How Will the money protect people as stated in the first post?

 

they could use it to combat the NO2 problem, but will probably just get eaten into central funds!

they could use it to combat the NO2 problem, but will probably just get eaten into central funds!

How? How would they use £90+ from each person to combat the problem?

Issue packs of Gas Masks to those that do not own a Diesel car,

or better still to just those that own no car of any kind.

 

But then the Money would be eaten up on Councillors expenses and the distribution and then the pollution would be even greater from the authorities vehicles as they would probably buy internal combustion engined vehicles.

Edited 16 June, 201510 yr by goneoffSKi

if i comes in in my area i may just take out a small claims action against the government .as they were the ones who were pushing diesel cars all those years back

I was talking to a bloke in North London when I was working down there. His solution to his highly polluting diesel transit not being let in when the LEZ came in was to buy a Ford Econoline with a nice big petrol V8 in. Sounded awesome, and of course it's good for the environment

 

The bit people forget is - In the words of Seasick Steve "I could drive my 57 Chevy everyday of this lifetime and the one I've had before, and still not make as much pollution as it does to make a brand new car".

 

How? How would they use £90+ from each person to combat the problem?

 

More cycle lanes and traffic calming probably, thereby slowing traffic further because cars that are crawling along for a greater amount of time pollute less right..? Errrr, don't think so.

It is the sooty particle and Nitrogen oxide that are the health hazard and petrol cars, even quite big engines, do not produce as much of these gases, yes they do produce CO2 but that is not as harmful as PMs and NO.

 

As to governments of the last 5,10, 20 years supporting diesels, how?    Excise tax is identical on diesel and petrol and diesel gets a 3% extra level in car tax so where is the tax incentive to buy diesel.  They cost more to but so government gets more VAT.  EU mainland diesel fuel is much cheaper but not here in the UK where it is about 4% more expensive that normal petrol.

 

If the council charges £100 for owning a diesel in a urban enviroment then they can invest that in water absorbtion of NO technology and nearly all such diesels, even EUR6 ones without SCRs/Ad Blu are bad compared to petrol for NO and those cars need to be converted to save the thousands from dying in UK and other major cities. http://www.dieselforum.org/about-clean-diesel/what-is-scr-

As to governments of the last 5,10, 20 years supporting diesels, how?    Excise tax is identical on diesel and petrol and diesel gets a 3% extra level in car tax so where is the tax incentive to buy diesel.  They cost more to but so government gets more VAT.  EU mainland diesel fuel is much cheaper but not here in the UK where it is about 4% more expensive that normal petrol.

 

I agree with you regarding emissions but the government slashing VED for diesels was a clear incentive to encourage people to change to newer diesel cars, even though it's a relatively small component of car running costs on general forums I frequently see people choosing the car almost entirely on VED and fuel economy.

 

John

Edited 16 June, 201510 yr by JohnMcL7

Well, next the pencil pushers will introduce bigger incentives than the £5,000 to get people to buy hybrid/electric cars, with cheap electricity charging points, then, once enough buyers have been suckered in, they will introduce extra charges for the chemicals used in the batteries, and the environment charge to use electricity, then whatever comes next will be the pencil pushers soup de jour, until enough gas bought into that and so the cycle will continue.........

How Will the money protect people as stated in the first post?

I suspect that the ultimate objective is to encourage people NOT to operate diesel vehicles.

 

Now,if Councils were to discourage people from driving Chelsea Tractors we would all heartily approve.

Is a £96 extra a year charge going to have them off changing the car even 2 years earlier than planned to change it.?

 

They might already be saving money by running a diesel if they leave the city with the vehicle and cover some miles.

Edited 16 June, 201510 yr by goneoffSKi

I agree with you regarding emissions but the government slashing VED for diesels was a clear incentive to encourage people to change to newer diesel cars, even though it's a relatively small component of car running costs on general forums I frequently see people choosing the car almost entirely on VED and fuel economy.

 

John

 

There was an encouragement to have car with a CO2 of less than 120 grams as that was the benchmark of a low emissions car.  So paying the nominal tens, rather than a hundred plus.

 

What needs to happen now is the VED charged as a mixture of CO2, NO and Total Hydro-Carbons emmisions and this would take the low tax away from diesel cars and make petrols more attractive so buyer/leasers are moved in to buying less polluting cars.   There are only a couple of diesels in the top one thousand lower polluting cars for NO for Euro5 and only a none in the top hundred of Euro6 cars and this appears to be the more dangerous pollutants ie NO, HCs and particles rather than CO2 so tax against those and invest the money to buy clean energy buses etc.

 

http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/downloads/default.aspx

 

What is incredible is that with diesels taking more miles to get warmed up their fuel consumption is often similar to a petrol in real terms even though the book figure looks better. Love my TCE Renault engine and the 1,2TSI and role on the VAG 3 cylinder turbo usage, 115 hp, 65 mpg.  

I suspect that the ultimate objective is to encourage people NOT to operate diesel vehicles.

 

Now,if Councils were to discourage people from driving Chelsea Tractors we would all heartily approve.

 

Or convert, if not already fitted to Ad Blu usage to bring down the NO to petrol car levels.

Part of the trouble, though, with encouraging more people into petrol powered cars, is that then the UK won't meet the CO2 emissions targets, as per mile petrol emits more than diesel. So they can't go too far in pushing people away from diesel or Brussels will get upset

Part of the trouble, though, with encouraging more people into petrol powered cars, is that then the UK won't meet the CO2 emissions targets, as per mile petrol emits more than diesel. So they can't go too far in pushing people away from diesel or Brussels will get upset

 

Most new petrols cars  are under 120 g/km I would have thought now, Dacia/Renault Logan is 116 gm/km and it is a car with a big boot and 65 mpg with Eco feature enabled.  Why risk DPF issues?

 

Of the big selling cars ie Fiat, Ford, GM, Renault (only top 5 company increasing it sales), VAG (with Audi, SEAT and VW at least) all produce mainstream petrol cars with less than 120 gm/km CO2.    

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-16/europe-car-sales-rise-at-slowest-pace-in-6-months-on-greek-woes

 

Renault was the only manufacturer among Europe’s five top auto sellers to post group sales growth in the region in May, with a 5.4 percent gain. That compares with a 15 percent jump in April for the French carmaker, which has been benefiting from demand for the Captur sport utility vehicle.......European deliveries by Volkswagen, the regional industry leader, fell 2 percent, with the Audi premium-car division posting a 5.9 percent drop.

You must know as you travel around where there are new car dealerships that there are unregistered and pre registered cars every place,

and Hire car depots, Airport Hire car Areas, long term parking full of cars not Sold to anyone but financed and sitting,

maybe not road legal, many new cars that will be sold as Used cars before a private owner is the Registered Keeper.

 

Those Sold Figures are fiddled figures, Manufacturers that own cars or lend cars until sold to the Dealerships,

Lease cars at very good rates to fleets, its about turning over money, its about producing exports and not paying taxes where ever possible.

 

Too many new cars are being built, and too much money is being lent, and the Pyramid Selling will collapse.

This is why the Volkswagen Group are going to split to 4 Divisions again.

 

Too big to fail, but they are an Industry built around Smoke & Mirrors.

 

What is incredible is that with diesels taking more miles to get warmed up their fuel consumption is often similar to a petrol in real terms even though the book figure looks better.

 

rubbish - in my experience my two diesels (three if you include the old Fabia) use SIGNIFICANTLY less fuel than my MX5 on the same short daily commute even in cold weather... that includes the 2.2 Honda against a 1.8 petrol...  on longer trips the difference gets greater still.  I'm not saying your wrong (well I am actually) just that you cannot make blanket statements like that.

The bit people forget is - In the words of Seasick Steve "I could drive my 57 Chevy everyday of this lifetime and the one I've had before, and still not make as much pollution as it does to make a brand new car".

 

 

More cycle lanes and traffic calming probably, thereby slowing traffic further because cars that are crawling along for a greater amount of time pollute less right..? Errrr, don't think so.

 

Bang on on both counts - the least polluting vehicle is one that spreads manufacturing pollution over as long a period as possible whilst still retaining it's original economiy as much as possible.

 

And congestion leads to high pollution levels so we should be allowing traffic to flow not preventing it from doing so.

 

(And by the way before anyone gets on their high horse and shouts me down - my day job includes doing studies of exactly this nature   :p )

Bang on on both counts - the least polluting vehicle is one that spreads manufacturing pollution over as long a period as possible whilst still retaining it's original economiy as much as possible.

 

And congestion leads to high pollution levels so we should be allowing traffic to flow not preventing it from doing so.

 

(And by the way before anyone gets on their high horse and shouts me down - my day job includes doing studies of exactly this nature   :p )

 

I'm not shouting you down but that solution doesn't really in any way resolve the issue nor is it remotely viable - even aside from pollution issues, cities cannot handle the level of traffic and congestion as it is, I don't agree entirely with demonising diesel cars as part of the main problem is there simply are too many cars on the road and more efforts should be made to cut them down.  

How? How would they use £90+ from each person to combat the problem?

 

photocatalytic street paint to absorb NOx emissions, could also plant more trees to catch particulate emissions. There are actually lots of ways to combat pollution, it's just whether they use this money to do so

<SNIP>

. . . we should be allowing traffic to flow not preventing it from doing so.

<SNIP>

 

Great idea, how would you suggest that is achieved . . . in Islington?

 

Private cars and and big, congested cities simply don't work.

Public Transport.

Parking and Storage out side cities so Park & Ride and keep all the pollution in the Countryside.

 

While building Pads for the Fracking Machinery

& doing the earth works for the New Nuclear Power Stations are being built around the Cities they can build Transport Hubs.

 

Actually why not build the New Garden Cities in the Countryside then you can have fresh air.?

Any additional charges will be enough to raise revenue but not so bad you'll want to switch cars immediately.

 

Guessing something like an extra £50 on diesel VED.

rubbish - in my experience my two diesels (three if you include the old Fabia) use SIGNIFICANTLY less fuel than my MX5 on the same short daily commute even in cold weather... that includes the 2.2 Honda against a 1.8 petrol...  on longer trips the difference gets greater still.  I'm not saying your wrong (well I am actually) just that you cannot make blanket statements like that.

 

I tihnk you will find that the larger discrepencies between actual and expected manufacturers figures are usually bigger on the diesels than the petrols, both WhatCar and HonestJohn do losts of data and in rela life, particualrly those who do short journeys ie less than 10 miles or rush hour crawling,  in diesels, apart for the additional DPF issues, report poor mpg relatively to expected.

 

The MX5, and I recently ran and sold a 2 litre one, very nice auto roof arrangment, is poor due to it being non-turbo, which usually improved mpg effeciency by between 10 and 20% so not a valid comparison compared to a turbo diesel.

 

More useful comparisons, IMO, are like the 105 hp TDI VAG, TDI to TSI or Renault-Nissan Cdi to TCE. A part from the petrol being much nicer to drive the petrols have lower emmision on the key pollutant ie particles and NO and owners report greater satisfaction with general running ownership I have read on this forum and others. 

Any additional charges will be enough to raise revenue but not so bad you'll want to switch cars immediately.

 

Guessing something like an extra £50 on diesel VED.

 

£10 a day for entering urban areas, ie like the London conjection charge to spread to all major cities.

No Hardship is it to many Business Users that have Expenses Covered by being employees and some that are sole traders and that have been Encouraged over to driving Diesels by the UK Government using the Taxation System is it.?

 

Some of those High Mileage Road Users are maybe driving the UK's Economy but maybe do not need to be driving and parking Dirty Diesels in Cities. Others are just getting a Family or Personal Vehicle because sometimes a vehicle is needed during their working week.

 

So maybe the Government can get Business / Commercial Travellers and those that need a Car as a Work Necessity out of Dirty Diesels 

and into Hybrids & EV's, and maybe limit the Size of Vehicles and Fuel Burnt if the are Trampers up the Highways & Byways as 

1 or 2 people in a car.

(Obviously EV only cars are no use for high mileage Daily Travellers, but in this day and age, do all Travellers need to visit every customer 

with Samples, thats very 1970's still on these days of clogged roads)

If their Business & Commercial Mileage is only within Cities with no Mileage out with, then limit the Tax Benefits only to those running City Cars with Small Economical Engines or EV Power, and limit the vehicles dimensions.

Edited 18 June, 201510 yr by goneoffSKi