressive unskilled driver style are long gone. Always smooth & steady - I do brake earlier (it is factory tuned, heavy nose dive car as most cars) and of course I trail brake.

 

Issue is alpine roads are not track - it doesn't matter how smooth & steady are you. You can't beat natural forces. If you have descend 30-45deg, you'll overheat no matter what. If you want fun, you can't drive like on the way to shopping mall right ;-)

 

Thanks for link...saw it already few months ago.

 

Project of air cooling is in my head but factory rims are not well suited for optimal air flow. I do not certainly want poorly designed air ducts channeling air on one side of disc - it is certain recipe for disaster.

Interesting post. First question would be what size are your disks? Are you running 312mm disks? You've done an impressive job on those disks I have to say! I've done lots of harsh drives including the Grossglockner High Alpine Road quite a few times on DS2500s with the VRS 312mm discs and ATE Superblue fluid on the Yeti (whilst carrying over 300kg of camping equipment) and I've had them smoking heavily but not red hot like that! IMO what I'm currently running is the best setup I've had for pedal feel and ability but if you are pushing as hard as you obviously are I'd recommend either bigger disks (for better heat dissipation ability) or a change of driving style, making braking less on and off and smoother overall.

In terms of disk quality, I think there is a difference between the simpler ones that meet OE spec. (I dont like drilled or grooved disks as personally i think its a load of marketing hype - many disagree with me on this however) I can kill ECP supplied Pagid discs fairly quickly. I find the casting and material quality of Brembo front discs are the best for me but they are 40% more to buy. Another example of getting what you pay for I guess. I'm just about to do an overhaul on my brakes front and rear and am currently in the process of fitting the larger Cayman S ferodo DS2500 into my Porsche NQSBBK - giving an additional 20% increase in pad to disk surface - check out my project thread for info but this setup could suit your needs very well.

Also, I wouldn't underestimate the effect on good brake ducting and a more open style of wheel design.

Yeti_Man...I've updated post. Who knows standard spec of Skoda right...it is 288mm rotors with straight vanes design.

 

I'm currently thinking about Brembo products because they are simply the best right after custom made stuff.

 

Drilling of discs are legacy of poor friction materials of golden age. Today, drilling is for tuners only whose sole concern is look. F1 uses drilled disc because they have air flow through calliper and outlet through disc...but that is custom design ;-)

 

Grooving is an other story...primary function of grooves is cleaning brake pads. An other one is release of gases. It is not marketing !!! It is said that most effective shape of grooves is "J" hooks. Of course it has got downside - it eats brake pads ) But, hey, who cares it brakes.

 

Once again, post updated...info about grooves.

 

If you are working on upgrade...try grooved discs. You will be amazed, I guarantee !!! But be prepared for reduced lifetime. Once again, who cares...it brakes ;-) It must dust and eat disc, otherwise it doesn't brake.

 

With 300kg of camping equipment - it is perfectly balanced car. Did you burn rear discs as well?

 

 

I wanted to avoid large diameter of rotors but I see it is unavoidable. Since all decent race-street tires start at 18" there will be plenty of place for bigger brakes. I do lots of alpine roads driving and G-forces are unforgivable. I want to keep centrifugal forces as low as possible and unsprung weight as well.

 

 

I admit sole purpose of this test was to push as hard as possible and see what happen. I could brake 1sec earlier but hey there is about 50 turns. That's 50sec less of fun.

 

I didn't manage to drive Glockner Alpine road, I've seen only pictures. Glockner road is nothing compared to my testing facility ;-) You would burn brakes too.

 

 

First, I've to resolve issues with rims and rotors. Grooved disc from high-carbon material. Then I try it again and see what happen. I'll have to find compromise

Edited 5 April, 201511 yr by sniper29a

Yeti_man...I've forgotten. Of course grooves add little noise and vibrations as well. That's why family cars don't have grooved discs.

You can fit Seat Leon Cupra R Brembo's under 17" wheels, you have to be careful what wheels you select but they are out there.

 

 Tight fit but they do fit, good open spoke pattern to aid cooling and make your car look good  

 

 

 

I'm not new to grooved/drilled and just grooved disks - had them before and wouldn't go back to them. Plain disks suit me fine and as long as they are bedded in correctly dont give me any disadvantages in the real world. The fact they are quieter and last longer is an advantage for me. I'd say the first thing to do is to increase the disk size. You could go 312mm disks and ferodo ds2500's - best bang per buck combination based on standard calipers. After that its the NQSBBK - a lovely lightweight rigid caliper with fantastic pedal feel. If you aren't constrained by budget then there are plenty of BBKs available - probably the best ive personally run have been 345mm Tarox 6 pots previously - consistent stopping from three figure speeds with no real world downsides.

I'm not new to grooved/drilled and just grooved disks - had them before and wouldn't go back to them. Plain disks suit me fine and as long as they are bedded in correctly dont give me any disadvantages in the real world. The fact they are quieter and last longer is an advantage for me. I'd say the first thing to do is to increase the disk size. You could go 312mm disks and ferodo ds2500's - best bang per buck combination based on standard calipers. After that its the NQSBBK - a lovely lightweight rigid caliper with fantastic pedal feel. If you aren't constrained by budget then there are plenty of BBKs available - probably the best ive personally run have been 345mm Tarox 6 pots previously - consistent stopping from three figure speeds with no real world downsides.

Money doesn't bother me, only fun.

 

Floating callipers are rubbish and that would be first thing to fly into bin.

 

What I've seen so far, as a mechanical engineer and CNC machinist - brackets or various garage-made solutions seems to me more dangerous as OEM solution. Skoda Octavia WRC or kit car...custom hubs and arms. It's great to have bigger brakes, fix Brembo callipers - hubs are already weak, adding brackets for more effective brake systems is Russian roulette. I dare to say that 312mm with float OEM callipers are almost limit of hub, arm, suspension system.

 

I saw what does my driving style to a car with upgraded performance parts with OEM sizes. It won't last long on large diameters of brakes. I do not drive on smooth roads and I always drive fastest line...it's rally style driving, which requires more rigid construction as road cars.

 

 

Of course, I've seen many options how to upgrade...SuperPro arms, S3/TT hubs...still, it's just Skoda. I would rather buy Subaru instead of spending money on car with low potential ;-)

 

I just made a list of optimal upgrades and it would cost same amount of money as the worth of car 7000€ + 7000€...still it's just Skoda. No LSD, no AWD...family car ;-)

 

It is a project of transforming family car into something that handles well on long drives through Alps - with as low budget as possible.

Edited 5 April, 201511 yr by sniper29a

Money doesn't bother me, only fun.

 

+

 

It is a project of transforming family car into something that handles well on long drives through Alps - with as low budget as possible.

Well that's confused me. Check out DaveB's kit if quality is a worry for you. Great materials and superb machining. Fit and quality is the best I've tried on this platform

Well that's confused me. Check out DaveB's kit if quality is a worry for you. Great materials and superb machining. Fit and quality is the best I've tried on this platform

Already contacted this guy - it looks like he disappeared from the surface of Earth.

 

I see that http://vagbremtechnic.com has been at least updated to slide show of images :-D

As well as all his Vagbremtechnic stuff, Dave has a full time job (and is busy working on BBKs for VW Cup cars and God only knows what else).

 

I've been using EBC BSD High Carbon Blade discs on my car - EBC pads are truly sh*te, but I've found the discs to be very good. Quiet, have lasted a very long time with some HORRIBLE abuse and worked well with both Mintex M1155s and standard Pagid front pads. I'm kind of loathe to spend £180 on another set, but because I know they work I'm tempted. I'm also considering some ATE Powerdiscs.

As well as all his Vagbremtechnic stuff, Dave has a full time job (and is busy working on BBKs for VW Cup cars and God only knows what else).

 

I've been using EBC BSD High Carbon Blade discs on my car - EBC pads are truly sh*te, but I've found the discs to be very good. Quiet, have lasted a very long time with some HORRIBLE abuse and worked well with both Mintex M1155s and standard Pagid front pads. I'm kind of loathe to spend £180 on another set, but because I know they work I'm tempted. I'm also considering some ATE Powerdiscs.

I understand busy people but a half year is bad response time :-D

 

I used to have ATE Powerdisc on my pimped Fabia HR II, see spec here. It was well balanced car with exceptional grip. ATE is OEM VAG so there little difference. I suspect it is OEM rotor with milled grooves.

 

Fabia HR II was well balanced FRC (Family Racing Cup :-) car - brake system overheated very quickly. Furthermore, ceramic pads transferred most heat to callipers and brake fluid boiled very quickly. With Ferodo pads, rotors would burn I suspect or everything would burn and boil.

 

I doubt ATE Powerdisc would be improvement for you - it is beginning for rookie tuners who have poor braking skills. All I see is better performance than OEM - I guess due grooving and ceramic pads. Otherwise, not big difference.

I doubt ATE Powerdisc would be improvement for you - it is beginning for rookie tuners who have poor braking skills. All I see is better performance than OEM - I guess due grooving and ceramic pads. Otherwise, not big difference.

 

I don't really understand sorry, can you explain what you mean?

 

I bought my EBC discs not because they had fancy grooves or a great reputation (let's be honest, everybody thinks EBC stuff is dreadful and the pads certainly are - I hope Andy reads this as he went to great lengths on many forums explaining how good their pads were now, how EBC blues were easily a match for Pagid blues and so, based on the waffle I bought some blues. They lasted about 3 weeks before they fell to bits and after I emailed him, I got some BS response about how it's not their problem that the material fell apart - anyway, I digress), but because they were one of the few discs I could find that had a high carbon content. My belief was the the higher carbon content would make the disc more resistant to the heat cycling as I also killed a set of Pagid discs very quickly. I'm happy to say that the EBC discs (NOT THE PADS, THE PADS ARE SH*TE) have actually been very good. I've looked at Power Discs as these too are high carbon - the groove pattern is meaningless to me really, but they've got to be worth a punt for £70 per pair. I think ATE offer a 2-piece set up now, but they don't seem to do it in the 312 x 25mm 5x112 fitment.

I don't really understand sorry, can you explain what you mean?

 

I bought my EBC discs not because they had fancy grooves or a great reputation (let's be honest, everybody thinks EBC stuff is dreadful and the pads certainly are - I hope Andy reads this as he went to great lengths on many forums explaining how good their pads were now, how EBC blues were easily a match for Pagid blues and so, based on the waffle I bought some blues. They lasted about 3 weeks before they fell to bits and after I emailed him, I got some BS response about how it's not their problem that the material fell apart - anyway, I digress), but because they were one of the few discs I could find that had a high carbon content. My belief was the the higher carbon content would make the disc more resistant to the heat cycling as I also killed a set of Pagid discs very quickly. I'm happy to say that the EBC discs (NOT THE PADS, THE PADS ARE SH*TE) have actually been very good. I've looked at Power Discs as these too are high carbon - the groove pattern is meaningless to me really, but they've got to be worth a punt for £70 per pair. I think ATE offer a 2-piece set up now, but they don't seem to do it in the 312 x 25mm 5x112 fitment.

I meant that ATE PowerDisc is normal rotor with grooves because I had one and burnt it ;-) ATE product info doesn't specify whether it is high-carbon material or not.

 

Where did you find that ATE PowerDisc is high-carbon cast iron?

ATE product info doesn't specify whether it is high-carbon material or not.

Yes it does

 

Where did you find that ATE PowerDisc is high-carbon cast iron?

See above

Edited 12 April, 201511 yr by j0hn