We all know that 4wd will give better traction than 2wd in snow....but which will give better traction from a standing start on a snow covered incline; front engined, front wheel drive or front engined, rear wheel drive and why?

Front engined front wheel drive. The weight of the engine over the wheels ensures the best traction.

Front engined front wheel drive. The weight of the engine over the wheels ensures the best traction.

What he said ........ weight over the driven wheels is alway s the way to go on real slippy surfaces eg front engine / wheel drive or rear engine / wheel drive ( eg Porsche, old Beetle etc )

Be wary of 4wd in snow though - loads of people assume that 4wd vehicles can be driven as normal in snow etc - wrong - they will slide on corners like anything else and this is the time of year to find 4wd in ditches / hedges etc

practice driving in snow and get to feel how your car handles , and make it skid (on a deserted car park, obviously ) - that way you dont get caught out and panic when it happens for real

SNOW - WOOOOHOOOO !!!!!

except we aint had any yet oop 'ere :(

Be wary of 4wd in snow though - loads of people assume that 4wd vehicles can be driven as normal in snow etc - wrong - they will slide on corners like anything else and this is the time of year to find 4wd in ditches / hedges etc

People don't realise that once in a slide many 4x4's behave exactly like RWD cars which is a bit of a shock to the system if you've just upgraded from a FWD car.

I agree. I spent many a happy Sunday morning towing Army Officers Audi Quattros out of ditches when I was in the Army in Germany in the 80's!

Rear engined RWD. My Beetle was brilliant at going up snow-covered hills in N Ireland.

Be wary of 4wd in snow though - loads of people assume that 4wd vehicles can be driven as normal in snow etc - wrong - they will slide on corners like anything else and this is the time of year to find 4wd in ditches / hedges etc

Exactly, 4 x no grip is still no grip Different kettle of fish if you have all terrain/mud tyres which reduce the tyre foot print in contact with the road and help improve grip

Chris

I remember in my youth my Dad found that his FWD, front-engined car went up snowy hills in reverse which it wouldn't go up forwards.

(Which I guess is most similar to the rear-engined RWD layout already mentioned)

I remember in my youth my Dad found that his FWD' date=' front-engined car went up snowy hills in reverse which it wouldn't go up forwards.

(Which I guess is most similar to the rear-engined RWD layout already mentioned)[/quote']

Similar approach to the beetle above with a bit of help from the gearing. Works well for RWD cars in particular.

Exactly' date=' 4 x no grip is still no grip Different kettle of fish if you have all terrain/mud tyres which reduce the tyre foot print in contact with the road and help improve grip

Chris[/quote']

Its not so much JUST the reduced footprint ( although that helps as the weight of the car is spread over a smaller area ), its also the chunky tread pattern which 'bites' into the snow / mud ... helped by the reduced footprint of the tyre as mentioned, ...

M & S tyres however also have reduced grip when there is no snow, which can catch you out on just wet or dry tarmac , as the tread blocks squirm and move about .... plus you have a reduced footprint ..........

Complicated things, tyres .............

That's why there are such things as summer / winter tyres etc. IIRC in several Scandinavian countries (not that there are all that many ) you need to fit winter tyres to be legal on the road. Hopefully someone who actually lives there & posts on this site could confirm/deny that though

It does make me laugh though how people around this area appear to be unable to cope with a little cold snap, let alone a slippery road surface. OMG it's got a little snow. Slightly different when you're in an area where you have a mountain, ungritted roads, etc. Best thing to do - just drive within ability, and expect ice to be under bridges etc, keeping good distance, and if you get a tailgating muppet, just pull over. Always another day

M & S tyres however also have reduced [/i']grip when there is no snow, which can catch you out on just wet or dry tarmac , as the tread blocks squirm and move about .... plus you have a reduced footprint ..........

That's very true and having no driver aids really helped to feel how the car behaved and understand how to correct it. It was also funny to watch tailgaters drop back significantly when they hit the standing water you just ploughed through Aqua-planing? What aqua-planing

Chris

IIRC in several Scandinavian countries (not that there are all that many ) you need to fit winter tyres to be legal on the road. Hopefully someone who actually lives there & posts on this site could confirm/deny that though

Worked with a Finnish guy who thought the way we carried on here when the snow came was laughable. They have to have studded tyres during the winter months...

Rob.

We all know that 4wd will give better traction than 2wd in snow....

Not strictly true.

A 2wd car with winter tyres will have much better traction than a 4wd on summer (read normal) tyres.

Its not so much JUST the reduced footprint ( although that helps as the weight of the car is spread over a smaller area )' date=' its also the chunky tread pattern which 'bites' into the snow / mud ... helped by the reduced footprint of the tyre as mentioned, ...

M & S tyres however also have [i']reduced [/i]grip when there is no snow, which can catch you out on just wet or dry tarmac , as the tread blocks squirm and move about .... plus you have a reduced footprint ..........

Complicated things, tyres .............

BIGGEST problem modern car have in the snow is the width of the tyres - most are totally useless. M&S tread is great in the snow, narrow m&s are even better.

I remember in my youth my Dad found that his FWD' date=' front-engined car went up snowy hills in reverse which it wouldn't go up forwards.

(Which I guess is most similar to the rear-engined RWD layout already mentioned)[/quote']

This is an interesting point. David's reply would seem to indicate that it is better for a front engined, front wheel drive car to push itself up a snowy incline (effectively making it rear wheel drive, rear engined) rather than pull itself up the same incline (front wheel drive, front engined), all other things being equal.

Or is it simple that when on an incline the centre of gravity shifts sligthly to the down hill side of the car. This would increase weight and traction to the down hill pair of wheels, therefore favouring a front engined, front wheel drive car being reversed up hill rather than going up forwards:eek:

I guess this could be proved if a rear engined car with rear wheel drive was driven up an incline forwards and in reverse to see which had greater traction.

This is an interesting point. David's reply would seem to indicate that it is better for a front engined' date=' front wheel drive car to push itself up a snowy incline (effectively making it rear wheel drive, rear engined) rather than pull itself up the same incline (front wheel drive, front engined), all other things being equal.

Or is it simple that when on an incline the centre of gravity shifts sligthly to the down hill side of the car. This would increase weight and traction to the down hill pair of wheels, therefore favouring a front engined, front wheel drive car being reversed up hill rather than going up forwards:eek:

I guess this could be proved if a rear engined car with rear wheel drive was driven up an incline forwards and in reverse to see which had greater traction.[/quote']

Have used the FWD car and gone backwards up a slope trick many times....always works...... but back in the old days of escort mk 1/2 estates, rear wheel drive, and if you put the necessary 6 concrete blocks in the back it would go almost anywhere only thing that stopped me was a 20foot long 3 foot deep snowdrift ........climb out of side window (door wouldn't open) and take three hours to dig it out.....what fun

and the tyres where 155x13 that helps

Skinny tyres is the way to go. Look at the WRC's when they do a snow rally.

This is an interesting point. David's reply would seem to indicate that it is better for a front engined' date=' front wheel drive car to push itself up a snowy incline (effectively making it rear wheel drive, rear engined) rather than pull itself up the same incline (front wheel drive, front engined), all other things being equal.

[/quote']

Isn't that more to do with reverse being a lower gear than first?

Isn't that more to do with reverse being a lower gear than first?

Yes, and it applies whether the car is FWD or RWD. It can be a disadvantage though because at least when you use 1st gear you can go into 2nd and then 3rd gear to keep the speed up while you move up a hill. Changing up also reduces the torque at a given speed so when the wheels start slipping you can change up to regain traction.

Skinny tyres is the way to go. Look at the WRC's when they do a snow rally.

The nicest car I had for driving in snow was a 1 litre Vauxhall Nova. 45bhp (count em!) and 145 section tyres. Plenty of feel through the steering, decent grip and snail like acceleration. It was fun.

Worst I've had was a Pug 306DT. Wide tyres, power steering and peaky TD torque made it a handful. It didn't have ABS or traction control either.

I'm dreading icy/snowy weather in the Fabia, but at least it's got ASR unlike the Pug. The 205 section road rollers can't be good in snow...

hmmmm 1.2 12v with only ABS and 205/45/R16s good idea to go back to steelies?!

The nicest car I had for driving in snow was a 1 litre Vauxhall Nova. 45bhp (count em!) and 145 section tyres. Plenty of feel through the steering' date=' decent grip and snail like acceleration. It was fun.

[/quote']

My 1.0 litre 45bhp panda with 135/13 tyres was excellent to drive in the snow.

I remember taking it out for a play on snow covered car parks and learning how to make it handle (and how to make it spin round in circles by accident) safely.

Driving around a very snowy and ungritted Marborough on Friday was ever so slightly hairy... ABS takes away all braking and the ASR takes away all engine power.

The wide tyres and monstrous torque are not benefits when its slippery out. :thumbdwn:

Perhaps there is a "turbo fuse" that could be pulled when its nasty out?

It is recommended to switch off the traction control in the snow IIRC

I've driven mine in snow a little, it's not too bad as long as you drive very smoothly and treat the throttle like there's an egg under it The wide tyres are far from ideal though, half the width would help a lot.