Exactly, in the words of the prophet,  stop-cocks are not a device fitted for the 21st century - but,  then again,  that's like most of the predominant building technology used at the residential level.

 

I think my first stop will be getting a suitable mains key for the external stop-**** and checking that is sufficiently open. From what I understand, closing down any- stop -**** impacts the rate of flow rather than water-pressure (Old plumbers' trick). That, + a new conventional fill pipe,  may cure the problem in short order.

 

Not withstanding that,  the under sink main stop **** turns freely, so, the suspicion then falls on  the two subsidiary stop-cocks for the washing machine. The SC for the hot supply is turning freely, but I had to "Unjam" the cold-supply one, although once it was unjammed, in turned freely.

 

They probably all need renewing. So a mains key + a freezer pack + parts will do that.

 

The other possibility is that there is a leak in the cold supply, between the external stop-**** and the house. Doubtful, as its probably a plastic pipe (1980s house).

 

 

Nick

 

 

I had a stop-cocks (have to add the "s" or it gets censored), that turned freely, it didnt do anything though, because the mechanism inside had snapped off.

 

Which reminds me, I havent done my annual on/off for the year on the replacement for the above - and I may have forgotten last years, as we were in China for half the winter.

I think the under sink Cold SC is OK, whlist now turning freely, I can still feel some resistance when turning it. Long-tern, both these need replacing as they don't appear to have the full range of turn on the handle. So that's a freezer-pack from Screwfix, 2 x pegler HQ SCs and a couple of hours of my time.

 

Cold water supply at the washing machine tap is still OK, although, the flow rate is low - 3 litres a minute. Could be the external mains SC, could simply be the way the Affinity is now piping the water.If  I'm able to narrow it down to the Water Company, then missives will fly !

 

Fault finally revealed itself in the water-stop cold supply hose. Overnight, the sponge expanded massively (After contact with water inside the housing) and this moved the red plastic housing so that it showed through the transparent warning window on the side of the housing. So, new standard hose ordered @ £4 rather than the £48 AEG wanted for the water-stop hose for my model. And yet, on the same website, they were offering what looked like exactly the same pattern of water-stop hose as used on my washing machine, but for £20 odd ?  Why the 100% difference in prices ? But, when queried,  the compatibility database on the AEG web site said that hose wouldn't fit my model . . . Yeah !

 

The prices they are charging for these water-stop hoses is an absolute rip-off when you actually disassemble the buggers and examine the few extra  components there are in side compared with a normal hose (2x magnets, one encased and the other  located in a movable plastic housing, a steel capping tablet for the exposed end of the moving magnet,  the red plastic housing, a 1.5cm square piece of natural sponge and a lightweight conical coil spring, oh and an outer corrugated plastic tube). Parts cost, no more than £5 retail !  Obviously, the prices are designed to fit what AEG's marketeers  believe the target market  will bear. RIP-OFF !

 

 

Nick

Edited 21 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

It is reset with the yellow lever if it has triggered.

I think the under sink Cold SC is OK, whlist now turning freely, I can still feel some resistance when turning it. Long-tern, both these need replacing as they don't appear to have the full range of turn on the handle. So that's a freezer-pack from Screwfix, 2 x pegler HQ SCs and a couple of hours of my time.

 

Cold water supply at the washing machine tap is still OK, although, the flow rate is low - 3 litres a minute. Could be the external mains SC, could simply be the way the Affinity is now piping the water.If  I'm able to narrow it down to the Water Company, then missives will fly !

 

Fault finally revealed itself in the water-stop cold supply hose. Overnight, the sponge expanded massively (After contact with water inside the housing) and this moved the red plastic housing so that it showed through the transparent warning window on the side of the housing. So, new standard hose ordered @ £4 rather than the £48 AEG wanted for the water-stop hose for my model. And yet, on the same website, they were offering what looked like exactly the same pattern of water-stop hose as used on my washing machine, but for £20 odd ?  Why the 100% difference in prices ? But, when queried,  the compatibility database on the AEG web site said that hose wouldn't fit my model . . . Yeah !

 

The prices they are charging for these water-stop hoses is an absolute rip-off when you actually disassemble the buggers and examine the few extra  components there are in side compared with a normal hose (2x magnets, one encased and the other  located in a movable plastic housing, a steel capping tablet for the exposed end of the moving magnet,  the red plastic housing, a 1.5cm square piece of natural sponge and a lightweight conical coil spring, oh and an outer corrugated plastic tube). Parts cost, no more than £5 retail !  Obviously, the prices are designed to fit what AEG's marketeers  believe the target market  will bear. RIP-OFF !

 

 

Nick

 

Same part - different part number, a common way of making people pay through the nose. I used to have this with Renault, another reason to never buy a Renault car, or car made using Renault parts.

 

Possibly down to selling the different part numbers in different countries for exactly the same machine.

 

Same as the way I bought a new Router and Mobile phone from Germany for significantly less that the UK price - same official European distributor, different prices (1 Euro = £1, same as $1 = £1 for US stuff)

There's more ways of stuffing an elephant than filling its rectum with cream buns !

 

 - I am aware of how earlier Renaults were optimised for the fitting of parts on the  production line rather than servicing, from Renault 4 onwards !

 

But we want solutions, not more problems !

 

Anyway, I have just spent a productive 20 minutes ripping the guts out of the non-functioning flood-control fill-pipe and turning in into an ordinary fill pipe, but with a double skin ! And now it lets water through ! Hoorah !- I did try substituting the hot fill lead for the Bosch dishwasher, but the seal on the back of the machine just wouldn't seal 'cause AEG have used a non-standard shallow connector with an L-shaped rubber inside.

 

I wasn't expecting this to cure the E10 error on the washer as the mains pressure, which, from my measurements (Taken at the washer tap) had an average, over the last two days, of 2.5 Bar , 3 litres a minute, had dropped to 1.5 Bar and 1.5 litres a minute by 16.00 today - obviously  all the mums and kids are in doors using the washing machines and having baths and showers ! Nevertheless, I connected it to the washer, stuck it on rinse, and whilst it filled, slowly, it still threw out an  E10 error at 10 minutes into the rinse fill.

 

The best recorded water pressure I have had is 3 bar at 12 midnight. Pro temp, I may start doing the washing at night. That's going to fill the neighbours with brotherly love.

 

I think this is a Water Supply Company problem.

 

According to the Guarenteed Supply Standards set by OFWAT, the minimum specification for the supply should be 1 bar pressure (i.e. 10 metres head of water) and 9 litres a minute measured at the external SC in the front of the property. Yep, 9 litres a minute !.

 

Even assuming they were supplying  9 litres a minute at the external SC s, I don't think that would degrade into 1.5-3 litres a minute after travelling 10 metres in a 25mm plastic pipe from the external SC into the kitchen.

 

So next stop is to  report on the water company's web-site.

 

Apparently, if it can be proved that the water company has failed to supply to the OFWAT standard on two successive occasions in a month, then the consumer gets a £25 payment. I suppose that's not much use if you can't perform one of the basic functions of civilised life. I suppose I could always take the washing down to the local brook and start walloping it with a stone. Trouble is round here, a crowd may gather, as  it may bring back memories of a former  home life once removed.

 

Next time I get the annual water bill statement in, I will take great delight in completing the charity request for provision of water supplies in Third World countries by stating that my donation is conditional subject to them fixing my supply first.

 

 

Nick

Edited 22 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

It is reset with the yellow lever if it has triggered.

No.  I've established that the  yellow lever disengages the ratchet in the housing from the nozzle which fits the tap, so that you can unscrew the hose from the water tap without lashing yourself to death with the hose i.e. Hose and housing stay put whilst the nozzle rotates clockwise.

 

Having, now fully disassembled the flood-stop device, including 5 separate pieces in the nozzle as well as the 5 pieces in the housing below the nozzle, I think the flood-stop control is in fact the natural sponge. When it gets wet it appears to triple if not quadruple in size and unfurl pushing the magnets apart, reducing the magnet repulsive force and allowing the magnet encased in a carrier/ stopper in the nozzle drain to fall (Or, more correctl y, to be pushed by  incoming water pressure into the drain orifuce, sealing it and stopping the incoming water flow. Trouble appeared to be that even when the magnet below was in the "Open" position i.e at closest approach to the magnet in the stopper and exercising full repulsive force, the stopper was stuck and not moving upward. So water wasn't flowing even when it was supposed to.

 

Also, it appears that once the sponge has been wetted and unfurled, it doesn't subsequently retract when dry. So it is a one-off use and this oarticular flood-stop hose cannot be re-used. Bye-bye £ 43.

 

Interesting to note that in the states, the Aqua-stop device available there can be reset mechanically by rotating a switch.

 

Anyway, I've removed all the flood-stop components out of the nozzle and housing (And kept them for refurbishment in slower time). Meantime, I can use the hose as if it were a standard hose.

 

I've put in a report to the water company and I understand they'll be contacting me within 5 days to arrange an appointment to measure the water pressure/flow at the external SC.

 

Nick

Meantime, keep tabs on when flow/pressure are at lowest .I'd expect them to fir a pressure/flow rate recorder ,and use the results to try and flannel their way out of their responsibilities. With six other houses on a common supply, I had a similar response- Not our problem, everything is OK at our last point of supply. You need a separate supply, for which landlord/property owner pays ,and only Water Authority approved folks can do .

There's more ways of stuffing an elephant than filling its rectum with cream buns !

 

 - I am aware of how earlier Renaults were optimised for the fitting of parts on the  production line rather than servicing, from Renault 4 onwards !

 

But we want solutions, not more problems !

 

Anyway, I have just spent a productive 20 minutes ripping the guts out of the non-functioning flood-control fill-pipe and turning in into an ordinary fill pipe, but with a double skin ! And now it lets water through ! Hoorah !- I did try substituting the hot fill lead for the Bosch dishwasher, but the seal on the back of the machine just wouldn't seal 'cause AEG have used a non-standard shallow connector with an L-shaped rubber inside.

 

I wasn't expecting this to cure the E10 error on the washer as the mains pressure, which, from my measurements (Taken at the washer tap) had an average, over the last two days, of 2.5 Bar , 3 litres a minute, had dropped to 1.5 Bar and 1.5 litres a minute by 16.00 today - obviously  all the mums and kids are in doors using the washing machines and having baths and showers ! Nevertheless, I connected it to the washer, stuck it on rinse, and whilst it filled, slowly, it still threw out an  E10 error at 10 minutes into the rinse fill.

 

The best recorded water pressure I have had is 3 bar at 12 midnight. Pro temp, I may start doing the washing at night. That's going to fill the neighbours with brotherly love.

 

I think this is a Water Supply Company problem.

 

According to the Guarenteed Supply Standards set by OFWAT, the minimum specification for the supply should be 1 bar pressure (i.e. 10 metres head of water) and 9 litres a minute measured at the external SC in the front of the property. Yep, 9 litres a minute !.

 

Even assuming they were supplying  9 litres a minute at the external SC s, I don't think that would degrade into 1.5-3 litres a minute after travelling 10 metres in a 25mm plastic pipe from the external SC into the kitchen.

 

So next stop is to  report on the water company's web-site.

 

Apparently, if it can be proved that the water company has failed to supply to the OFWAT standard on two successive occasions in a month, then the consumer gets a £25 payment. I suppose that's not much use if you can't perform one of the basic functions of civilised life. I suppose I could always take the washing down to the local brook and start walloping it with a stone. Trouble is round here, a crowd may gather, as  it may bring back memories of a former  home life once removed.

 

Next time I get the annual water bill statement in, I will take great delight in completing the charity request for provision of water supplies in Third World countries by stating that my donation is conditional subject to them fixing my supply first.

 

 

Nick

 

 

I actually used to be in that situation; tail end of the pipeline; during a hot summer I often had NO water from 6-7am until  9-11pm. I had multiple tanks in the loft to store water for use during the day. I used to get more back in rebates for low pressure than I paid in rates. This was back in 1992-2000, the problems eased when they joined the Worcester pipelines to the Tewkesbury pipelines, however the Tewkesbury water always left a brown stain in my kettle.

I put on a half-load (3kg) of cottons @ 60 C for a thru wash-spin-dry  last night. Woke-up this morning, all done-and-dusted, nice and dry in the drum. No stoppages, No E10 user code, although  the E11 "Stored" code - low flow (For the engineers) did show.

 

Put on the same program  13:00 today @ 40 C and the machine tripped-out, within 15 minutes of the wash programme starting with an E10. Normally, the cottons program is as sound as a pound. You don't get any errors, possibly because of the way in which the water is introduced. The cottons program seems to fill with all the water it needs for each wash or rinse  at the beginning of each cycle, whereas the synthetics program appears to add water progressively and, therefore, is more vulnerable to a "Time-out" caused by low-flow.

 

Electrolux seem to be the only kindred manufacturer in the AEG/Zanussi/Electrolux grouping that refer to fill rates in their literature and they talk about 10 litres a minute being acceptable i.e. 3 times the best rate I get in late evening !

 

Joined-up Market capitalism dysfunctional, Nah, I won't hear a word of it.

 

And, allegedly,  the great-and-the-good (?)  are wondering how to stop the economies of the World falling-back into another slump. How about a massive infrastructure upgrading programme to transform the UK's 3rd World water supply into something fit for the 21st Century, for starters !

 

http://www.which.co.uk/energy/creating-an-energy-saving-home/reviews-ns/water-saving-products/water-efficient-washing-machines/

 

The above "Which"  article gives some more detail on the water-fill characteristics  of modern machines. It talks about 11 litres per kg for synthetics. So for a 3 Kg (Half-load for my machine) that's going to need 33 litres (about 7 gallons)  of water for a synthetics program. So, at the best fill rate my machine can achieve,  3 litres a minute, that's going to be 11 minutes or each fill - and my AEG machine is programed to time-out at 10 minutes if it hasn't completely filled. This also explains why running the machine from the attic tank hot-supply @ 6 litres a minute doesn't time-out.

 

The lowest pressure I have measured is 1.5 bar during weekdays @ 16:00. Clearly, the pressure for Sunday lunchtimes is lower - the cottons program has, as I look at it, 1 hour 40 mins still to go and is continuing to  throw out stoppages and E10s on each  rinse cycle.

 

If the water company starts stonewalling then I will take it to OFWAT, copying their CEO in and play the invalid card (Cardiac and Cancer) , or as those wonderful Tory MPs call it, "Shroud waving".  As I  can't see Boris or Dave, even with sleeves rolled-up, popping round on a regular basis to assist in pushing the re-start button every time the frigging thing times out, I'm afraid alternative problem solution tactics will be the "Order-of-the-day"  i.e.bureaucratic  "Clumping" .

 

Seems to me as if breach of contract action my be possible.

 

On that sub-theme, I was surprised to get an E-Mail the other day from my Electricity Supplier (Not yet the milkman, how unprogressive !) inviting me to register with them as a "Priority" customer in the case of "Electrical power outages"  - This is unprecedented as far as I'm concerned. 

 

I haven't yet registered. What's the point if you're already scheduled to turn your toes-up like an OAP in a Geriatic back ward i.e. through dehydration ?

 

 

Incidentally, anybody have experience of these devices as an alternative to the traditional stop-valve:-

 

http://www.surestop.co.uk/owners/

 

Primae facie looks like a good idea. Especially for us OAP's, who as we all know, are not fit to stand-up or chew gum. Or is that the politicians ?(Confused).

 

Nick

Edited 24 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

It's a board failure

(Water) Board failure - or is that what is declared when they're unsuccessful in silencing complainants ?

 

I think I'll wait 'til the wetness "Engineer" (Probably a techy in a boiler suit) prognosticates.

 

There definitely is a problem there with both below average water pressure and water flow and, its been cumulative over the last 20 years.

 

 Firstly, the local council, in pursuit of additional  Community Charge revenues and more housing units following government cutbacks,  has sanctioned 3 separate new build developments, 50 dwellings units in total, on my side of the road. This has occured in a road that's only a quarter of a mile long and which originally consisted of 90 houses, 45 on each side of the street. There's been no new water main upgrading on my side of the road, although there has been on the other side, but that feeds new community hospital a quarter of a mile distant from my road.

 

Secondly, with the initial privatisation of the local water supplier in the late 1980's and then the later sell-on, in the late noughties to the French water company Veoila (Renamed Affinity) must have presented at least two occasions when the bean counters were compelled to bear down on costs e.g. turning down the pressure and the flow-rate  reduces pumping costs, leaks and fractures.

 

And thirdly, there's been huge redevelopment of derelict land, about half a mile away, into a retail park, which again, must be sucking up the water supply in working hours.

 

I love to see the impact assessment that was done (or not) on each occasion by the official parties involved.

 

This low pressure/low flow manifestation isn't restricted to the washing machine. I have great difficulty now in re-charging my pressurised water central heating system. Basically, I'm now only successful in doing this after midnight now as it needs over 2 bar to push water into the system.

 

Similarly, attaching a hose to the kitchen outlet for a garden hose is a no-go now, so that using the Karcher or just a plain hose is near impossible - yet I'm still paying the supplement for those in the water rates.

 

And by the time you've filled a kettle you've grown a Jihadi beard, which may be right up the Bishop of London's progressive thorough fare, but not mine.

 

On the whole, its just not good enough.

 

 

Nick

Edited 24 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

PM, got what looks like a standard e-mail response from Affinity:-

 

"There are no known pressure issues reported in your area,  it could be isolated to your property. It may be useful for you to speak to any neighbouring properties to see if they are experiencing a reduction in their pressure. In most instances a mains supply problem would affect all properties in the area.

 

Initially we would advise you check all stop taps are fully open, it may also be worth you having a look around outside for any visible signs of a leak on the supply pipe, this is the pipe running from the boundary into your property. I note you are on a joint water supply with some neighbours, this may affect the flow and pressure you receive, also if you have old lead main going into your property it may be furred up affecting the flow and pressure, this pipe is your responsibility.

 

Affinity Water is responsible for the flow and pressure to the boundary of your property, the flow rate should be a minimum of 10 litres per minute here. The legal requirement of pressure we are obliged to supply you with here is 1 bar, however most of our properties have in the region of 2.5 bar. To test the pressure you have coming into your property from the main you can fill a gallon container from your cold kitchen tap and time it. If this fills in 30 seconds you have 1.5 bar, 20 seconds and you have 2 ¼ bar, any quicker and the bar will be higher.

 

If your pressure is below 1 bar or as in this instance too low for your requirements we would be happy to attend via an appointment to carry out a pressure and flow test, there is not a charge for this, we would require access to your internal stop tap which must be in good working order, this is necessary to be able to carry out the relevant checks.

 

Our appointment times are mornings between the hours of 8am and 1pm and afternoons 1pm and 4pm.  To book one if appropriate please ring our Contact Centre on XXXX XXX XXXX any of our Advisors would be happy to do this for you.

 

I hope this information is useful to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you wish to discuss further.

 

Kind regards

 

XXXXX XXXXXXX

Customer Service Advisor"

 

I had been busy all day taking the case off and  doing a quick strip down the washing machine and the fill and drainage pipes to check for any internal blockages/electrical problems. By the time I'd finished re-assembling and testing  the lot it was five o'clock.  And of course, during the testing the washer was timing out on all the cold rinse fills, after 10 minutes, and  it needed re-starting on each occasion, taking on average 15 minutes to fill the tub for just one rinse !

 

So I downed tools for a cuppa and saw the above E-mail waiting on the tablet.  As it  was weekday peak water demand  time, I thought, right, no time like the present to do their prescribed test. So I marked-up the sink bowl to  a 1 gallon level. It took 2 minutes to reach the mark using the cold tap at the sink !- that must equate to near zero pressure on their index ! A little time later I attached my pressure guage, it read 0.5 Bar and the flow rate was 3 litres a minute- just enough pressure to keep the inlet solenoids happy on the average AEG/Zanussi/Electrolux washer, but not enough flow to beat the time-out.

 

Those results are well below the legal minima that Affinity have stated in their e-mail.

 

Looks like Water is another of these industry's where the hours are worked to suit the professionals rather than the customer --" Our appointment times are mornings between the hours of 8am and 1pm and afternoons 1pm and 4pm.". How convenient, so an engineer attending my premises  to do measuring will miss the peak weekday demand period from 16:00 -17:00 and  13:00-15:00 on Sundays. Nothing like biasing the sample ! Outstanding.

 

Just to make sure, I wasn't being harsh,  I re-connected the washer to the hot-supply from the tank in the attic (Again this read 0.5 bar on the guage) and ran the rinse program - flawless no stoppages or error codes. Filled the washer tub in 7 minutes ( Equating to a flow-rate of 6 litres a minute or 2/3 of the legal minimum stated by Affinity ! Not exactly asking much to reach this, is it ? ).

 

I'm no water engineer but the variation in mains pressure from 0.5 bar during evening peak to 2.5 bar in late evening and 3 bar at 2 in the morning suggests to me that the water main being used hasn't got sufficient diameter and therefore capacity to meet peak demand.

 

Guess whose getting a call tomorrow !

 

It won't bode well for all this extra housing development Mr Goldsmith is promising in his London mayorial electoral campaign, if shoving-up 50 thousand new houses isn't accompanied by an appropriate increase in spend on public utility works.

 

 

Nick

Edited 25 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

Have you got a mains key ? can you go down to the isolator valve and crank it fully one way, then the other. (usually, near the edge of the property, sometimes on the property, sometimes just outside.

 

If there a fire hydrant near your property, could you ask the fire service to come and check THEIR pressure (probably a private company will do it for them, they dont send the engines and crews out checking very often any more).

 

Have you got any idea how long ago the pipes were laid, and do you get hard water? I saw pipes being replaced in Worcester a few years ago that were 80% blocked by limescale deposits and rust.

The water is hard round here - should be measured on the Brinell scale !

 

My supply pipes laid when the development was built, circa 1984/1985, assume plastic. Mains in road, probably 1920s (On my side of the road), so cast iron/steel ?

 

Any road, new mains key arrived today.

 

PM, went out and found  the external SC in the front garden buried under a load of ****e. After a bit of de-gunking and some nifty screwdriver action + the use of a 130mm inspection cover key (Also new today), managed to get the hinged lid to raise, only to find that the SC drain-pipe had about 6 inches of  muddy water obscuring the SC itself below.

 

Tried to connect the mains key with the SC " Blind". Not sure whether, I did it, but I think I managed what I thought was a couple of full 360 turns, anti-clockwise. Then checked the water flow from the cold sink tap in the kitchen -  worse than before, 2 litres a minute.

 

I need to clear the water  and mud at the bottom of the SC drain pipe - with my recent condition, I didn't fancy siphoning the water out using a garden hose (In case I got a mouthful) , so I've put a cheapo manual drum type siphon/pump on order.

 

Bearing in mind how dry its been round here (Compared with the rest of the country), I'm a little suspicious that the amount of water that's accumulated in the SC drain pipe isn't just groundwater - it may be a leak.

 

My connection to the mains is not without form in this respect, as 20 years ago, the public footpath pavement not 4 feet away from the External SC in my front garden, collapsed due to subsidence due to a supply leak at the junction of my supply with the water main underneath the pavement. Again, that was probably caused by  incompetent refuse and lorry drivers overriding the pavement when reversing from the public road into the service road that runs down the side of my property.

 

And, of course recently, plant -equipment low-loaders serving the building activities of yet another in-fill development up the public road have been using the service road on my "Estate"  to turn round in,  and, just before Christmas broke the re-inforced concrete BT inspection cover in the same area of pavement (Replaced last week - not as pretty as the original BT one - lets hope its got a bit of re-bar in it like the BT one, otherwise, the next lorry to go over it will do-in the inspection chamber and will probably require lifting-gear to get it out) - now you'd have though that the council might be considering installing a bit of Armco at this point, wouldn't you ?

 

Spoke to the Water Company on the telephone. Booked an engineers visit for a fortnight time. So we shall see. In the meantime, I'll  attempt to pump-out  and to clear the detritus in the bottom of the SC drain-pipe and try to use the mains key, hopefully sighted this time.

 

The customer services bod I spoke to at the WC  acknowledged that my area was known to them as a low-pressure area and stated that large- scale re-development  and infill development may contribute to the supply problem.  Despite advising her that the water pressure/flow was at its  worst 16-1800 weekdays and 1300 -1600 on Sundays she was only able to offer me, at best a weekday  PM appointment between 14:00-16:00. She also attempted to get the WC of the public relations hook by saying that the low pressure I was experiencing might be due to my supply being shared (I've got plan diagrams from the time of the build showing it isn't) and that immediate neighbours returning home from work might be causing the low-point 16:00-18:00 (Oh how she does not know the socio-economics of this area -most are retired, unemployed/sick social security types and those that aren't do night work at  pubs, clubs, factories, airport with a few office and shop workers chucked in for good measure etc).

 

 BUT, AS I POINTED OUT TO HER THE OFWAT LEGAL MINIMA FOR WATER SUPPLY MAKE NO STIPULATION AS TO TIME_OF_DAY. ITS 1 BAR,  9 LITRES A MINUTE,  MEASURED AT THE EXTERNAL SC,  AT ANY TIME OF DAY.

 

As a final saving grace repost to my comments she said the water company was considering installing a water pressure raising device in Harrow. Harrow is a big borough, at 30 sq miles in area. So it will have to be a fairly big one !.  Trouble is, I already got a fair idea where its going to be installed. About 3 miles away in Central Harrow . So no use to me. 

 

The back ground to this is that, using some "Boris" money, the council has decided (And got Central Government approval) to downsize and  plans to abandon the capacious 1970s  all-in-one civic centre and move to  more distributed  accommodation in a less selubrous part of the Borough a  half-a-mile up the road. The land released by this move, under the deal struck with the developer, will be used for mixed private and social housing in  multi-storey accommodation to house all the revolving door workers currently either living in sheds at the bottom of gardens, under motorway bridges and in parks or just alighting from their chosen lilos or artics at Dover. Good try Water lady - honestly, they must think the indigenous population just stepped-off the boat !

 

Developers are trying the same-on at Paddington and Chiswick at the moment courtesy of Mr Irvine (Shard) and another - one wonders how the impact assessment for the flight path for the third runway will reflect that particular "Blocking" potential, that's assuming there'd be enough space on the back of the fag packet to write any conclusions.

 

So, that's going to mean the rest of us will have wash once-a-month and don disposable clothing from now on.  Tim Peake will be able to smell us from space !

 

 

Nick

Edited 28 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

Soooorted ! Hydraulically, at least.

 

Drum siphon/pump arrived AM. So I busied myself emptying the water from the Drain pipe enclosing the external SC. Done in 5 minutes - very effective little unit - as long as its primed from a bucket bucket before hand so as to create a continuous stream of water in the pump and appendages before you start pumping the dirty stuff out.

 

With the water removed, the SC (3/4" square-head) was revealed. It was somewhat obstructed by a load of conjealed mud, so I poured some hot water from a bucket down the down the drain pipe, sloshed it around a bit and then pumped it out and that cleared it for action.

 

The SC was positioned off-centre in the drain pipe, almost flush against one of the sides (So either drain-pipe or SC had moved over the passage of time). I thought I was going to have problems engaging the business end of the mains key with it, but in the event it slotted-in and I was able to open the valve a couple of turns anti-clockwise.

 

Retreating in-doors to the kitchen I was able to measure the flow and the pressure which was now (@ 15:00) much improved at 4.2 bar and 12 litres a minute !

I took the opportunity to run a couple of rinse cycles on the machine and they ran end-to-end, with no stoppages and no error messages. However, the  increased water pressure was a little high at the monobloc sink tap as it was causing "Water hammer" when you turned the cold tap on and the valve was malfunctioning causing the water to stop if I turned on the cold tap too vigorously. So I decided to back off the supply, slightly,  at the external SC.

 

After, about half a dozen trips backward and forward between the kitchen and the external SC in the front garden, during which I applied successive clockwise turns (Or fractions of turns) to the external SC to close it down, and then assessing the effect at the monobloc in the kitchen,  I was able to get the monobloc cold water tap in the sink to operate correctly. The water pressure now shows 4 Bar exactly and it still delivers 12 litres a minute and the washing machine now stops admitting water in 3 minutes 15 seconds, drain starts at 5 Minutes 15 seconds and the rinse cycle ends at 8 minutes 40 seconds. No user error codes displayed during the cycle and no "Stored" error codes showing at the "Long-spin" position in the system diagnostics.  Job done ! 

 

Given that the pressure drop is 1 bar at peak times, then I would expect 4 bar @ 15:00 to drop to 3 bar  at peak weekday demand between 16:00-18:00. That's probably, 0.5 of a bar too high compared with Affinity's stated regional average, but I'll let it run for the time being and see what happens.

 

It would look then, as if pressure in the water main is OK (At the moment, or at least until the latest housing development in the road comes on stream) and that the cause of the low -pressure might have been the fact that my external SC was turned down a little too much at the time of the last repair (20 years ago) and that the in-fill housing development in the intervening period has caused the pressure to drop a bit more. Who knows, its all supposition.

 

I did notice that the external SC drain pipe, almostly immediately after me pumping it out, filled again with dirty water, so that it covered the SC. I suspect that is a leak rather than groundwater - we just haven't had the rain here to make the water table that high. So, I think I'll let the engineers visit stand.

 

Having upped the pressure, I'm now expecting the float valve in the cold-water tank to go on the fritz ! But at least the solenoid's on the washer won't give out, being brand new ?

 

Only remaining thing is to replace the cold water tap which connects with the washer cold fill pipe - that's developed a bit of an uncorrectable leak when in use and, the electrical problem with the front panel board on the washer is manifesting again i.e. the buttons not operating or invoking the function of another button on the panel. I reckon that's a fritzed front panel, but before changing it I'm going to measure the 12 and 5 Volt feeds from the main power supply board - working on the experience with self-build desktop computers, I'm fully aware how a failing power supply can screw downstream boards. So that will probably be about £160 for the two.

 

Still cheaper than £700 for a new'un.

 

Cuppa now and a spot of lunch !

 

 

Nick

Edited 29 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

"My supply pipes laid when the development was built, circa 1984/1985, assume plastic. Mains in road, probably 1920s (On my side of the road), so cast iron/steel ?"" Might be cast iron, wont be steel, possibility it is lead..... The ones I saw being lifted wee cast iron, and the houses on the street were mostly from late Victorian to late 1930's

 

Is your incoming pipe lead??

 

Around here, if you asked, Severn Trent would replace these incoming pipes with plastic FOC; this was a 12-15years ago; not sure what the currant situation is. I DO remember they didnt advertise it, you had to ask. I found out because step dad worked for them.

 

I got mine done at the same time as replacement sewage pipes and gas supply; on the basis that getting them all done at once was cheaper than repaving the drive 3 times.

Unfortunately, I was working when they repaired the supply leak in the footpath outside my place, so I am not clued-up as to the type of connection to the mains or the piping material used externally. Similarly,  when I took a peek yesterday, the piping joining the external SC in my front garden was obscured by mud and muddy water .

 

As far as the  incoming pipe to  the riser emerging from  the concrete floor in the kitchen is concerned, its hidden by the kitchen cabinet base.

 

The immediate take-off from the mains could well be lead and of 1920s/30s origin, as the development of 8 1980s back-to back terraced one bedroomed places , in one block, that I live in,  was built on a site previously occupied by two three-bedroomed 1920/30s houses. And I know that all the 1930s houses round here had lead cold supply pipes to the risers in the kitchen and, more often than not,  the internal water supply piping was lead throughout the house.

 

I know  that each of the four  one-bedroomed house (Including my place)  facing the public road has an external SC in the front garden (I visually checked yesterday to confirm this) . But, who knows how the Water Company, at the time,  effected the connection from the mains. Logically, there are at least five possible types of connection schema, two of which may utilise one or both of the 1920/30s lead water main connections either as far as a manifold or a Y- splitter, before the connection to the current external SCs. Hopefully, the water engineer will be informed on this.

 

Assuming that the external SC was originally centred in the pipe enclosing it, then it looks now like there has been a small amount of movement of  the drain pipe enclosing the external SC - about 1.5 inches . Whether that's consequential on the previous  leak-induced subsidence in the public footpath of twenty years ago, my action 16 years ago in exchanging a grass lawn for pea-shingle laid on hardcore, or a possible unconnected current leak, who knows. Movement of that sort could probably put a crease a lead pipe in compression or torsion leading to a fracture, or in tension could cause a dry lead pipe  to part shear. Plastic pipes might be more resistant to compression, but might well become insecure at a connection to a foreign material under tension or torsion. My feeling is that, with the fall of the land from the house to the road (house is two feet higher over a span of 15 feet) any pipe failure would occur in compression nearer the water main than the house.

 

I think it will be worth my while next week to check whether the water level has risen in the external SC enclosure.

 

On further examination of spares availability for the washer, it would appear as if the main power supply PCB is no longer available, whilst the front panel is. Do I take the risk at £88 for the front panel  alone ? I'm inclined to do nothing, as the basic wash/rinse/dry programs are operating normally without issuing any error codes and the only functionality that is lost/intermittent is the ability to select "Specialist" functions, through depression of dedicated plastic buttons on the control panel facsia,  such as, delayed start, stain treatment, soak, programme  time saving, rinse hold, store dry/iron dry alternatives. I rarely use these functions - that said, fatigue failure would be ruled-out.

 

 

Nick

Edited 30 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

Affinity, you better watch out, it might be them that is running your pension services, well if not them their mates Equinity or Fidelity, brilliant names these companies pay someone to think up!

 

Seeing your pressure issues reminds me to check what my current mains pressure is and log it (sad - yes) I think that I have been given the freedom to adjust my pressure when ever I think it needs done - well that was the impression I got after I stopped our water board's contractor digging up the area around our pressure regulator!

 

So for me that means - open kitchen tap fully, check all other water demands or "off" , fit pressure gauge to tap in garage and record a few readings, and log for (maybe) future reference along with all other comms from water board over the years.

So, the definition of a vexatious customer is now two service requests in 35 years ! Yeah.

 

Clue - Attempting to play Stasi state in the era of self-publicity ain't a good game plan.

 

Affinity is just the trading name of Vieloa, a French Utilities company.

 

The piping up to the external SC is water company property, anything after that is yours.

 

Nick

 

 

On our development, there is an "air valve" at the main delivery pipe, then it branches on to individual properties and when within each plot there is a SC, the "air valve" chamber also contains the local individual line pressure regulator, so it is still water company property.

Acknowledged. Honestly, judging by the rest of the building work done  on this site, I don't think the connection will be that sophisticated .or code compliant The building development was a real cheesepairing, canny developer job, where costs have been minimised - even some of the joists used in the 1985 construction appear to have been recovered from the demolished 1930s houses that used to sit on the site. And as for the electrics . . . .earth bonding lines that ran under the bath ! 

 

This  Citizens advice article seems to give a good description of where the responsibility for maintenance of each piece of pipe should lie and gives an indication whether repair charges, if any,  are levied on the householder:-

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/water/water-supply/saving-water/water-leaks/

 

It confirms GG's advice (Posted above) that in certain circumstances the water companies will contemplate a shared or subsidised (Fixed Fee) for repairs to the "Supply pipe" that lies within the householder's property boundary.

 

These Water Safe bullet points give the position regarding operation of the stop-valve ("Turning-off the water") and water hammer in the supply pipe ("Noisy pipes"):-

 

https://www.watersafe.org.uk/advice/common_plumbing_questions1/

 

According to them,  "Water Hammer" in the supply pipe is indicative of air trapped in the SC caused by a possible leak.

 

My experience over the past week has been that when I've operated the under sink SCs in the kitchen, the gland always starts weeping - because they haven't been operated for a long time and, in all cases, it was simply cured by  judiciously tightening-up the gland nut. So that might explain the "Water hammer" effect I got after  I first opened-up the external SC.

 

But it probably doesn't explain why the external SC was submerged in muddy water when I first examined it (And before I did anything).

 

According to a lot of the plumbers forums and contrary to some of the formal advice in the Watersafe web post,  the water company won't be too concerned if the householder has operated the external SC, especially if there is a risk of serious flood or potable water contamination.

 

The SC did turn extremely freely when  I operated it.

 

I think there is a leak somewhere near the junction of the "Communication pipe" and the "Supply pipe".

 

I.ve seen the water engineers listening for small underground leaks using a 5 -foot long ear trumpet device.  I don't think the pins on my engine stethoscope will reach down the full length of the  external SC drain enclosure, so I won't be able to confirm a leak this way.

 

All I can do is check on the level of the water in the external SC drain enclosure tomorrow. If its risen in the SC drain enclosure, then that might suggest a leak on the "Supply pipe" side of external SC (As the valve was  opened up (By me) to allow increased pressure (4 Bar) in the supply pipe), if its at the same level as last week, then the leak might be in the "Communication pipe" - the gradient in the land is from the "Supply pipe" side (Higher) to the "Communication pipe" (Lower).

 

Either way, it needs attention from the Water Company, if only to prevent bacterial and fungal ingress from the soil into my water supply and the water main.

 

With storm "Henry" oncoming, here's hoping its "Winter, not today", tomorrow:-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbzop5uITeU

Nick

Edited 31 January, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

Checked the external SC enclosure yesterday and it had refilled with clearish water to the same level.

 

I hand-pumped this out, again, and within and hour it had re-filled. I'd say that's definitely a water supply leak and I've reported it.

 

Pro-temp, I'll be boiling the drinking water.

 

I've closed down the SC to minimise the loss. Whilst doing that, I did notice that at the SC, the difference between a flow of 12 litres a minute and about 6 litres a minute is less than one-eighth of a turn of the key. So its very difficult to get exactly the right flow to suit the washing machine. For instance, if it was set at 6 litres a minute and I was using the cold tap at the kitchen sink whilst the washing machine was on a rinse cycle then the machine would time-out and stop with an insufficient flow error message. So, pro temp, I left the flow set at 7.5 litres a minute/3.8 Bar - this seems to keep the WM happy !

 

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did the classic last night, of taking a part-working machine to bits in order to resolve the last remaining faults and ended-up with a totally not working machine. !

 

The last remaining faults were the non-functioning and malfunctioning buttons on the front controls panel -  I suspected that I hadn't cleaned it properly last time or that there was a crack in the board..

 

On close inspection, after removal, the front panel board,  which has the front panel button switches surface mounted on it,  was fine.

 

However, the main board, which I hadn't removed or inspected before, had evidence of past short-circuiting - carbonised dust burning marks covering a small number of  circuit tracks on the rear of the board and over some components on the front of the board (Resistor, diode, mini -transformer). This had occurred in the area surrounding the sockets reserved for the communication leads coming from the front panel. Ah Hah !

 

With this debris, I was fully expecting to find an exploded or badly damaged resistor, some well-inflated capacitors with the tops off and broken circuit tracks on the rear of the board, but when I wiped away the small amount of carbon dust, all appeared well and the capacitors and resistors measured to values which were  within tolerances of the printed values on them. However, there was one diode in the effected area which appeared to allow current to pass both ways. Additionally, I noticed that there was a barely visible spider crack  deep in layers of  the PCB, shorting-out a couple of the tracks. It appeared to be well carbonised. Ah Hah2 !

 

On consulting the web authorities, the consensus seems to be that the front control board rarely fails and that if you experience problems with the buttons on the control panel, as I did, that a partially failed main PCB is the culprit.

 

I re-assembled the whole thing and tested and it just wouldn't start - kept getting Error Code E90 and using the diagnostics (Which still worked) E 93 -3 which, I understand is a PCB fault related to communication between the front controls board and the main PCB.

 

I'll have another go at it this morning, but I reckon the main PCB has now finally turned-up its toes, probably as a result of me removing and re-installing it. And it appears its probably failed due to a latent manufacturing fault in the layers of the PCB (Spider crack), as all the top-face surface mounted components seem OK .

 

I couldn't find the main PCB replacement part on AEG spares' we-site, although I noticed that the plastic PCB enclosure was listed as obsolete. And 10 minutes later AEG's Call Centre at Newton Ayclifee confirmed that the main board was obsolete and that, even it hadn't been it was an "Unconfigured" board and would have required a service engineer to programme it before it could be used.

 

I have noticed that the main PCB manufacturer, GE Procond, have got a web presence which offers PCB repairs - I wonder ? 

 

I would suspect though,  that the crack in-between the PCB layers would make this a non-starter ?

 

It such a shame to bin the machine such as this, which is in otherwise A+++ condition, for one piddling component.

 

Equivalent new one from AO or JL is £550.

 

Anyone ?

Edited 4 February, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

Got it running again. No stoppages. No fault codes. All the buttons on the control panel working flawlessly.

 

As usual, I'm not sure what I've done apart from take it apart. test the forward cabling for continuity and re-assemble it again, (All the cabling tested Ok). But it is now working without faults.

 

It just needed a "Configration Code" entering via the control fascia on the front of the machine, using the buttons in conjunction with the programme selector.

 

This info courtesy of a post that I spotted on "Just answers" for a later model machine.

 

It advised that AEG machines need configuring/re-configuring (As Newton Aycliffe advised this morning) when the main board is disconnected (Which is what I did last night) because a configuration value stored in the memory of that board is lost or the association with the display board is lost - interesting that's its not lost when the power is turned-off at the mains - EEPROM'd ?

 

However, contrary to Newton Aycliffe's advice it doesn't need to be done by a service engineer. It can be done my anyone who is methodical and who has access to the configuration number.

 

The configuration value is a sixteen digit hexdecimal, which on AEG machines, is printed on a label stuck to the top of the main board plastic enclosure - lucky I noted it down when I had the lid off.

 

On my machine, the first digit  of the hexdecimal number  was being displayed on the LED display when the machine was in diagnostics mode, with the programme selector set to short spin - but it didn't "Click" with me what this was until I read the "Just Answers" post.

 

So the procedure on my machine, was first to select diagnostics mode.

 

You do this my simultaneously holding down the "Prewash" (Button 1) and "Soak" (Button 2) buttons on the control facsia whilst turning the programme selector clockwise to the first position - which in my machine is cotton/Linens programme @ 95C.

 

The red LED display at first shows, as normal, the programme run time length (In this case 161 minutes), and then, as long as you keep the "Prewash" and "Soak" buttons depressed, it then shows "OC" and beeps. This indicates the machine has entered diagnostic mode.

 

Shortly afterward all the fascia lights switch on and off in sequence, starting with the LED light (No 1)  next to button 1 and going down each rank of lights, through each row (8 maximum) and then across to the next rank (4 in total) until   reaching the end light (number 24) in the final rank. Whilst the machine is going through this sequence, the LED display is tested by sequential illumination of the vertical and horizontal elements of each character in the display field.

 

The whole lights/display testing cycle will go on, ad nauseum, until the machine operator breaks out of the sequence. You need to do this to get to the stage where you can enter the configuration number.

 

You do this by turning the programme selector knob clockwise, without stopping,  from position one to  to "Long-Spin" (Position 22) You are then shown the "Stored" fault code used by engineers - this an alphanumeric, which, for AEG, is usually of the for EXX, x being a numeral.If there's no fault code it will show. E00.

 

Then turn the programme selector to the final position (Position) "Short-spin" and the LED display will then show, going left to right, two alpha numeric characters, each in a separate hexdeimal series  - before reading the "Just Answers" post, I had thought these were associated with the error codes i.e. a sub-type. Silly me.

 

The first  character (Left hand side of the display) will be the hexdecimal character representing the position of the character (displayed to the right) in the hexdecimal  (16 character) configuration code. The second character (Right-hand side of the display) is the  hexdecimal character of the actual code.

 

To enter a  new code, its a bit like sticking a network encryption password into one of the current generation of computer printers. You just have to go through each of the 16 entries in the series in succession, in pre-determined Hex order (0 to F),  by pressing the button 1 (The "Prewash" key) to increment (In  a hex ordered loop)  the characters displayed in the right hand position for each displayed character position in the configuration code. When you find the character in the right hand position of the display which matches the  corresponding character position in the configuration code,  you press button 2 (The "Soak") and this stores the character and increments the display to the next entry. Once you entered the 16 values of the configuration code and are happy, pressing buttons 1 and 2 together will store the complete 16 character configuration code.

 

The machine will then momentarily display the stored Error Code before going blank. Then, if the operator then moves the programme selector one further position clockwise to the "OFF" position (Position 0), the diagnostics procedure will then close down and indicates it is doing so my momentarily showing OF, before going blank.

 

Note, its only necessary to enter a configuration code if you have changed the old main board for a new one. In my case, I was simply re-installing an existing main board that had been associated with this machine. In this case the machine (Presume main board) retains the number and presents it in hexdecimal succession for approval. So that all that I needed to do,  was, for each entry,  to confirm the selection i.e. the number being shown in the right-hand part of the  display by successively pressing button 2. At the end of the hex sequence, I then pressed buttons 1 and 2 to store/associate the number (In the display board ?)

 

Much relieved bunny here.

 

 

Nick

Edited 4 February, 201610 yr by Clunkclick

So it is working for now, but you also now know the board is getting old and damaged, so time to start saving for that new machine- hopefully, by the time this one fails you will have saved enough to buy one finished in gold plate.