Here's a situation that given I'm still a fairly new rider ponder about when on a ride, thought I'd ask what you all do. 

 

You're riding along an A/B road national limit single carriageway, after a bit you catch up with a train of cars. Each car is sat with a safe, normal sized gap between it and the car ahead but not much more than that. 

 

What do you do? Sit behind and wait until someone opens up a larger gap for you to pull into? Overtake and pull in forcing the car behind to slow a little and maintain the safe gap? Something else? 

 

 

I was 'taught' to make progress and if I didn't overtake when it was safe to I would be marked down and fail the course I was on.  Main word there being 'safe'.  If there is a gap then by all means go for it but do it in a gear where you can accelerate to get past and use the deceleration to slow you down without braking if at all possible.  It will mean that the driver you have just passed 'should' then drop back slightly to maintain their safe (2 second) gap.  Some will happily do that and some won't.  As long as you are positive about it without being aggressive you should be OK.

 

We spoke about this in another thread the other day where some will pull over to the left to let you through.  I only go past if and only if I feel it is safe to do so.  I always acknowledge the courtesy but I am also aware they may not be moving over for me but just wandering around in the road unaware of what they are doing or even that I am there.

 

It is a fine balance between confidence and skill against aggression and lack of realisation what can go wrong.  Put it this way Matt in the bus you will be aware where you can pass parked cars on your side of the road when there is oncoming traffic.  You know you have a safe gap and it is about encouraging oncoming traffic to move over if need be.  It isn't bullying but some may see it as that.  You will be quite confident about your ability to do it safely but you will also be aware that the action of others may affect what you do.  Take that with you on the bike and you wont' go far wrong.

It depends on the road and bike - if overtaking opportunities are few and far between I'd just wait at the back, but if I know I'm likely to be able to quickly hop along the queue I'll go for the gaps.

Exactly what Chris said.

The point I'd emphasise is doing it without having to show a brake light when moving back in after the overtake.

That is the true skill having the ability to shut off as you are level with the car knowing the excess speed will take you past the car and into the gap safely allowing you to match your speed without the need for brakes.  Quickly learned but it does require the correct gear for the job.

Just gotta have a plan B too.

Ive had it before where said driver will close the gap upon seeing you coming.

So its important to know where you can go, be it opening up and taking the next car, or whatever. But i always plenty of time for such things.

Sometimes if its a road i dont know well, and all the cars are leaving small gaps, i just wont bother tbh.

Sometimes theres 2 cars, which are effectively 1 for overtaking purposes, cos you wouldnt want to put yourself between em aha.

Quickly learned but it does require the correct gear for the job.

 

Or CVT transmission

Don't let Striple see this or that I have liked it! :no:

What do you do? Sit behind and wait until someone opens up a larger gap for you to pull into? Overtake and pull in forcing the car behind to slow a little and maintain the safe gap? Something else? 

 

If you have forced anyone to slow down just to maintain their safe stopping distance then there was insufficient room for you to pull into (that goes for ANY vehicle)

Can't argue with that Gizmo but if you stuck rigidly to that (as you should) there wouldn't be any room to overtake anywhere these days as hardly anyone observes the two second rule.  Sometimes on  a bike you have an opportunity that wouldn't be there in a car and to sit behind a great long line of cars doing 40mph in a NSL is very difficult. As long as you don't make it dangerous it can be done and it is the only way to make any sort of progress in these days.

 

Strictly speaking you are right though.

Can't argue with that Gizmo but if you stuck rigidly to that (as you should) there wouldn't be any room to overtake anywhere these days as hardly anyone observes the two second rule. Sometimes on a bike you have an opportunity that wouldn't be there in a car and to sit behind a great long line of cars doing 40mph in a NSL is very difficult. As long as you don't make it dangerous it can be done and it is the only way to make any sort of progress in these days.

Strictly speaking you are right though.

Most people dont mind anyway though do they.

They appreciate the fact that youll be gone again as soon as possible.

You just get the odd gorp lol

Cheers for the replies everyone. 

 

I have 2 thoughts pulling at me when I was sat behind the row of traffic yesterday. The first is as Gizmo says, you shouldnt force anyone to slow down, it feels rude if nothing else.

 

BUT on the flip side, when I'm following a car ahead, if I dont want to pass it then I'll sit with a decent gap ahead, a good few car lengths so if something comes up behind me, not just a bike but another car or anything and it wants to pass then it has room to overtake me and pull in safely. In my mind thats basic common courtesy yet seems to be very few people bothering with it. 

Cheers for the replies everyone.

I have 2 thoughts pulling at me when I was sat behind the row of traffic yesterday. The first is as Gizmo says, you shouldnt force anyone to slow down, it feels rude if nothing else.

BUT on the flip side, when I'm following a car ahead, if I dont want to pass it then I'll sit with a decent gap ahead, a good few car lengths so if something comes up behind me, not just a bike but another car or anything and it wants to pass then it has room to overtake me and pull in safely. In my mind thats basic common courtesy yet seems to be very few people bothering with it.

I do that too.

But not many bother.

For some reason they seem to think theyll get their faster if they follow closely lol.

Another one is cars just randomly pulling out to overtake when youre half way past them, or just sbout to pass. Had to brake out of a few of those too! Mirrors dont exist it seems.

From a cager's POV:-

1. How fast is this line going?
2. Are any of the drivers in it looking to "make progress" themselves?

If (1) < (ruling_speed_limit - 10)MPH then overtaking, breaking up the line if required is probably acceptable.

If (2), show a bit of extra care, since they will also be breaking up the line. Don't try and overtake someone who's also trying to make progress until you're certain that they've seen you and are happy to wait for you to overtake them.

From a cager's POV:-

• How fast is this line going?
• Are any of the drivers in it looking to "make progress" themselves?

If (1) < (ruling_speed_limit - 10)MPH then overtaking, breaking up the line if required is probably acceptable.

If (2), show a bit of extra care, since they will also be breaking up the line. Don't try and overtake someone who's also trying to make progress until you're certain that they've seen you and are happy to wait for you to overtake them.

Agreed

Number 2 can be tricky though. As some folk seem to have such an aggressive driving style. Some dont even given any signs theyre looking, they just wrench at the steering wheel at the last moment, no mirror checks, no indication and no give away road positioning prior to it.

Its in such a scenario you realise how slow most cars overtake

From a cager's POV:-

1. How fast is this line going?
2. Are any of the drivers in it looking to "make progress" themselves?

If (1) < (ruling_speed_limit - 10)MPH then overtaking, breaking up the line if required is probably acceptable.

If (2), show a bit of extra care, since they will also be breaking up the line. Don't try and overtake someone who's also trying to make progress until you're certain that they've seen you and are happy to wait for you to overtake them.

 

Normally about 40-50mph in 60mph roads, I'm happy to sit at or close to the limit in the correct conditions. 

 

I think I'm fairly good at spotting if someone is wanting to make progress, although I agree that as with everything on the road, sometimes people do unexpected things so this isnt always possible. If I had any suspicion someone wanted to get on then I'd sit back and wait every time.   

Normally about 40-50mph in 60mph roads, I'm happy to sit at or close to the limit in the correct conditions.

I think I'm fairly good at spotting if someone is wanting to make progress, although I agree that as with everything on the road, sometimes people do unexpected things so this isnt always possible. If I had any suspicion someone wanted to get on then I'd sit back and wait every time.

Yeah i tend to wait and then take them afterwards in a safe place if i want to.

I think the main point here is the safety of yourself and others.  As long as you keep your concentration level high and are aware of what is going on around you and the chances of someone doing something daft then you should be able to deal with whatever is thrown at you.

 

If you were on test and you caused another motorist to have to brake or take evasive action you would fail.  In the real world people do not keep to the 2 second rule and follow the vehicle in front closer than they should.  As long as you don't cause them to have to take evasive action including harsh braking I cannot see a problem with overtaking by car hopping. 

 

I cannot see the point of being stuck in a line of traffic where no one will overtake when we have the power and size to do it safely.

Thinking of this thread just.

Was looking to overtake an A3. He was doin about 50.

I wasnt going to go, because there was a brow of a hill coming up, so i was waiting.

So what does he do? Indicates left and starts slowing down until i pass.

Had to wait until he was doing about 20mph then scuttle past quickly.

Thinking how much of a silly place it was, he then pulls out again and carries on like normal as soon as i got past.

Wish he hadnt bothered!

I think the main point here is the safety of yourself and others.  As long as you keep your concentration level high and are aware of what is going on around you and the chances of someone doing something daft then you should be able to deal with whatever is thrown at you.

 

If you were on test and you caused another motorist to have to brake or take evasive action you would fail. 

That's not quite as black and white as it seems.

As an examiner it is drummed into you that It all relies on the phrase "it depends on the circumstances at the time"

Oddly, the reaction of some drivers can be deliberately disproportionate to the cause, so that has to be factored in as well.

I will have to accept what you say about the examiners.  On my bus driver training it was drummed into me that if I caused someone to brake I would fail.  Probably to ensure I didn't I imagine. 

 

Part of the test route in Scunthorpe was a very busy roundabout and on all of my training when I approached there I had caused someone to brake otherwise I would still be there now 6years later!  In the event the Examiner didn't take us on that part of the route and in discussion alter he stated that he thought it unfair to take a trainee there as it was impossible to pull out without causing someone to slow for you.

Agreed

Number 2 can be tricky though. As some folk seem to have such an aggressive driving style. Some dont even given any signs theyre looking, they just wrench at the steering wheel at the last moment, no mirror checks, no indication and no give away road positioning prior to it.

Its in such a scenario you realise how slow most cars overtake

 

 

Normally about 40-50mph in 60mph roads, I'm happy to sit at or close to the limit in the correct conditions. 

 

I think I'm fairly good at spotting if someone is wanting to make progress, although I agree that as with everything on the road, sometimes people do unexpected things so this isnt always possible. If I had any suspicion someone wanted to get on then I'd sit back and wait every time.   

I get your point; I was thinking of people who're riding the crown of the road, and (if safe) have made overtakes between you first sighting the line and you achieving a contact position with it as looking to make progress.

This is where anticipation and observation really helps. Read the road ahead, is there sufficient clear straight to take the entire group, position for maximum visibility and be ready to go - an appropriate gear so you have plenty of acceleration but not so low that you run out of revs. I was always taught to be ready and pull a last second abort.

If you don't have the power to gobble up the entire convoy or its just too long break it down into safe bite sized chunks, wait if needs be. Generally cage drivers are more considerate to well mannered skillfully ridden bikes.

Certainly don't go hopping one by one causing everyone to brake. Poor technique.

If all else fails, turn off and try a different route.

One by one may well be poor technique but at times it is the only way.  Would not suggest you do it all the time and the way you suggest is certainly my favoured option but when all else fails....

The problem is with taking the entire group, you either need a really long straight, or to gun it past.

The problem with gunning past is youre going so bloody fast by the time you get half way, youve no chance of braking if a car suddenly pulls out from the middle of the row unexpectedly. Doesnt take a moment to double their spred on a half powerful bike does it