Well in my experience it was as much about who taught one hiw to drive...

Some instructors were teaching indicate left going left. indicate right if going straigt then left after you pass the "left" exit..

So it really did make for utterly confused drivers...

^ so they don't teach mirror signal manoeuvre at every conceivable point anymore then ? 

You need to remember that the 'signal' bit breaks down into three parts.....

 

1 - Do I need to signal?

2 - What signal do I need?

3 - When do I need to give it?

 

So MSM doesn't necessarily lead to a signal.

I was taught the same as devonutopia says - indicate left after passing the last exit prior to your intended route.

Edit : typos.

Same, if going straight or right then don't indicate until you pass the exit before, if going right indicate right then left after the exit before.

Back in the day, I was taught the following regarding roundabouts:-

1. WHen taking the first exit, signal left on approach, and continue signalling left until you have exited.
2. When taking the second exit (from any allowable lane), do not signal on approach, do not signal on the roundabout until you are passing the first exit, then signal left until you have exited.
3. When taking the third or any subsequent exit, signal right on approach, continue signalling on the roundabout until you are passing the exit before the one you require, then signal left until you have exited.

Subsequent advanced training modifies this by saying "there is no need to signal if you can see that no other road user will be in a position to benefit from your signal before you complete the manoeuvre". There is further discussion of this point as it relates to restricted sight lines in the "Racing and Advanced Driving" subforum.

Back in the day, I was taught the following regarding roundabouts:-

1. WHen taking the first exit, signal left on approach, and continue signalling left until you have exited.
2. When taking the second exit (from any allowable lane), do not signal on approach, do not signal on the roundabout until you are passing the first exit, then signal left until you have exited.
3. When taking the third or any subsequent exit, signal right on approach, continue signalling on the roundabout until you are passing the exit before the one you require, then signal left until you have exited.

Subsequent advanced training modifies this by saying "there is no need to signal if you can see that no other road user will be in a position to benefit from your signal before you complete the manoeuvre". There is further discussion of this point as it relates to restricted sight lines in the "Racing and Advanced Driving" subforum.

 

I understand that this and know that it is the formal, official advice. However, there is no sensible means for anyone to determine whether you are taking the 2nd exit or just can't be bothered to signal :(

 

As to not signalling when nobody is about - surely it makes more sense to ALWAYS signal, regardless of whether or not anyone might benefit from your signal? It can do no harm and you may have failed to notice someone - e.g. a pedestrian or cyclist. You know it makes sense

I refer you to my post above which addresses both of your points.

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/379699-advanced-driving-technique-indcating/#entry4450609

 

 

As to not signalling when nobody is about - surely it makes more sense to ALWAYS signal, regardless of whether or not anyone might benefit from your signal? It can do no harm and you may have failed to notice someone - e.g. a pedestrian or cyclist. You know it makes sense

 

No that's not good practice. It just shows you've not bothered to look properly. You won't have missed anyone if you have. 

My rule of thumb, through driver training, is if there are no others on the road who would expect you to indicate or benefit from the indication then don't......this is an efficiency thing but also prevents you going on auto pilot like we all do from time to time.

No that's not good practice. It just shows you've not bothered to look properly. You won't have missed anyone if you have. 

 

How nice it would be if people not signalling was never a result of not bothering and where everyone always looked properly and never failed to notice things of significance - unfortunately not all of the UK lives in your perfect error free alternative reality.

 

ACK/NAK

I agree Utopia doesn't exist and certainly not on the roads these days.  I cannot agree though with those of us who have been taught correctly and who still do it correctly should have to change our ways because some don't know how to do it or are too lazy to do it.

 

There are many threads about the lack of signals (very often aimed at BMW or Audi drivers).  Sometimes though it is more the problem that the person who is complaining doesn't understand that there isn't a need to indicate all the time.  Correct use of indicators will inform those around what the driver intends to do.  Incorrect use of them will only confuse. 

 

Car makers have made this worse in recent times with the indicator stalk that will just give 3 flashes if you flick it rather than turn it on properly.  So some will rely on those three flashes to show others what they are doing.  An indicator not only needs to be used in the correct place but timing is essential as well to ensure it is not misleading.  That includes leaving it on for sufficient time for others to have time to see it and react accordingly and the 3 flashes will not always give that.

 

One of the key elements of Advanced Driving is to observe what is happening around you and to plan and react accordingly.  So using indicators out of habit rather than thinking do I need to indicate or not does not need the driver to use observation as much and hence can cause them to become lazy.  Concentration when driving should be on the driving and all that entails and Advanced techniques teach you to do that in all aspects including choosing when an indicator is needed by others and when it isn't.

 

I understand what you are saying about roundabouts and they are a very good example of how people get it wrong but as I said before (twice) to make those that have been taught correctly and are doing it correctly to change and do it wrong cannot be a solution.  As others have said lane discipline on roundabouts is another major headache.  How many times have you been cut up by someone straddling two lanes?  If people kept to the correct lane then everyone should know where they are intending to go when the go straight on.  Of course that would be assisted by Local Highways Departments marking the roads clearly as well.

 

Again repeating what I said in a previous post.  Indicate if needed, indicate if not needed if you like (certainly in large vehicles because you cannot see behind you) but just make sure whichever you choose to do it properly and don't give signals that are misleading.  That also includes cancelling indicators at the earliest opportunity as well.  We have just had a new mini roundabout put in locally and people are coming off that indicating left but then leaving the indicator to self cancel.  Problem being that immediately after the roundabout there is a road to the left and the cars look like they are indicating to turn down there but are driving straight on into the car that has just started to pull out.  Both parties are wrong but the one indicating has caused the problem because they are letting the car decide what to do instead of using their brain.

Only indicate when moving into a right hand lane to over take on a motorway/dual carriage way, no need to indicate when returning to a left lane. And only indicate when there is someone to benefit from it. IR no one waiting to enter a round about, there's no need to indicate to leave it.

The whole idea of not indicating when entering a roundabout with the intention of leaving at 12 o'clock seems insane to me.

 

How on earth does one distinguish between someone going straight ahead and someone who can't be asked to indicate? This is especially true in the case of "large" roundabouts - e.g. the junction between the A66 and the A591 just North of Keswick.

If you are going straight ahead, why would you indicate on approach / entry? If you signal left, the chances are that someone at the next entrance will start moving forward, as you just told them you are going to the first exit. If you signal right, the people at the next entry may start moving forward on the expectation that you are turning right, while people waiting to enter the roundabout at the road you are entering will be delayed on the expectation you are turning right. Read the highway code, it's really simple.

<SNIP> I cannot agree though with those of us who have been taught correctly and who still do it correctly should have to change our ways because some don't know how to do it or are too lazy to do it. <SNIP>.

My suggestion is that the basis on which you have been trained is illogical, not that you aren't correctly following orders

 

 

<SNIP>

Correct use of indicators will inform those around what the driver intends to do.  Incorrect use of them will only confuse. 

<SNIP>.

That is exactly the problem - someone's failure to use their indicators doesn't exactly make their intention clear, does it?

My suggestion is that the basis on which you have been trained is illogical, not that you aren't correctly following orders

 

 

That is exactly the problem - someone's failure to use their indicators doesn't exactly make their intention clear, does it?

Sorry Spoc!  I see what you are saying but just don't agree with it.  Thing is we could discuss bad driving all day and not change a thing because of course everyone in their own mind is  a brilliant driver.

Another point I hadn't thought to put - I generally don't indicate when overtaking a road captain/38mph'er unless there's something behind me. I generally find indicating an intent to overtake them just makes them try to have a race with you to prove who's the safer driver.

Another point I hadn't thought to put - I generally don't indicate when overtaking a road captain/38mph'er unless there's something behind me. I generally find indicating an intent to overtake them just makes them try to have a race with you to prove who's the safer driver.

I follow your logic, but it is a situation in which in-sewer-ers and Police will probably ask whether or not you signalled and may attempt to lay blame and/or charges in your direction if you didn't.

 

Personally, if I'm overtaking a road captain and not being followed close I'll be down 2 gears and accelerating before signalling...

Personally unless there is someone else close behind me who is likely to overtake I don't signal I just get on with it.  They don't need to know I am going to overtake and like as not will not see me indicate anyway.  Of course with the rider that you NEVER ever overtake someone who has the opportunity to turn right across your path be it into a road, drive field or whatever.

 

When I was on one of my Police driving courses that point was hammered home by our Instructor.  When he took his Instructor's course one of his fellow pupils had all but passed barring the final drive (test).  At some point you would always be instructed to 'make progress' which he did quite safely right up to the point where he overtook a hearse that turned right into the Crem across his path spilling ALL the occupants out of the hearse.  Needless to say he failed.

 

This is 'one' of the biggest causes of motorcycle accidents and something I used to ram home to my pupils when they were on Advanced courses.

How nice it would be if people not signalling was never a result of not bothering and where everyone always looked properly and never failed to notice things of significance - unfortunately not all of the UK lives in your perfect error free alternative reality.

 

ACK/NAK

 

Of course, if you're driving properly it would be. Nobody is immune from errors but mistakes through poor observation are.

I came accross a curious procedure when driving abroad.  If a car was waiting to turn off a main road, across the oncoming traffic, it would have it's indicators on.  A second car, approaching from behind, would also indicate, not because he wanted to turn, but to pass on the signal from the first car.  Each car joining the queue would indicate.   When the first car performed his manourvre, everone else would stop signalling, and carry straight on.

Personally unless there is someone else close behind me who is likely to overtake I don't signal I just get on with it.  They don't need to know I am going to overtake and like as not will not see me indicate anyway.  Of course with the rider that you NEVER ever overtake someone who has the opportunity to turn right across your path be it into a road, drive field or whatever.

 

How do you determine that? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that you're being followed by a van, and I'm catching all 3 of you, having just reached a distant contact as an overtake opens, so I commence my overtake (with speed already on and now accelerating) starting past the van just as you move out?

 

I'd submit that your signal would have given me a little more warning, so that I could lift rather than being forced to brake to lose speed.

Edited 27 November, 201510 yr by KenONeill

Easy Ken whenever there is a doubt there is no doubt. I don't do anything on the road unless I am certain. I am not talking about if I can't see what is behind me due to my view being obstructed. If I did that I could quite easily miss a fast bike.

If I am overtaking I will assess the situation fully and once I have I get on with it and don't bother faffing around with signals for nobody but the instead concentrate on the job in hand.

<SNIP> I don't do anything on the road unless I am certain. <SNIP>.

I suspect that most drivers, prior to an accident are "certain" that their manoeuvre is perfectly safe. People's arrogant faith in their powers of observation and superior driving skills is probably a major contributory factor in many accidents.

 

When I learned to drive, my instructor's two favourite sayings were "Expect the unexpected" and "Always assume every other driver is an idiot". Riding a motorbike has only served to confirm the truth of these maxims

 

ACK/NAK

That is exactly the problem - someone's failure to use their indicators doesn't exactly make their intention clear, does it?

The question remains, is it better to not use your signal on entry to the roundabout when going straight ahead, or is it better to use an incorrect / misleading signal?

The question remains, is it better to not use your signal on entry to the roundabout when going straight ahead, or is it better to use an incorrect / misleading signal?

I say apply the guideline as it should be. If everyone did, then there would be no issue. But, I rather seeing no signal than a wrong one.

the argument of "misread signals" meaning we should all use wrong signals is beyond flawed!

If unsure sit and wait the extra 3seconds to see where they actually go.

I suspect that most drivers, prior to an accident are "certain" that their manoeuvre is perfectly safe. People's arrogant faith in their powers of observation and superior driving skills is probably a major contributory factor in many accidents.

 

When I learned to drive, my instructor's two favourite sayings were "Expect the unexpected" and "Always assume every other driver is an idiot". Riding a motorbike has only served to confirm the truth of these maxims

 

ACK/NAK

The vast majority of drivers tend to work reactively most of the time. A good advanced driver will have taken the necessary observations to assess the potential hazards in the situation, will have taken the trouble to look at what could go wrong and will only overtake of it is actually safe. The average driver will have identified a possible gap and won't consider any of the potential hazards that could take away the road space they intended to use. Often, they won't even have identified the space they are overtaking into.

The advanced driver, well the decent one, will have been trained to assess situations properly, reason them through and act accordingly. Although arrogance plays a big part in many acts of poor driving, stupidity, impatience, ignorance and a lack of common sense all play their part too.

With regard to signal / no signal, there is no hard and fast rule. Each signal decision has to be taken on the basis of the situation.